Since a lot of folks also count shots on opening day, here's my experience for comparison.
 
Hunted 1B for the first time on an opening day.  A lot of ag land (corn and soybeans) with some good sized wooded areas and swamps...probably decent deer density.  I tried to count as well as I could with the noise of a loud highway.  By the time I saw my first deer at 10:30 I had counted to 250.  I'm sure I missed some of the far distant ones with the traffic but tried my best to keep track.
 
In contrast, where I hunt in 3A, most years you bored and quit counting before hitting 100.  But that's hill country and sound doesn't travel as far.

Big Tuna 

At this rate what's the future going to be for the Pa. deer hunter?

 
 
I think things will somewhat cycle back the other way, in spite of the PGC, not because of them.  It will be slow and more difficult to notice, but I think we will see a rebound in the big woods area deer populations.  More and more hunters becoming discouraged enough by PGC's HR policies will quit or hunt somewhere else.  And there won't be as many new hunters joining the ranks.

anzomcik

Big Tuna
It seems like more hunters are content with the way things are,way less deer,maybe bigger bucks in some areas but not all.

You are correct on some of this (This would be regarding my personal situtation). I am content, everyone I hunt with, and personally know is content.

The way less deer part may be "in some areas but not all".  I feel the population in the area I hunt and the people I personally know is good, healthy, and strong. No complaints

Bigger bucks, YUP we got them, and every year more of them. AR IMO is working wonders in my area. But then again I may be going to bat just to strike out, or going fishing just to release my catch.

Let me ask you this, what would you do to improve this problem you are always talkign about? Lets hear the plan to fix the deer herd. Keep in mind budget constraints and real world issues that the PGC face every day.

I understand what your trying to say, and I also understand we may be 100s of miles apart. We will probably never meet let alone hunt in each others area. But understand for some people in the state this is the golden age of deer hunting, with good population numbers and the potential for great bucks, bucks that would be almost unimaginable 10 years ago.

How would you change the regulations to improve your issue with out significantly altering the great hunting that wasnt possible 10 years ago that others are experiencing?
I know this may be an over simplified and a view from the other side of the fence, but if you like deer hunting enough to get be upset over, why not do what you would do with fishing, if the fish aint biting you change spots. Why not go to other areas?

I know I am, and I beleive Big Tuna, is, just trying to provide a frame of reference.  I do not see deer hunting today as great as a few on here do.  Why?  Because I have seen better, much better, in PA.
 
Here is what I mean by a frame of reference in an analogy.
 
Let's say a person 1 had had a few junker cars in their life, but after getting a their first decetn job, they decide to buy a new car.  What fits their budget is a Chevy Cruze.  They love it.  It is new.  It doesn't break down.  It doesn't smell.  It is the best car they have ever owned.  It is just great.
 
Person # 2, who has owned a Corvette ZR-1, a Benz E-Class, a BMW 7 Series, a Viper, etc. throughout their life is forced, through no act of their own (like the PGC changing rules and seasons) to now buy a new Chevy Cruze.  It is new and provides basic transportation.
 
Now person 1 and person 2 meet by chance in a parking lot.  Person 1 notices another Cruze owner and starts a conversation that extolls the greatness of the vehicle, which to them is gospel.  When person 2 tries to provide a little perspective that, yes the Cruze provides reliable, basic transportation, but it is far from a great car, person 1 tells them how they don't know what they are talking about and that person two does not know what person 1 needs in a car to be happy, etc.  All person 2 was doing was providing a different frame of reference based on vastly more experience.
 
Here is another view on frame of reference.  I have two English Pointers.  Darty is 10 and Dyson, his son, is five.  When I use them to guide, I introduce the dogs by their registered name first and then their kennel name -- this is Dartanian and we call him Darty and this is Dyson we call him knucklehead.  They just are no the same dog.  Darty is a robot, Dyson is a clown and sometimes a slacker.  Keep in mind that Dyson is a PA Pheasant Huntng Champion.  That means he is far from a poor birddog.  In fact, he is a darn good one.  But, from my frame of reference, which is Darty, also a Champion, Dyson just does not measure up and never will.  If I didn't have Darty, I would think that Dyson was great.  Heck, the average hunter would be thrilled ot have a birddog 25% as good.  But from my frame of reference, he is not as good as I have seen.
 
Same said for deer hunting.  While some, from their frame of reference think it is great, for those of us that have a different frame of reference, do not think so because we have seen it be much better.
 
