Who is killing the bucks 
retired guy
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RE: Who is killing the bucks
2012/03/21 18:15:09
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Wayne- We had a political public hearing recently where I kinda sided with one of the groups on a strictly moral point. Both sides of the issue showed up and stated their case. There were several hundred folks there as it was HOT issue.
We even got a large hall for the hearing as we expected many to show up and to the credit of both sides they did so in force- meeting took several hours- GREAT this is America and thats what its all bout.
Unfortunately the side I kinda leaned towards was generally rude and nasty even catcalling and shouting while the opposition was trying to speak. Made many who could have gone either way on the issue with sound arguments lean the other way. Nobody likes rude and nasty-gets in the way of a good position.
Point bein that its always best for folks on either side on an issue to always put their best foot forward when speakin to those making the decisions. Specially when its kinda a close call in the first place.
Kudos to those of you PA guys who write letters and attend meetings and make your points known on a regular basis- I know it can get frustrating- Thats why I sought office in the first place. Try it----
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BenC
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RE: Who is killing the bucks
2012/03/22 14:48:38
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Two points:
1. Anyone is free to participate in any of the deer hunting seasons.
2. You pull the trigger not the PGC, if you're unhappy with the deer #'s, stop pulling the trigger.
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retired guy
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RE: Who is killing the bucks
2012/03/22 16:18:37
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Spot on Ben. Turkey numbers in my area of CT are not to my liking and I have NOT pulled the trigger in a year now-Spring or fall.. Even though goin out and Hunting a bit to see whats up I have chosen not to harvest breeders of a hopefully recovering local population.
There IS a means to an end result.
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S-10
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RE: Who is killing the bucks
2012/03/22 18:18:27
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No need for the game commission then, they were created in 1896 to prevent the over harvest of the states wildlife (primarily the deer)not to promote it.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Who is killing the bucks
2012/03/22 18:42:49
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they were created in 1896 to prevent the over harvest of the states wildlife (primarily the deer)not to promote it. Once again I will point out I can find that statement NO WHERE ...excpet when you post it somewhere .. so I think it is more of your opinion why they were formed .. not the true reason as stated below ==== IMHO == it was more about restoring wildlife to Pa then managing it?????
The Pennsylvania Game Commission is the state agency responsible for wildlife conservation and management in Pennsylvania in the United States. It was founded over 100 years ago and has more than 700 employees.
The mission of the Pennsylvania Game Commission is:
To manage and protect wildlife
To manage wildlife habitat
To inform and educate the public on wildlife and safe hunting practices
The duties of the Pennsylvania Game Commission include:
Set hunting and trapping seasons and bag limits
Issuing hunting and fur taking licenses
Conduct tests for wildlife disease
Pheasant release
Animal Reintroduction
When the Game Commission was founded in 1895, many hunters and trappers were concerned that species were being over hunted. In subsequent decades, many environmental problems created concern for dwindling numbers of birds and mammals in the state.
Some species, such as the passenger pigeon, were lost forever. Elk were now extinct, along with wolves, mountain lions, fishers, martens, beavers.
Many species were near extinction but were found scattered around the state.
Complicating the situation that affected wildlife were pollution from mining, waste from factories, and raw sewage that was untreated and dumped into rivers and streams. Large clear cutting timber operations stripped mountainsides of their vegetation creating erosion and created floods across the state.
In 1894, a year before the state legislature created the Pennsylvania Game Commission, no animals, with the exception of a few songbirds, received complete protection. Wildlife was sold in markets and served in restaurants. Deer were shot over salt blocks, and jack lighted, wild turkeys and grouse were shot at night while roosting. Waterfowl was harvested during spring breeding season. Bears were shot while hibernating, and many song birds were shot for spaghetti sauce.
On June 25, 1895, Governor Hastings signed a law creating the Pennsylvania Board of Game Commissioners. The Game Commission was created too late to help some species. But there was still hope for others, such as the bear, white-tailed deer, and wild turkeys, three of the state's most popular game species. Their numbers were at their lowest population levels ever, and would require protection if they were to survive. To restore wildlife, the Game Commission pressed for restrictive hunting laws, designed to safeguard what wildlife was left and provide it with a better opportunity to recover. The agency was learning what worked and what didn't in wildlife management.
