PFBC please read:
verbatim
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RE: PFBC please read:
2012/03/26 09:37:46
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The Era Continues--40 Years Later By Mike Shingleton 2007 In 1966, trout fishing in West Virginia was changed forever by the elimination of opening day. Anglers no longer had to wait until the end of April to go trout fishing. Gone were the elbow to elbow fishing experiences and tangled lines, common with previous opening days. An angler could choose their own 'opening day' that suited him, based on weather, opportunity, or whim. Forty years later the majority of anglers still support and enjoy trout fishing year round. In 1966, approximately 395,000 pounds of 10-inch trout were stocked into numerous West Virginia waters. Today, an average of 750,000 pounds of 12-inch trout are stocked into nearly 200 streams and small impoundments. Forty years ago some anglers complained about truck followers catching all the trout from a water before they had an opportunity to fish on the weekend. In response to angler complaints, tagging studies were conducted in 1963, 1966 and 1974. These tagging studies were conducted to determine the percentage of trout caught the day a water was stocked and the percentage of trout remaining after certain time periods had elapsed. Those studies revealed that an average of 85 percent of the trout were still available two days after a stocking. An average of 66 percent of the trout remained for anglers one week after the stocking , and 50 percent where still present to be caught two weeks after a stocking. These studies were conducted at Spruce Knob Lake and the North Fork of the South Branch. Anglers still complain that truck followers catch the trout before they have an opportunity to fish. In response to this, and to verify and duplicate previous studies, the Division of Natural Resources is currently conducting a similar study. Tagged trout have again been stocked into Spruce Knob Lake and the North Fork of the South Branch. Tagged trout have also been stocked into Mountwood Lake in Wood County. Tagged trout will be stocked into additional selected waters in 2007. One aspect of trout fishing that was not used much 40 years ago, but is a direct beneficiary of year-round fishing, is the fingerling stocking program. Prior to the ending of opening day, hatcheries did not have the capacity to hold surplus fingerling trout. All available hatchery capacity was devoted to the rearing of stockable or catchable-sized trout. Today, over 300,000 surplus fingerlings, primarily brown trout, are annually reared and stocked into about 90 waters that will support trout year round. These stockings are carried out by WRS personnel, along with many volunteers from Trout Unlimited, Izaak Walton League and other organizations. These stockings have developed long-term fisheries that are used by many anglers who enjoy fishing for "wild trout." Year-round trout fishing, supported by hatchery produced trout and the fingerling trout stocking efforts, has also had an additional benefit. Although, many anglers still enjoy fishing for West Virginia’s only native trout -- the brookie -- fishing pressure on this resource has been offset by the Division’s various stocking programs. Was trout fishing made better 40 years ago with the abolition of opening day? Is trout fishing better now than it was 40 years ago? Can trout fishing get better in the next 40 years? The answer to all of these questions is YES! The challenge facing resource managers is how best to meet the desires and needs of all trout anglers for the future. The solution or answer to these changes could be new regulations such as delayed harvest, the addition of new catch-and-release areas, more areas dedicated to children, or new waters stocked in areas with no or few opportunities to fish for trout. The answers to some anglers would seem simple and easy – but they are not. There must be a balance of trout fishing opportunities that benefit all anglers without significantly impacting other anglers and, most importantly, without having a negative effect on the resource itself. Mike Shingleton is Assistant Chief of Coldwater Fisheries stationed in Elkins.
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beerman0303
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RE: PFBC please read:
2012/03/26 09:48:07
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I don't disagree that it would be better for avid fisherman and propbaly improve the quality of the fishing. I know based on my personal experience that people "go up camp" and plan weekends around "opening day." Of my friends who go on "opening day" I know they would never buy a license if it were not an "event." They would not get together and fish if the date wasn't decided for them by the state.
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verbatim
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RE: PFBC please read:
2012/03/26 10:31:38
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So they can't get together as a group and decide on a weekend to go on a fishing trip on their own? Sounds like some awfully sad people. I don't actually think that's true of course. People make fishing trips, hunting trips and camping trips all the time on the basis of their available free time, the weather, the place they're going, etc. And if people were only capable of fishing locally and/or on the opening day of a season, fishing guides and paylakes would be out of business. BTW, for all that's made of them, trout are far from being the most popular fish. They're surpassed by bass, panfish and even catfish in angler popularity.