And if anyone thinks the last 10 years have been great, or even good, then they do not understand what it was like in the 70's, 80's, or 90's.
 
BTW, as an overview of my 2012 season, I saw 13 deer the opening day of rifle -- three of which were bucks.  I shot the only one that I could ID as legal, a six point.  That was at 9:45 AM.  With regard to shots, I heard about 50, with six being within 1,500 yards or so.  If it weren't for the silly AR rule, it almost felt like the old days, but with less shooting.  I saw no other hunters in the woods.
 
On the opeing day of antlerless season, I hunted a different area and my wife and I sat together and we saw a total of 12 deer, both harvesting one.  We heard less than 20 total shots by 2 PM.
 

    Have bout the same point of reference as DAR- 50 yrs of Deer hunting- Mine has been in many different states- inc PA-back in the  day-lol.  It all comes down to point of reference.
  One  point is similar in most all of those states- As Doe tags significantly increased the gross Deer populations significantly suffered.  I would agree that some doe must be harvested however in moderation,
  Other influences are in play as well such as  maturing of  forest lands and decreased agriculture - but NOTHING is as fast acting  as aggressive Doe reduction.
  Here in Ct its 2 Deer in Rifle ( 1 any deer -1 doe) - 2 in Muzzel ( 1 any deer- 1 doe)- 4 in bow( 2 any -2 doe) and one ( any deer) on State lands. 
  BUTTT if ya shoot 2 doe in rifle or Muzzzel ya get an EXTRA Doe tag in each season -  a reward for killin Does.
 A guy can go out and kill 11 Doe in one year--or- on the regular tags 9 Deer total including as many as 5 bucks -- thats NUTS. 
  And you guys thought PA was the only one-- At least we dont have 3 up--yet.
   Over harvest is our worst enemy and we do it ourselves- I do NOT believe Buck harvest hurts the Herd as one  can breed many doe and therefore -in moderation- that harvest has little impact -IMHO.
 

I completely agree with you Anzo. I hunted the ANF in the 80s and all of the 90s. What good was seeing tons of doe(50 by lunch) if you NEVER saw a buck! Im talking spikes and y bucks. I am much happier seeing less deer but seeing way more big bucks every season! The last day of archery we saw 6 different bucks in Crawford Co. 4 were very legal. These are the good old days. I also believe the deer herd will cycle around. Less hunters= less kills. I would not change a thing. If you don't like your spot -MOVE or buy(lease) your own land.  That is the future, like it or not.

I will say it again for S10, I moved. I didnt't like the area I was hunting. Anyone can do the same. EFFORT=REWARD

Did one ever wonder what happened to all the little spikes and forkhorns you saw back in the heyday? Age makes larger bucks. These little bucks changed their patterns and were there all along as older and larger bucks; just took a different approach and skills to find them. The older hunters, who put in the efforts back then, always found them. ...WF

Noplacelikehome

I completely agree with you Anzo. I hunted the ANF in the 80s and all of the 90s. What good was seeing tons of doe(50 by lunch) if you NEVER saw a buck! Im talking spikes and y bucks. I am much happier seeing less deer but seeing way more big bucks every season! The last day of archery we saw 6 different bucks in Crawford Co. 4 were very legal. These are the good old days. I also believe the deer herd will cycle around. Less hunters= less kills. I would not change a thing. If you don't like your spot -MOVE or buy(lease) your own land.  That is the future, like it or not.

Do you believe having less deer means more bucks? I'm not so sure that having fewer deer is related to having more bucks. Basically, I'm saying HR (the reason there are fewer deer) is not the reason many of us are seeing more bucks. AR on the other hand has helped my buck hunting.
 
On the topic of moving to hunt another area....
I hunt on property owned by my parents. It's a few hundred acres of old farmland which has several cornfields and greenfields. surrounded by selective clear cut woods which are very thick and provide the deer with lots of browse and bedding cover. The rest of the woods on the property is thick with oaks, and other food. Basically, the deer have great habitat with more food and cover than they need.
 
Since I grew up there, and lived there until i was in my early 20's, I came to know the property like the back of my hand. Although I don't live on the property right now, I still visit it weekly, since my parents live there, and because I scout it often, on foot and with trail cameras. By the time archery season comes around, there's not much guesswork involved for me. I know which oaks are dropping acorns, and which ones are drawing in deer. I know which trails are being used and I know which trees the deer are walking by. This comes from spending more days scouting than sitting in a tree.
 
