posted creek beds

Got into a conversation with a guy at work that claims all of Erie Tributaries are considered "navigable" and therefore are owned by the commonwealth.  I know this to be incorrect but can't find where "the law" states that lake Erie's tributaries are Non-navigable.  He says that since they are connected to lake Erie (a navigable waterway) that the law states the tributaries are navigable too.  Some help clearing this up would be apprieciated.

im gonna go ahead and assume your "friend" is not a member of the bar association. 

StevenB

Check out Chapter 63, Section 4. This should clear it up.

http://www.pacode.com/sec...apter63/chap63toc.html

If I'm interpreting this correctly, land owners own the land leading up to the creek AND they own the bed of the stream. So even if you wade up through the water, you could still get busted for trespassing.

In non-navigable private waterways, the extent of ownership would depend on what is stated on the deed, which can vary and make each case unique.  But they certainly can own the entire streambed and adjacent land, which again depends on the circumstances.
 
Here is some more information from the PFBC regarding public access right for waters of the Commonwealth:  http://fishandboat.com/water/public/faq_public_waters.htm
 

StevenB

Check out Chapter 63, Section 4. This should clear it up.

http://www.pacode.com/sec...apter63/chap63toc.html

If I'm interpreting this correctly, land owners own the land leading up to the creek AND they own the bed of the stream. So even if you wade up through the water, you could still get busted for trespassing.

CRAP! I grew up being told lanowners can own the land up to the streams' edge, but NOT the substrate [stream bed] itself, therfore one could wade up/down a stream for access if they did not cross private property. 

WOW  Again this year!  Ok here's the truth!  In what is deemed a navigable stream the landowner controlls up to the mean high water mark.  That means the average normal high water mark.  NOT during a flood.  The actual waters must have been able to support commercial traffic, during a proportional portion of the year.  7-8 months is the average considered.  Using a creek for commerical waterborne traffic (the movement of goods for sale) cannot be limited to flood or just high water.   There are NO,  repeat NO, creeks in Erie that fulfill this requirement. Yes 100-150 years ago there was commercial traffic of logs down stream duing Flood conditions in Erie, but seasonal flooding is not considered year-round.  This was the basis for opening the Little Juniata to all fishermen.  The water is deep enough ALL YEAR (with exceptions for drougt conditions) to support commercial traffic on the waterway.  And it did untill the advent of the rail traffic.  Again, NO creeks in Erie meet this requirement.  About the only Creek that MIGHT  would be the Connie.  And that hasn't been tested in court.
     The ruling is that on a non-navigable creek the landowner owns the land to the middle of the creek, unless surveyed otherwise.  So if a person owns BOTH sides of a creek they can prevent passage thru their property.  There are NO if's, and's, or But's to this ruling. (see 20 mile above the bridge).  Now a possible exception could be made for water flowing downstream from a boat launch; IF the launch and the boats on it were engaged in commerical traffic.  But that water in erie is all controlled by the PFBC already.

steelie85

As long as you stay in the stream

 

"Indy" and cold are 100% correct...there are no exceptions.

This is a very old law that should be over turned.the stream bed law was made so ranchers that owned land on only one side could own the stream bed to water their cows.

Im about to yak from folleys down to legion on elk swingin streamers drinkin brewskis.   

If Al Gore had invented the internet in the early 70's I would be able to pull up the fisherie forum discussion on this from the archives of the Coho Wars.
 
Even the dead horse has been beaten, sold to the glue factory, and processed for school children to make macaroni covered pencil holders that were sprayed with lead based paint. 

Yes. It is that old.

chartist1

I know you tried to make an intelligent point, but without subtitles, this is unintelligible....Also, $4 billion a week?  I don't think so!

KJH807

since Rustheads are a $4billion a week industry in erie
woun't that suffice for commerce via the waterway
and make everything public?

 
You'd think the most intelligent member of the board(in his own mind) might appreciate a little sarcasm.

Honestly why do you even care?
 
There are plenty of public opportunities to have double digit days in any section of public water in Erie, you aren't missing much by fishing the sections that people have posted.  Just go above or below them.
 
 

Loomis

Honestly why do you even care?

There are plenty of public opportunities to have double digit days in any section of public water in Erie, you aren't missing much by fishing the sections that people have posted.  Just go above or below them.

 
But... But I PAID FOR THESE FEESH!!!!!!

The water rights give you the right to float on top of the water, but it does not extend to fishing.  So yes you can float through posted land on Elk, but no you can't fish the posted land while doing it.  This is stated on the PFBC's web site.

 
Can you provide a link to this section?  I've never seen this, and while I'm certainly not doubting you, I've alse read various pertinent sections of the PFBC site and have never encountered this tidbit.

It is in the link that Essox Hunter posted above.  Either the last or close to, question noted.
 
I was actually surprised that you could kayak private, non navigable waters.  I'm guessing if you knew your waters, and knew there was a section that was not posted, but surrounded by posted, you could access through on a kayak.  If you happened to keep any fish, you might have a hard time proving that you caught the fish on the public or non-posted private land.
 
I'd imagine that you could also get cited for trespassing, if the stream became impassible, and had to get out of the boat to pass the obstical.