It learned that releasing Mexican bobwhite quail, Midwestern cottontails, Hungarian partridges, and sharp tailed grouse were in vain.
Stocking pen raised turkeys, ducks, and quail did not work either.
Over its first century of operation, the Game Commission has successfully restored populations of white-tail deer, turkeys, black bears, bob cats, river otters, wood ducks, geese, and reintroduced beavers, fishers, and elk. Species threatened by extinction such as bald eagles, peregrine falcons and ospreys are doing quite well today.
Around 1900, the Game Commission estimated that only about 500 whitetail deer remained in the state. The commission began stocking deer in 1906 and continued through the 1920s.
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2012/03/22 19:08:14
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retired guy
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RE: Who is killing the bucks
2012/03/22 18:47:48
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Wether its written or not- In any State- 10 makes a good point.
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S-10
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RE: Who is killing the bucks
2012/03/22 19:55:40
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IMHO == it was more about restoring wildlife to Pa then managing it????? Just exactly how do you think they restored it without managing it. The reason for overharvest in the first place was because it wasn't being managed at all. No management or mismanagement leads to the same problem of overharvest. Added-- try reading some books on the history of the states wildlife and the formation and early years of the Game Commission rather than just copy and pasting everything they send you. You might just learn something. The libaray has lots of info.
post edited by S-10 - 2012/03/22 19:59:11
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S-10
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RE: Who is killing the bucks
2012/03/22 20:21:24
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Wether its written or not- In any State- 10 makes a good point. Actually, those words were written in an early research paper by "Winecoff." The PGC often references his work but I'll bet they aren't going to put that research paper out for the public. Doc passes on the NEW PGC info because that is what they give him. Reading the PRE 1990 info and research tells the "Other Side".
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Who is killing the bucks
2012/03/22 20:58:36
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The reason for overharvest in the first place was because it wasn't being managed at all. No management or mismanagement leads to the same problem of overharvest.
this is stuff I have found on the internet over the years about the history... "The folowing facts show there were attempts at managing wildlife long before the PGC was established.. there were even "seasons" established ...they just either did not work or were ignored...
PENNSYLVANIA'S WILDLIFE CONSERVATION HISTORY
1681 - March 4 -- Charter granted by King Charles II of England to William Penn to found a colony in new world, which later became known as Penn's Woods or Pennsylvania.
1681 - William Penn in his Charter of Rights required settlers to leave one acre of trees for every five acres cleared.
1683 - Hunting permitted on all lands under William Penn's Charter.
1683 - First bounty offered on wolves -- 10 and 15 shillings.
1721 - August 26 - Pennsylvania's first Game Law enacted by Sir William Keith (provincial governor). Deer may be hunted from July 1 to January 1. Fine for shooting out of season -- 20 shillings. Indians are exempt.
1721 - Illegal to hunt on "improved lands" without owner's permission.
1749 - Squirrels (red and gray) were classed as predators; a three-pence-a-head bounty was placed on them.
1749 - Deer may be hunted from August 1 to December 1. Out of season fine - 40 shillings.
1749 - January 27 - Illegal to hunt deer on Sundays, except in "cases of necessity."
1760 - Unlawful to hunt or trap on Indian lands.
1760 - Deer may be hunted from August 1 to January 1.
1839 - Adams and Dauphin counties establish first game bird seasons: woodcock, June 20 to January 31; wild turkey, pheasant (ruffed grouse) and partridge (bobwhite quail), September 1 to January 15.
1840 - Only Pennsylvania citizens may kill deer in Monroe, Pike and Wayne counties.
1841 - Unlawful to kill "small insectivorous birds" from April 1 to August 10 in Chester County, York County's Hellam Township, Lehigh County's Northampton and Hanover townships, Delaware County's Aston, Concord, Middletown and Thornbury townships, Northampton County's Lower Saucon and Bethlehem townships, and Montgomery County's Upper and Lower Merion townships.
1843 - Unlawful to kill "robins, flickers, bluebirds, woodpeckers, thrush and other insectivorous birds" in Allegheny and Franklin counties. Fine - $2.
1844 - Unlawful to kill insectivorous birds in Bucks, Dauphin, Lancaster, Luzerne, Northampton and Philadelphia counties from March 1 to August 31.
1845 - Illegal to chase or hunt "unwounded deer" with dogs at any time in Warren County. Fine - $25.