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Porktown
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RE: PFBC please read:
2012/03/26 10:35:16
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ORIGINAL: beerman0303 I don't disagree that it would be better for avid fisherman and propbaly improve the quality of the fishing. I know based on my personal experience that people "go up camp" and plan weekends around "opening day." Of my friends who go on "opening day" I know they would never buy a license if it were not an "event." They would not get together and fish if the date wasn't decided for them by the state. This is very similar situation that I have. A group of friends, usually between 8-15 of us have been doing opening day weekend "Troutmas" for about 15 years. Although, it has seemed to shift a few weeks out in recent years, and doesn't look like it is happening this year. Of all 15, 3 of us would buy a trout stamp if it isn't for the trip. I personally could do without buying the "combo" stamp, but don't mind supporting the PFBC and gives me the option if I am in the area of a good trout stream or Erie. If our trip doesn't happen, I'm guessing 5 of us have a fishing license by the end of the year. No doubt in my mind, the PFBC would be in a financial disseray, if they did away with opening day. If WV had the 4th and 22nd largest metro areas, along with 3-4 that rival their largest, I'd say they are worth comparing... Way too much money to mess with the structure here. Although, with the issues they are having with the hatcheries aging, who knows what they'll do?
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verbatim
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RE: PFBC please read:
2012/03/26 11:11:02
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It just doesn't make sense. You can fish on April 14. Okay, I will buy a license. You can fish any day you want. No, I will not buy a license. You're dealing with the framework that exists now. Yes, people make opening day trips. Why? Because there is an opening day. There's simply no logic in saying that an extra 3.5 months of available fishing, and more available fish, would somehow lead to less anglers. The early opener in the south east has been in place for years and hasn't effected license sales. Neither has the addition of early trout waters, no closed season waters, etc. A lot of people take a trip or vacation on Memorial Day, because that's when the pools, amusement parks, etc., open full time. But people also take vacations at other times of the year, some earlier and some later. And if Memorial Day was suddenly abolished or moved, people would still take vacations.
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**commander**
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RE: PFBC please read:
2012/03/26 11:16:26
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what did the PFBC say when you proposed it to them and sent all your info about w va. fishing? just askin'
"I'm sick of all the fairytale stories of how this is destiny and how the saints have rebuilt new orleans.Sorry but you can write the script anyway you want but the actors(sean payton and crew)do not have the talent to step on the stage."---Logan Wade
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beerman0303
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RE: PFBC please read:
2012/03/26 11:44:24
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ORIGINAL: verbatim A lot of people take a trip or vacation on Memorial Day, because that's when the pools, amusement parks, etc., open full time. But people also take vacations at other times of the year, some earlier and some later. And if Memorial Day was suddenly abolished or moved, people would still take vacations. If you want to take it out of context, so can I. Major league baseball teams play 81 home games every year. Why is opening day always the most crowded? Because it's an "event," thats why.
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verbatim
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RE: PFBC please read:
2012/03/26 11:53:28
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1. That's not what "out of context" means. 2. You're talking about a spectator sport. I'm talking about activities that people actively participate in. 3. Again, "opening day" for baseball is an event because it exists and is promoted as such. If it didn't exist, if baseball was played year round, people who like baseball would still like baseball. 4. If you want to compare baseball as an activity it would make more sense. Do kids who play little league baseball only play the game during the season? Or do they play pick up games, play catch, do batting practice, etc., throughout the year according to free time and weather? 5. According to your logic, license sales should have decreased in West Virginia over the last 5 decades. Why have fishing license sales and days per angler increased in West Virginia since opening day was done away with?
post edited by verbatim - 2012/03/26 11:56:15
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verbatim
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RE: PFBC please read:
2012/03/26 11:55:58
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what did the PFBC say when you proposed it to them and sent all your info about w va. fishing? just askin' The PFBC does what it wants, according to its own interests and the interests of legislature (which itself is in the hands of big business). An individual appeal to them to change the rule would have zero effect and would likely not even be acknowledged. I'd hate to break it to you, but that's not the way change takes place.