Years ago, Seeing 10 deer in a day of archery hunting wasn't out of the ordinary. Seeing 20 - 30 wasn't uncommon in a day of rifle hunting. Even with those deer numbers, the deer we killed were fat and well fed. We'd even kill bucks after the rut that still had somewhat of a fat reserve left on their body. I guess what I am saying is the habitat can support these deer numbers, and thinning the herd here is unnecessary.
 
This year in archery and rifle season combined, I saw 10 deer total. Last year, I saw 13. I did manage to see some great bucks the past two years, and kill my biggest buck to date. Most years I fill my buck tag in archery, and save a doe tag for rifle season. To some, seeing only 10 deer would be very disapointing, but it didn't bother me, since I was still succesful.
 
In a number of years, I'll inherit this property. Along with it, I'll inherit the expense of property taxes and maintenance which are not by any means cheap. The only use I'll have with this property is hunting. I'm not going to farm it, or use it for bird watching, or four wheeler riding, or whatever else... To me, it's place where I go to hunt, which, besides fly fishing, is my only other hobby. Since my work is fly fishing, hunting is more of an escape, and being able to go to my own property and not be bothered while doing it, makes it even better.
 
If deer numbers in my area continue to drop (which I doubt they will) and it becomes rare to see a deer, which it has in areas of the state, what's the point of spending money on property? Also, there is something to be said about ground that is ideal for deer, having next to no deer on it. If the excessive number of tags offered in my WMU would result in so few deer that ideal ground becomes nearly void of deer, and useless for deer hunting, I'd be mad enough at the PGC that I wouldn't have any desire to buy a license. It wouldn't seem fair to have to hunt somewhere else, due to bad management. Let me say, that I'm content with the number of deer I'm seeing, along with the size of bucks I'm killing, and this is just hypothetical, but it is the way I'd feel. So, I can understand a person not wanting to have to move somewhere else to find deer.

Your math on the 3y buck is taking the simple route not thinking about it might take 1 buck in 10 that make it there. With AR that % has changed to improve the odds.
 
I agree with you on 25% of does are button bucks. But thats a % that is always going to be. No real way of controling that, you cut the number tag you will have people complaining they didnt get there tags...
 
What is a stable herd? I heard nonhunters come in where i work complainign there is to many deer "there every where, i hit two this year, eating my flowers, birdfeeder there six there in the morning everyday..." I hop on the internet people say "hunting sucks, no deer, I quite..." I have gone spotting this past summer to see at least 75 deer in one field only to go a mile or two down the road and see nothing in the several fields i hit. How can you manage that?
 
I didnt check your number on the greatest total number of deer entered, I will take that to be correct.  
 
I did check what were the biggest deer on the books for PA
typical rack rifle kill: 1 in 5 were from AR era. 20% 
Typical rack Archery: 3 in 5 were from AR era. 60% in the last 10 years
NonTypical rifle kill:  1 in 4 from AR era. 25%
NonTypical Archery: 38 in 66 from AR era. 57.7% in last 10 years
 
Dates going back to the 1930s, so in the last 80 years you should expect to have about 12% of those kills in each decade (it was easy to group them as the 70's, 80's, 90's, then AR era).
 
So group average should be 12%, since Ar its 20% and 25% for rifle kills. Close to Double when you average them together. So 1 year before AR had a outstanding year, great that happens when you collect data. Would you hope to hunt on a banner year (1 year of 70 years), or have your odds double the statical average of a record book deer?
 
I understand the archery stats are out of this world for record book kills, the reason for a overhelming improvment is equitpment, better tools for scouting, and advantages there were not available 15 years ago. To say it is all AR would be foolish, how much of that is equiptment tools and stuff I dont know. But i know this even when you remove a fudge factor for that you are still at an austounding number. Has there always been mature bucks, like i said before YES. The difference is now we are starting to a higher popultion of them.
 
If you really think your plan is the right way we should manage the deer herd then why not start trying to get somthing rolling. You have the plan start getting more people involved. We all know in a week this thread will be dead, and it will start up next setpember with the same stuff being said. Nothing will really come from this

Archery equiptment is 100% better then in my day. We used long bows or recurves. Quads get us in where we had to walk. Season,way back, was way shorter and you could not hunt the rut till about early 70's. The advent of trail cams, food plots and leases is a very recent development.  The hunting shows, with management bucks and shooters having to be 5 years old ,along with a different attitude amoung hunters with what they want to hunt. Try these factors when praising the PGC with the program. Also, 10% of 100 bucks is more then 25% of 25 bucks...WF...apples to apples

Big Tuna
Anzomic,your numbers don't add up.  Archery has really taken off in the last 10-15 years so the numbers may look a little better than you thinks.
 