1848 - March 24 - Unlawful to hunt or pursue "any deer" with dogs in Butler, Carbon, Dauphin, Elk, Huntingdon, Luzerne, Mifflin, Monroe and Pike counties. Fine - $20.
1850-1885 - Venison and other game was placed on free lunch counter of better saloons in Pittsburgh and Philadelphia.
851 - August 1 - Deer hunting banned for five years in Cumberland and Franklin counties.
1856 - April 10 - Deer hunting banned for five years in Adams County.
1858 - April 21 - Unlawful to kill any "bluebird, swallow, martin or other insectivorous bird," or to take eggs or destroy nests statewide. Several acts followed this over the next 40 years strengthening the law.
1858 - First statewide small game seasons set (counties could circumvent these seasons by setting their own): pheasants, September 1 to January 1; woodcock, July 4 to January 1; and partridge and rabbits, October 1 to January 1.
1864 - Unlawful to shoot ducks in any counties bordering Susquehanna River or its tributaries on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Fridays and anytime between April 1 and September 1.
1866 - Pennsylvania Fish Commission established.
1867 - Last native elk killed in Pennsylvania about this time.
1869 - New deer season set: September 1 to December 31.
1869 - Blinds first prohibited for taking upland game, and baiting, trapping or snaring of game birds was forbidden.
1873 - Illegal to take wild ducks or geese with swivel or punt gun.
1873 - Illegal to discharge a firearm within a quarter mile of a passenger pigeon nesting area, and to shoot at roosting pigeons. Fine $25.
1873 - All Sunday game hunting banned.
1873 - First statewide bag limit for wild turkeys set: two per day.
1873 - Illegal to kill fawns "when in its spotted coat."
1873 - Pennsylvania's first comprehensive Wildlife Act (forerunner of the Game Code) passed.
1873 - Dogs first barred from running deer and elk.
1875 - Act passed prohibiting killing or disturbing passenger pigeons on roosts or nesting grounds -- nonresident required to pay $50 for license to trap or net these birds.
1878 - June 3 - First statewide waterfowl season: September 1 to May 15.
1878 - October 1 - Pike County banned deer hunting for three years.
1883 - May 17 - Waterfowl season changed: September 1 to January 1; may hunt on only Mondays, Tuesdays and Fridays.
1883 - May 17 - Unlawful to chase or hunt waterfowl in any "craft or boat propelled by steam or sails."
1890 - Pennsylvania State Sportsmen's Association formed at Corry.
1892 - Pheasants successfully established for first time in Pennsylvania when several hundred were released in Lehigh and Northampton counties.
1894 - "Bird Day" first observed in public schools at Oil City.
1895 - June 25 - Act creating the Board of Game Commissioners.
Sure looks like alot of trying to manage wildlife... LONG before the PGC was established so I still do not believe it (the PGC) was created to simply manage wildlife by preventing over harvesting... but everyone is free to think what they want.... 
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2012/03/22 21:02:34
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S-10
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RE: Who is killing the bucks
2012/03/22 21:22:23
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Why don't you look up the DATE of their current MISSION STATEMENT The reasons the attempts failed in the early years was because there was NO ONE to enforce them. The PGC was/is primarily a law enforcement organization. It is evolving into more of a enviromential organization IMO How could one of their original duties be PHEASANT RELEASE when they didn't start releasing them for ANOTHER TWO DECADES.
post edited by S-10 - 2012/03/22 21:43:33
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Who is killing the bucks
2012/03/22 22:12:46
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they were created in 1896 to prevent the over harvest of the states wildlife The PGC was/is primarily a law enforcement organization. Say or think what you may.. I still say = the #1 reason for the game commission is conservation and then the managing and control of wildlife and part of all that is that law enforcemnt is needed also..