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Porktown
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RE: PFBC please read:
2012/03/26 12:13:22
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ORIGINAL: verbatim There's simply no logic in saying that an extra 3.5 months of available fishing, and more available fish, would somehow lead to less anglers. Where are the more fish coming from? I can agree, the structure you mention would be better off for most of us anglers that would probably fish 24/7 if given the option. I'd probably trout fish more, if it were the case. That said, our demographic makes up a fraction of license sales. There is still the other group of anglers, that fishes every so often, that would still buy licenses, that the structure wouldn't change. The ones that it does change, is the real money makers for the PFBC. Without solid figures, who really knows what this is. From knowing my group, along with MANY other groups we run into that weekend, hearing the same, I'm pretty sure it is a larger fraction than us fishoholics. $40 for 1-2 days fishing, most of which are lucky to land a fish or two in that time, and have no clue how to clean and cook, so likely C&R. Not a bad investment, and honestly, I don't mind the circus (since I avoid the really crowded places) for what the PFBC provides in return from their funds. If they axed opening day of trout, I can't imagine them supporting 1/2 of the trout stockings they have now. Which in turn would affect me, by adding pressure to the warm water fisheries...
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beerman0303
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RE: PFBC please read:
2012/03/26 12:21:01
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Your assuming that most of the people buying licenses WANT to fish most of the year. They don't. They want to follow the stock truck, set up their lawn chairs and fish opening day. If they never stocked another fish ever, you and I would still fish. Thats not who they cater to. Why would they? We are buying a license/stamp anyway.
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beerman0303
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RE: PFBC please read:
2012/03/26 12:23:28
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ORIGINAL: verbatim 3. Again, "opening day" for baseball is an event because it exists and is promoted as such. If it didn't exist, if baseball was played year round, people who like baseball would still like baseball. You arguing MY point. Those once a year want to be part of an event. Thats why the powers that be market opening day of trout season as such. Fishing will always exist. It's "events" that draw the casual participants in.
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Porktown
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RE: PFBC please read:
2012/03/26 12:44:38
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ORIGINAL: beerman0303 We are buying a license/stamp anyway. Good point. And, we very likely "use" more of the allotted money than our licenses pay for. Whether we ever keep a fish or not. Road, dam, stream upkeep, aquatic management, other misc. "hidden" expenses besides stocking, although we still take advantage of that too. I don't care if someone is 100% C&R, exclusively using size 22 midges, and as careful handling a fish as can be, some are going to die, or weakened enough to be easier prey. I've always wondered, is it cheaper to just raise and dump trout into any water that would hold them, over managing a warm water fishery? Where they are keeping a balance of native species, introducing "control species" like hybrid stripers and tiger muskies, to knock down the invasive shad populations, ect. Managing the weed growth, adding structure, ect. Good response to the #3 too. I was thinking the same. Go on the PFBC site or handbook, it is an advertisement for opening day of trout... The PFBC romanticizes the species, and has many hooked that trout are something special.
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**commander**
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RE: PFBC please read:
2012/03/26 12:48:45
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oh, does it get changed from here? just askin' ORIGINAL: verbatim what did the PFBC say when you proposed it to them and sent all your info about w va. fishing? just askin' The PFBC does what it wants, according to its own interests and the interests of legislature (which itself is in the hands of big business). An individual appeal to them to change the rule would have zero effect and would likely not even be acknowledged. I'd hate to break it to you, but that's not the way change takes place.
"I'm sick of all the fairytale stories of how this is destiny and how the saints have rebuilt new orleans.Sorry but you can write the script anyway you want but the actors(sean payton and crew)do not have the talent to step on the stage."---Logan Wade
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spoonchucker
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RE: PFBC please read:
2012/03/26 12:50:40
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The point is, that it's not like there is NO place to fish during these 2-6 weeks. And some of Penna's "best waters", don't have a single trout in them Plus, most of the waters stocked for opening day, are not suitable for year round stocking.
post edited by spoonchucker - 2012/03/26 12:54:08
Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference. Step Up, or Step Aside The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody. GL
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verbatim
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RE: PFBC please read:
2012/03/26 13:11:57
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oh, does it get changed from here? just askin' No. It gets discussed here, as this is in fact a discussion board.
