Most people do not even see the collar or ear tags until they walk up to the dead deer.

ORIGINAL: wayne c

Most people do not even see the collar or ear tags until they walk up to the dead deer.

Only those half blind due to cataracts. Even then if they can look through a pair of binos or a scope and count points, they can easily see this equipment. Many of us could easily see it in most cases even without. As said previously, it was also stated by pgc as being a variable that could effect the results. Apparently they were considering hunters that could actually see....N'at.

Really! Keep in mind that the objective in unit 2A has been to reduce the over winter deer population.

Combine that with the fact that the unit experienced a fairly significant natural mortality (including a lot of both juvenile and adult bucks) from the EHD breakout a few years ago

and I would have to say that unit 2A obvious still has not experienced much of a deer population decline from hunter harvests, based on the buck harvest history for the counties that make up unit 2A.

Below are the buck harvest history facts, in harvest per square mile, for the counties that make up the unit. Remembering that antler restrictions have protected a fair number of bucks since 2002

ORIGINAL: wayne c
 We were killing in ONE COUNTY more buck than we are killing in the area making up the size of 3 or 4 now!! lol. How many times must we have this discussion and have me point this out only to have to do so again in another 6 months in the exact same fashion? lol.

I would bet you have never seen one with a collar or tags and therefore truly have no idea if you could see them or not.

I know guys, good hunters with many dead deer under their belts, that have shot them and had no idea they were shooting a marked deer until they walked up to it.

ORIGINAL: RSB

ORIGINAL: Cold

All this tells me is that the PGC has no idea what its trying to accomplish with all these changes they're making.

Deer are overpopulated, so we're going to increase doe tags. But there's too many bucks being shot so we're going to make up some random numbers for AR. If we do this, it will help increase the deer herd...but the deer are overpopulated, so we really want to sell more tags and get people out there hunting...

So is the goal more deer or less deer? Either way, one part of the regs or the other doesn't make a bit of sense.

I guess you are confused.
 
In many areas of the state the deer populations were too high to be sustained on the limited OVER WINTER food supplies.
 
Therefore, you have two options. You can either allow hunters to harvest enough deer to be sustainable through the winter or you can pray they have an extremely mild and open winter so the population does not collapse. But, even with no winter the population will eventually crash if you do not harvest some of them out of that herd. Plus, if the population is not reduced the excess deer are going to cause damage to the habitat (read that as food supply) so that the habitat will support even fewer deer in the future. When you do that it is only a matter of time until that deer population crashes and stays lower than it would have been if you had been harvesting enough deer each and every year to keep your habitat healthy and in good supply.
 
By keeping the OVER WINTER deer herd reduced to the correct over winter population you also have higher fawn recruitment which means the next fall hunters have to remove the same or perhaps even more deer just to get the OVER WINTER population back to what it has been the year before.
 
The reason for keeping more bucks is so there are enough bucks to get the MAXIMUM number of the does you already carried through the previous winter plus any breeding mature juvenile does bred in the fall. Thus, having the highest possible fawn recruitment the next spring and summer. That is important because the higher the fawn recruitment is the more deer hunters can harvest the next fall without actually reducing the next year’s deer population.
 
Both future deer populations and future deer harvests are all dependant on basically just two things. The first of those two things is how many deer you can sustain through the winter, without the deer population actively reducing its own numbers by either winter mortality of existing deer or does that are stressed from not enough food thus losing weight and not sending enough nutrition to the unborn fawns so that they die shortly after being born. The other factor is having as many of those existing does bred so they can produce fawns the next spring.
 
That is why carrying the correct number of deer is important and also why having as many does bred as possible. Having the correct buck/doe ratio is important toward reaching both of those objectives.  
 
I know there are a lot of people that simply don’t understand those deer management principles so they cannot understand the objectives either. But, what I just posted is about as simple as I can make the explanation and still keep it reasonably understandable.
 
R.S. Bodenhorn

ORIGINAL: Ironhed

ORIGINAL: wayne c

I would bet you have never seen one with a collar or tags and therefore truly have no idea if you could see them or not.

I know guys, good hunters with many dead deer under their belts, that have shot them and had no idea they were shooting a marked deer until they walked up to it.

Ok, so found pics of two different types, and neither are "invisible" by any stretch of the imagination. Perhaps its long overdue that those gentlemen have their prescription lenses re-checked.



And in the position that deer is in, that about as "unseen" as you could expect the equipment to ever be. lol. Unless you think that stark black band around the neck wouldnt be visible when broadside, or without half of it being under the deer laying against the cement? lol.

I realize you mostly archery hunt but the typical PA hunter is NOT gonna see that collar in the heat of the moment, let alone ear tags, especially the newer ones.  I got pretty good eyes and I never saw it... 
Sure they stick out like a sore thumb in a pic but not so much when it comes down to crunchtime.

Bings, RG, why wouldn't you shoot a collared deer?

Ironhed

quote:

ORIGINAL: S-10

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: S-10

quote:

The detractors of the deer program try to paint antler restrictions as simply a ploy to get hunters to kill more does but that is not true and really is just a red herring argument used by those that either refuse to understand the truth or in some cases are purposely trying to undermine the program for selfish and personal reasons.

R.S. Bodenhorn

It must be the detractors you are refering to are your own fellow PGC employees because they are the ones using the Red Herring argument you are refering to.

The following is taken from page 51 and 52 of the PGC's "Draft Whitetail Management Plan 2009-2018" right after they explain that hunters are starting to resist killing more does than they have been.----------QUOTE: To meet management objectives, the game commission employed a new strategy by providing new opportunities for hunters to harvest older antlered males while seeing fewer deer. It was hoped this new approach would improve hunter tolerance for reduced deer populations and permit the game commission to meet it's deer management objectives.

I don't know how much clearer you need to make it that AR was simply a ploy to sell HR. And RSB wonders why he doesn't have any credibility.


That was a good job of cherry picking just a small part of the REAL story. Picking a line or two that support your opinion, from a larger report that does not support your opinion, is a very typical flim-flam tactic used by those that want people to promote a mis-guided opinion or agenda.

Thank you for complementing me on proving what a BSer you were in incorectly stating the real reason for antler restriction. What I don't understand is why you posted all the non revelant additional info since I gave the page number where it could be found for anyone who was interested.

The only thing being discussed was whether or not you were honest in telling us the real reason for AR, which, as you just showed, you were not. The rest is a history of deer mgt as told by the PGC and many of us lived through. No cherry picking on my part, just posting the information revelent to the topic.


I guess you do have a comprehension problem unless you are just deceitful and intentionally mis-represent the facts to suit your agenda.

The only agenda I have is to help people have a better understanding of the reality the deer themselves provide.

R.S. Bodenhorn

ORIGINAL: Ironhed

Really?

We need to be observant enough to see a one inch brow tine in order to make sure a deer is legal, but we aren't going to see a collar?

And how did that work out for ya?  Not so well hence the change in regulations. lol

Step away from the archery high horse, you'll get some of what RSB's is trying to spread on your boots.

I'll fling lead with the best of them.

I'm just PO'd deer season is over...

Ironhed

The regs didn't change on my half of the state. We still gotta see them.

The regs didn't change on my half of the state. We still gotta see them.

ORIGINAL: S-10

The regs didn't change on my half of the state. We still gotta see them.

Up here we hunt them in the woods and brush and have to sort through the branches and twigs. We don't have those 400 yard bean field rifles like you.