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retired guy
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RE: Who is killing the bucks
2012/03/22 22:19:44
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Similar stuff no matter where ya go- Here it used to be the Ct Fish and Game Dept then it became the Dept of Environmental Protection. Back in 1932 it became a front page thing when somebody actually killed a deer during an open season - One guy - one Deer. Our Turkeys were completly decimated. Most all for commercial gain. Our New Haven swamplands where the Quinnipiac Rived enters the LI Sound were among the countrys highest producing Waterfowl kill areas for commercial hunting- Ya remember Punt guns for shooting large numbers on the water? Probably the most important thing that the States did more or less around the same times was STOP the commercialization of taking game and making it into a SPORT.
post edited by retired guy - 2012/03/22 22:21:24
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S-10
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RE: Who is killing the bucks
2012/03/23 06:11:38
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Similar stuff no matter where ya go- Here it used to be the Ct Fish and Game Dept then it became the Dept of Environmental Protection Yep--that seems to be the pattern. The PGC started as a wildlife protection agency and has slowley evolved into what it is today as the politics have changed. The title change is probably the next thing for us once they get the license increase to fund their other priorties..
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DarDys
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RE: Who is killing the bucks
2012/03/23 07:32:09
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ORIGINAL: retired guy
Similar stuff no matter where ya go- Here it used to be the Ct Fish and Game Dept then it became the Dept of Environmental Protection.
Back in 1932 it became a front page thing when somebody actually killed a deer during an open season - One guy - one Deer. Our Turkeys were completly decimated. Most all for commercial gain.
Our New Haven swamplands where the Quinnipiac Rived enters the LI Sound were among the countrys highest producing Waterfowl kill areas for commercial hunting- Ya remember Punt guns for shooting large numbers on the water?
Probably the most important thing that the States did more or less around the same times was STOP the commercialization of taking game and making it into a SPORT.
That was the plan in PA too a few years back -- merge the PGC with DCNR. The state's hunters didn't like the idea. They were afraid that the enviro portion of DCNR would have too much influence. Including DCNR would bring in public, non-hunter money that would, due ot the size of their budget, give them the mahority stake in the new organization. Enter a charismatic character from the PGC, someone that wore the uniform, spoke the hunters' language, but also had a PhD in forestry. If he could be installed as the head of the new agency, hunters might accept it because the leader was from the PGC and not DCNR. Surely he would look out for hunters' interests. The problem was that this PGC employee only headed up a small PGC program with very few staff, had limited administrative and executive experience, and his program was only responsible for the harvest of a few thousand animals. In reality, while his program did get some of the spotlight, more or less due to his charisma, it was fairly unimportant in the larger scheme of the PGC. In order to boost the required resume line item to make the PGC person meet the minimum requirements for the position as well as to put a public face on an obscure biologist, the PGC handed hiim the biggest employment prize in the agency -- the deer program. He knew very little about deer, even that his previously managed species ate them, but that was ideal. What he didn't know wasn't important, what was important that they could tell him what he needed to know to fit the plan. If the merger worked out, they had "thier" man, whom they could control, at the helm and coming from the PGC, hunters would be placated for awhile. He was making campaign (although there wasn't an election) promises of bigger bucks after a short period of suffering when numbers would return to normal. And the hunters bought it. Whether the PGC person did or not is unknown and probably inconsequential. In exchange for taking on the role, the PGC person, who was very close to the maximum number of service years for retirement, would, when they took over the Executive Director's role of the new agency, almost double their biologist salary and since their pension was based on the average of their highest three years of service, almost double their retirement. It would be a short stint that would payoff for the next 25-30 years. It was a win-win. Upon retirement, he would be replaced by whomever they wanted since the PGC portion of the merger would now be insignificant because public money, not just hunters' money, was involved. If the merger failed, which it did, those behind the merger would need to try a different route, but since the wheels of AR/HR were already in motion, they had the momentum to keep going. Hunters' voices would be less because due to AR/HR, there would be fewer of them. Changes could be made more easily because there would be less resistance. Perhaps, in the future, even another run at a merger would be made. As for the PGC employee, if the merger didn't happen, he simply retired, no harm no foul, and relocated away from the area and into a "retirement" job with one of the driving forces behind the merger idea. The retirement job would somewhat make up for , when added to his existing PGC pension, not getting the bigger merger induced pension. Again, a win-win. Unless you are a PA deer hunter.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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retired guy
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RE: Who is killing the bucks
2012/03/23 10:01:36
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The change over from commercialization to Sport hunting is still the most important step ever taken in our interest as Sportsmen IMHO- Beyond that it would seem that different States have takes different but similar steps in recent years whereby they are all moving to the Enviro mandate rather than being there for just we hunters and fishermen. This has clearly occured as the country has moved from a rural to an urban atmosphere. Rural states seem to have lagged behind in this changeover and the more Urban were the front runners- for the most part. This has- and will continue- to put we sportsmen and women a notch or two behind the position we previously enjoyed. Not necessarily a bad thing if done in moderation- but ya gotta keep an eye out, as you folks in PA are finding.