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verbatim
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RE: PFBC please read:
2012/03/26 13:16:49
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The point is, that it's not like there is NO place to fish during these 2-6 weeks. And some of Penna's "best waters", don't have a single trout in them No, that's actually not the point at all. The point is that open season would be vastly superior to the current set up. Plus, most of the waters stocked for opening day, are not suitable for year round stocking. Many of them are not suitable for trout at all, ever. Hasn't stopped them from stocking them before. It's certainly not the case that any streams are somehow less suitable for trout in January, February and March (when water is typically colder and higher than it is at any other point in the year) than they are April or May. Besides, open season doesn't mean you have to stock every stream and lake year round. In West Virginia, it's determined by the body of water. Some streams and lakes are stocked once a week, some once every two weeks, some once a month, some once every two months and some once a year. Open season would actually be better as it would allow each stream to be stocked according to its own characteristics. It would also spread out the stocking so that drivers wouldn't be forced to stock every water in the state in a period of a few weeks (which leads to overworked and tired drivers simply stopping and dumping the fish in the closest hole to the road in most cases).
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verbatim
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RE: PFBC please read:
2012/03/26 13:23:38
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Your assuming that most of the people buying licenses WANT to fish most of the year. They don't. They want to follow the stock truck, set up their lawn chairs and fish opening day. Nope. Never made that assumption. Year round fishing wouldn't prevent the casual angler from partaking once a year from his lawn chair. The ONLY difference would be that he could partake whenever he wanted, whenever he had free time and weather he wanted to go out in, instead of having to do so on a particular day predetermined in advance regardless of conditions. It would be better for the casual angler actually, since they wouldn't have to spend time studying up on seasons, approved waters, special regulations, etc. Simply grab a license, grab a pole, and go fishing. BTW, you can't follow a stock truck on opening day. Waters are stocked before the season begins. Some are stocked in season. You could follow those trucks, but it wouldn't be on opening day. You've contradicted your own argument. Are these imaginary people first day only guys or are they truck chasers? They can't be both. If they never stocked another fish ever, you and I would still fish. Thats not who they cater to. Why would they? We are buying a license/stamp anyway. But with open season they would stock more fish, more often and there would be more available days to fish. There's literally no downside to it. Even for businesses. More hotel/cabin rentals, more bait sales, etc., etc. The real question isn't why to abolish opening day. It's why to preserve it.
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verbatim
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RE: PFBC please read:
2012/03/26 13:25:55
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Where are the more fish coming from? Did you check out the articles I posted? It frees up more room in the hatcheries. "Prior to the ending of opening day, hatcheries did not have the capacity to hold surplus fingerling trout. All available hatchery capacity was devoted to the rearing of stockable or catchable-sized trout." It takes those fish a while to reach that size. Longer for browns and brooks than rainbows. If you're entire operation is aimed at creating 11 inch fish for April, that ties you up for the whole year. Spacing things out allows for all kinds of new opportunities.
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anatikus
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RE: PFBC please read:
2012/03/26 13:45:59
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just a thought......the places, times and even species of trout being stocked is no big secret... so why couldnt people that only go out for opening day plan their own opening day or vacation if fishing was permitted year round?
fish heads fish heads rolly polly fish heads
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verbatim
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RE: PFBC please read:
2012/03/26 14:19:14
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They sure could, and if the existing evidence is anything to go by, that's exactly what would happen.