Those 75 deer you spotted ,posted land maybe?
 
 Do you know what a 125 class buck looks like? Well try to get a pope and young buck. TV hunting shows got you putter hunter a little crazy.

 
First part of the quote,  Explain how they do not add up, and Did you even read what i wrote? I made light of the advancements and there should be a fudge factor for those advancements.
 
Those 75 deer were on private property, but no posted signs. Are you saying i should spot the game lands in my area? Or do those deer not count because they were not on public land? Are you hunting on public land?
 
The last part, take a chill pill. You do not know me personally, i have said nothing to degrade you so how about you show the same respect. Our opinions may not be the same, that doesnt mean we cant discuss this like adults and leave the name calling out of this. 
 
Also if you wouldnt mind could you please post some pics of the racks you have got, I am not trying to check what your saying is true. I like photos and think it would be neet to see these bushell baskets of antlers. Show us some photos, I am asking for them so it cant be called bragging if someone asks specifly.
 

My first year in 40 years of hunting I never saw a horn.
They really have been pounding the deer here "around home" and it is beginning to show..
 

anzomcik

Great examples, and very well written.

I may not have the years under my belt as you, however i also hunted more than a few years before the AR. But I did not hunt during the 70s or 80s. Again I understand the frame a reference.

I am left wondering why is it always a reference back to the old times and complaining about the oppertunitys we have now? I was raised that if there is somthing your always complaining about, do what you can to make it better. Being I never can experience what you have seen or done I am asking what would be the coarse of action you feel would be good for the majority of the state.

I know little will likely amount from a forum discussion, but I can respect an opinion more if I see there is a well thought out plan to improve what the person feels is lacking, and not just a complaint that is repeated over and over again with little beyond the inital complaint.

So what we have right now is the starting point, what needs improved and what are the ideas on how to improve it?

 
I'll tell you exactly what we did to make a difference -- the eight guys that are good to excellent hunters at the hunting camp near where I hunt antlered deer and myself have not shot a doe in that area over the last five years.  Not exactly the PGC plan.  We were to the point that hunting three to six days resulted in spotting less than a dozen deer per season.  Private ground, but public welcome.
 
We figured that we saved anywhere from six to 16 (depending on tags) adult does per season.  That is a net increase of at least 30 deer over five years.  With fawns figured in, we probably increased the herd by nearly 100 deer over that time span.  The result?  I saw 13 deer on opening day by 10 AM, inlcuding three bucks.  The guys at that camp shot a 9, 10, and 11 on the opening of rifle.  One of them saw seven different bucks the last day of archery.  Go figure, more deer, more bucks, and some decent ones.  How?  By limiting the doe kill and increasing the herd.  Gee, that sounds like how it was in the 70's, 80's and into the 90's.  Imagine that.
 
As for anterless deer, I hunt private ground that is posted solid and nestled among about 2,000 acres of equally locked down ground.  There there is a doe problem. And we take care of it.
 
So, the solution, stop messing with WMU's, they are too big and too varied to manage.  Get back to the county level.  Counties that need deer shot, and there still are some, do it with tags and long seasons.  Counties that don't need deer shot, cut the allocations, perhaps in half, and cut the season length drasticall until they rebound. 

How do you guys turn an " overview of 2012 season " thread into politics? I guess it could be how you interpret the thread title. But I don't think it was meant for that. Anyhow, finally filled a buck tag on Saturday. 7 pt. with a 20" outside spread, came thru on the natural and we busted him out the window of the cabin. He ended up with a 50 and a 54 cal. hole. the 54 double lunged him and the 50 hit the shoulder. The young fellow I took hunting has never seen a buck while hunting let alone shoot one. So he tagged the deer and took the trophy home. Not many can say they busted their 1st buck with a smoke pole.
 
BH

This kid put his time in. I was glad to be a part of his 1st buck. I asked him what the difference between that 7 point and say if a 140 class 10 point came thru. He said "what". I said " how sore your knee would have been after I kicked you in it". Hard to shoot a deer from the cabin floor...........LOL
 
BH