post edited by retired guy - 2012/03/23 10:02:57
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Who is killing the bucks
2012/03/23 10:49:32
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Once upon a time a young lad was living with his widowed mother. Their only means of income is a cow. When this cow stops giving milk one morning, the young man is sent to the market to sell it. On the way to the market he meets an old man who offers to give him "magic" beans in exchange for the cow. The young man takes the beans but when he arrives home without money, his mother becomes furious and throws the beans out the window and sends him to bed without supper. As he sleeps and dreams of bears and deer, the beans grow into a gigantic beanstalk. The next morning he climbs the bean stalk and arrives in a land high up in the sky where he follows a road to a house, which is the home of a goon. He enters the house and asks the goon's wife for food. She gives him food, but the goon returns and senses that a human is nearby: Fee-fi-fo-fum! I smell the blood of a Conservationist. Be he live, or be he dead, I'll grind his bones to make my bread. However, the young man is hidden by the goon's wife and overhears the goon counting his tree money and plans for the certification of all the goon's forests.. He steals a bag of gold coins as he makes his escape down the beanstalk. He repeats his journey up the beanstalk two more times, each time he is helped by the increasingly suspicious wife of the goon and narrowly escapes. The third time he steals a ring-neck pheasant which laid golden eggs This time he is almost caught by the goon who follows him down the beanstalk. The young man calls his mother for an axe and chops the beanstalk down, killing the goon. He later moved to Pennsylvania and became the lead person in the PGC deer conspiracy theories... 
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2012/03/23 11:03:48
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DarDys
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RE: Who is killing the bucks
2012/03/23 11:04:06
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Amusing story. Thanks for the laugh.
The difference here, Doc is that you made up your story and mine came right from those, and there was more than one telling the same tale, on the Governor's Council that was selcting the BOC member that provided the AR/HR swing vote.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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S-10
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RE: Who is killing the bucks
2012/03/23 11:12:40
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Not conspiracy theories Doc, just all well documented facts available for anyone willing to get their head out of the sand and read them. The fact that some are unwilling or unable to admit what the facts are doesn't change them. BTW-----The date the PGC created their MISSION STATEMENT and DUTIES that you posted and seem to believe started when the organization began----- "2003"---- Imagine that
post edited by S-10 - 2012/03/23 11:13:39
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Who is killing the bucks
2012/03/23 11:14:16
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During that merger period I was in Harrisburg and/or on several trips with the PGC and they included members of the game and fisheries committee... NONE of those senators or representatives and I repeat NONE of them wanted anything to do with the merger.... Here is a list of who's who from the 2 day event in Lewistown for tagging a bear and her cubs in 2004 that I was invitied to attend... from my webpage about the event =
People in attendance--
I would like to apologize to anyone I forgot and to those I did not remember a last name .
Pa state Representatives
the honoable :
Bruce Smith,(R), Chairman -
Teresa Forcier - Vice Chairman -
Gordon Denlinger - Lancaster
Keith Gillespie - York
Sam Rohrer - Berks
Jim Lynch - McKean/Warren
Micahel Hanna(D) - Center/Clinton
Tim Solobay - Washington
Pa. Game Commission
Joe Neville
Carl Roe
Mark Ternent - Bear Biologist
Don Parr - S. Central regional Director
Jeff Mock - Mifflin County WCO
Tim Marks -S.Central Law Enforcement Supervisor
At the site of the bear's den there were many other PGC officers & DCNR personel that I did not meet and some I do not remember their names and again I apoloigize for that...
Lisa and her husband from the Attorney General's office..thank you.. enjoyed our conversations..