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Porktown
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RE: PFBC please read:
2012/03/26 15:40:13
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ORIGINAL: verbatim Did you check out the articles I posted? It frees up more room in the hatcheries. If you free up room and raise more fish, is this going to be cheaper? Doubling the amount of fish in a hatchery, to the same size or larger, means more feed, more filtering, more engergy. It is ALL about what is more profitable for the PFBC (did you check out any of the responses from myself or other posters ?). You definitely have a great point of what is best for anglers, and applaud WRS for their efforts. I'd like to see the comparison of fish poundage the PFBC has compared to the WRS (all fish). I would imagine, the PFBC's overall operation is much larger than the WRS. Don't get me wrong, if it were a more profitable approach to eliminate opening day, and they still went about it, then I'd be disapointed in the PFBC. Since it is part of our government, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised though... edit - I guess I can't be surpised and not surprised... Disapointed, I guess would be the word.
post edited by Porktown - 2012/03/26 15:42:39
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SevenMileShowcase
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RE: PFBC please read:
2012/03/26 16:01:25
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I can think of 12 streams that I fish that holdover trout, 2 in southwest PA, 10 in North Central at least. Year round stocking takes place at streams that I fish in Butler counties, by clubs and those fish are able to holdover, some DALO's in fact alot get stocked in October.
East side love is living on the west end
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BenC
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RE: PFBC please read:
2012/03/26 16:24:52
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You can keep opening day; just leave the waterways, where there are many other target species besides trout, open year round. It's that simple (which is probably why they haven’t figured it out yet).
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**commander**
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RE: PFBC please read:
2012/03/26 17:40:40
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ORIGINAL: verbatim what did the PFBC say when you proposed it to them and sent all your info about w va. fishing? just askin' The PFBC does what it wants, according to its own interests and the interests of legislature (which itself is in the hands of big business). An individual appeal to them to change the rule would have zero effect and would likely not even be acknowledged. I'd hate to break it to you, but that's not the way change takes place. since you dont believe anybody as to why the PFBC does what they do concerning opening day, and since you obviously know how change takes place, and rather than whining about it, why not prove why your way is better and get it handled? just askin' btw, how is the way the PFBC handles opening day in "the hands of big business"?
post edited by **commander** - 2012/03/26 17:43:15
"I'm sick of all the fairytale stories of how this is destiny and how the saints have rebuilt new orleans.Sorry but you can write the script anyway you want but the actors(sean payton and crew)do not have the talent to step on the stage."---Logan Wade
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anatikus
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RE: PFBC please read:
2012/03/26 19:57:45
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how about this.....keep opening day, just change the lines in time from 8am to sunrise........?
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Cold
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RE: PFBC please read:
2012/03/29 14:46:22
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ORIGINAL: anatikus how about this.....keep opening day, just change the lines in time from 8am to sunrise........? Because most of the first day crowd is doing good to be able to read a watch, much less decide what time 'sunrise' actually occurs. That, and having a time like that only serves to further intensify the "event" aspect. Just my opinion, but given the choice of leaving things as-is, or converting to a year-round season, while it'd suit me to have a year round season, I know the PFBC's got bills to pay, and the big "first day" event goes a long way toward helping them pay those bills. While I wish the "lockdown" period was made C&R-only or just 4/1 till the opening day, I'll give up a few weeks and one crazy weekend, in exchange for the rest of my fishing year, in which the opening weekend warriors pay for much of the trout, parking, access, habitat improvement, management, and information that I use and benefit from year-round.
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anatikus
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RE: PFBC please read:
2012/03/29 15:46:48
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fish heads fish heads rolly polly fish heads
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verbatim
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RE: PFBC please read:
2012/03/30 11:08:17
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I guess the guys claiming the need for a "first day event" or whatever have never heard of steelhead or salmon fishing in the Great Lake. Lasts weeks and even months, in the bitter cold, no set opening day, draws people from around the country and the world. Still dealing with stocked fish. Not dealing with a set "opening day" but determined by the fish, the weather, etc.
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Porktown
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RE: PFBC please read:
2012/03/30 11:25:59
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Never heard of it. Not really sure if anyone is saying a "need" for it. Just saying that it brings in a lot of money for the PGBC, and imagine they have MANY studies supporting it in their budget office. I doubt they would be willing to share the info though. If they are doing, without money being the only driving factor (which you are suggesting), then I would be disappointed in them. I very highly doubt that you are going to convince many, that they aren't doing it for the money, which is 99% of the responses here. Most of us, wouldn't have any issue if it changed as you suggest, unless it wasn't able to be funded, and cut from other places.
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