Jennifer Sager.. United Bowhunters of Pa
Melody Zullinger.. executive director of the Pa. Federation of Sportsmen's Club, Inc
and besides the PGC Board of Commissioners could not even start to think about bringing about any merger .. they did not have that power... that would have had to be done by the legislature.. so I Have no idea how you think a member of the BOC made any dramatic decision to stop the merger.. it was going NO WHERE and everyone involved back then knew it.... so maybe you can believe your tale is true but what I see is once again you are believing those that you choose to believe and that share the same agenda/opinions about a conspiracy
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2012/03/23 11:25:36
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fishin coyote
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RE: Who is killing the bucks
2012/03/23 12:59:15
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ORIGINAL: S-10
Similar stuff no matter where ya go- Here it used to be the Ct Fish and Game Dept then it became the Dept of Environmental Protection
Yep--that seems to be the pattern. The PGC started as a wildlife protection agency and has slowley evolved into what it is today as the politics have changed. The title change is probably the next thing for us once they get the license increase to fund their other priorties..
Spot on S-10. Remember when the WCO's used to be called "Game Protectors" and they changed that to WCO but why didn't they change the agency name to the Pa Wildlife Commission?? Mike
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DarDys
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RE: Who is killing the bucks
2012/03/23 13:27:29
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ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
During that merger period I was in Harrisburg and/or on several trips with the PGC and they included members of the game and fisheries committee... NONE of those senators or representatives and I repeat NONE of them wanted anything to do with the merger....
Here is a list of who's who from the 2 day event in Lewistown for tagging a bear and her cubs in 2004 that I was invitied to attend...
from my webpage about the event =
People in attendance--
I would like to apologize to anyone I forgot and to those I did not remember a last name .
Pa state Representatives
the honoable :
Bruce Smith,(R), Chairman -
Teresa Forcier - Vice Chairman -
Gordon Denlinger - Lancaster
Keith Gillespie - York
Sam Rohrer - Berks
Jim Lynch - McKean/Warren
Micahel Hanna(D) - Center/Clinton
Tim Solobay - Washington
Pa. Game Commission
Joe Neville
Carl Roe
Mark Ternent - Bear Biologist
Don Parr - S. Central regional Director
Jeff Mock - Mifflin County WCO
Tim Marks -S.Central Law Enforcement Supervisor
At the site of the bear's den there were many other PGC officers & DCNR personel that I did not meet and some I do not remember their names and again I apoloigize for that...
Lisa and her husband from the Attorney General's office..thank you.. enjoyed our conversations..
Jennifer Sager.. United Bowhunters of Pa
Melody Zullinger.. executive director of the Pa. Federation of Sportsmen's Club, Inc
and besides the PGC Board of Commissioners could not even start to think about bringing about any merger .. they did not have that power... that would have had to be done by the legislature..
so I Have no idea how you think a member of the BOC made any dramatic decision to stop the merger.. it was going NO WHERE and everyone involved back then knew it....
so maybe you can believe your tale is true but what I see is once again you are believing those that you choose to believe and that share the same agenda/opinions about a conspiracy
I know your math skills suck, so must your reading skills. Nowhere did I say that a BOC member had anything to do with the merger. What I wrote was that my information came from the Governor's Council that made the choices of who was nominated to the governor for inclusion on the BOC. Those are politically connected folks that serve or are fired at the pleasure of the Governor. And if you can't do math and can't read, I don't suppose that political science is a strong area either. The whole merger idea was purely political. And if you don't think politics plays any part, maybe the most important part in all of this, you are quite in the dark. As an example, my District was looking for a PFBC commissioner at about the same time. One of the candidates had political ties to conservation organizations that supported the Governor. Not surprisingly, maybe to you, that was the favored choice of the Governor's Council, since they serve at his will, and they forwarded him as their recommendation to the Governor and he nominated him. He then needed to be confirmed by the State Senate committee that covers fish and game (sorry, I don't recall the exact name of it after all this time). The chairman of the committee was furiously opposed to the Governor, so he killed the nomination in committee out of political spite. The whole process started over and the same guy went through the same steps, only to be quashed in committee again. This went on for three years until the chairman of the committee was defeated in an election and without him to block the confirmation, the guy was named to the PFBC BOC. In other words, a political whizzing contest cost my district representation for three years. And you don't think that something like that happened with something far more important -- the deer program? I hope you own one of the headlamps because if you don't, it must get lonely in the dark.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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S-10
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RE: Who is killing the bucks
2012/03/23 13:33:45
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Doc- not to butt in on Dardys and your debate but the idea for the merger started in 1998-99. It's Well documented.--- Alt was hired in 1999. It's Well documented.---- The politics of the merger changed in 2004 about the time the feasibility study was completed and presented to the Leglislature. It's Well documented.--- When was it Alt got pizzed and took his rubber ducky out to live with the California radical enviromentalists and started giving bird watching tours? It's Also well documented.
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DarDys
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RE: Who is killing the bucks
2012/03/23 14:01:40
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The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Who is killing the bucks
2012/03/23 14:18:49
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You're missing the point... The PGC BOC nor even the PFBC BOC could do ANYTHING about the merger.... it was up to the legislature.. and just like Sunday hunting they (politicians) knew if then even thought about passing a merger they would lose their jobs next election... During those "merger years" I did not hear one single elected official talk about deer as far as any merger... it was the whole idea of DCNR being able to control hunting and wildlife conservation and their "trees come first" (certification) mentality as a whole and the elected officials were listening to their voters and they said no way on a merger.. had little to do with deer from anyone I heard from .. and believe me .. it was not all about hunters either .. anglers were all up in arms too.... hikers, bikers, bird watcher.. I am not veen sure if anyone was in favor of the stupid idea... I never said politics was not and is not involved in game management, the game and fisheries committee has alot more power than either BOC...The PGC/PFBC can not just do anything they want.. there are limits.. and I will be the last person on earth to say the BOCs are not loaded by political pressure and a relationship with the current governor at any given time... ever notice how many are lawyers... not too many average joes... farmers... small business owners, etc.... hell most are not even what I would call a true hunter anymore ..and it has gotten worse since 2004... 
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2012/03/23 14:29:30
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DarDys
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RE: Who is killing the bucks
2012/03/23 14:52:23
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ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
You're missing the point...
The PGC BOC nor even the PFBC BOC could do ANYTHING about the merger....
it was up to the legislature.. and just like Sunday hunting they (politicians) knew if then even thought about passing a merger they would lose their jobs next election...
During those "merger years" I did not hear one single elected official talk about deer as far as any merger... it was the whole idea of DCNR being able to control hunting and wildlife conservation and their "trees come first" (certification) mentality as a whole and the elected officials were listening to their voters and they said no way on a merger..
had little to do with deer from anyone I heard from .. and believe me .. it was not all about hunters either .. anglers were all up in arms too.... hikers, bikers, bird watcher.. I am not veen sure if anyone was in favor of the stupid idea...
I never said politics was not and is not involved in game management, the game and fisheries committee has alot more power than either BOC...The PGC/PFBC can not just do anything they want.. there are limits.. and I will be the last person on earth to say the BOCs are not loaded by political pressure and a relationship with the current governor at any given time... ever notice how many are lawyers... not too many average joes... farmers... small business owners, etc....
hell most are not even what I would call a true hunter anymore ..and it has gotten worse since 2004...
No, I'm not missing the point. But I may not be explaining myself clear enough for you. I'll try again. The Governor's Council is made up of political insiders. They were privy to what plans were being out forth with regard to the possible merger. Some of them spoke openly about it to me since we had a relationship. Some were not happy about it, but would not go against the person to whom they served. Before any merger could take place, however, they needed to get the person that those behind the scenes wanted as head of the new organization the right credentials for the job. So Alt was put in charge of the deer program to do just that. The only hurdle remaining was to get the AR/HR program passed and to do that they needed a majority vote of the BOC. They had more than a few candidates for the then open position, but the Governor's Council made sure, and more than one of them told me this, that the person that they put forth to the Governor for nomination would assuredly vote for AR/HR so that it would pass. The BOC had nothing to do with a possible merger, other than the same folks that made sure they had the majority voting block on the BOC also knew what the plan was from the beginning. And yes, it would have had to come from the legislature. The same legislature that had the same political connections as the Governor's Council. If you still don't understand how it went down, rest assurted that what I am telling you is how it happened. Know why? Because I was there.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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S-10
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RE: Who is killing the bucks
2012/03/23 16:20:50
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Spot on S-10. Remember when the WCO's used to be called "Game Protectors" and they changed that to WCO but why didn't they change the agency name to the Pa Wildlife Commission??
Mike Sure do, that's when they worked more for the hunters and less for the enviromentalists or Audubon. Atually, some of those old (Game Protector)shoulder patches they wore are on sale on Ebay right now. $10 for the patch or 17 if you want it framed. The timing wasn't right for renaming the commission but I'am sure even I will live to see that happen.
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