newbie question
echuck66
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newbie question
Hi folks, I've been fishing with spinning and casting rods for many years and am wanting to learn to fly fish. I'm primarily interested in fly fishing the Erie tribs for steelhead, but will also likely use it to fish for bass and trout around SW PA. I'm able to get good equipment at nice prices, and I would prefer to get something nice that will last from the start, but am really unsure of what size rod to get. I'm thinking of getting a St. Croix 9' 5wt model, along with a decent reel to accompany it, but would like to know if this size rod is appropriate for steelhead fishing in and around Erie. What do most of the fly fishermen use on such small streams and such large fish? Is a 5wt overkill? Is a 9' rod too long? I just ordered a couple of the Orvis fly fishing guides: 1. 'The Orvis Guide to Beginning Fly Fishing: 101 Tips for the Absolute Beginner (Orvis Guides)' 2. 'The Orvis Fly-Fishing Guide' and the LL Bean guide: 'The L.L. Bean Ultimate Book of Fly Fishing'. I also plan to get a half-day of instruction from the folks at Neshannock Creek Fly Shop this spring. I'm really looking forward to learning to fly fish and, when the time comes, getting my son or daughter interested too. Any advice for a newbie is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Charlie
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kill3ducks1deer
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RE: newbie question
2012/01/03 18:54:55
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From what I have read on here, most guys recommend 6 to 8 weights for Erie in 9 to 10ft. You probably would be fine using a 6 weight for trout, my friend does and he hasn't complained, although we are new so you might want some others advice also.
"Fishermen are born honest, but they get over it." Ed Zern
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doubletaper
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RE: newbie question
2012/01/03 22:30:33
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if you're starting out this is what I suggest. 7wt for the steelhead tribs and largemouth bass. 9 to 9 1/2' fine. mid to large arbor reel. (i float tube for largemouth so the 9 1/2 foot rod is better suited than the 9 foot) an 8 weight i found got heavy to carry around by the end of the day. 6wt smallies and big river trout like the Kinzue area if you'll be casting heavy streamers. mid arbor will do fine. 9' fast action works great in open windy rivers and creeks. also can toss heavy streamers and light poppers for smallies well. most trout waters 5wt or 4wt. 8 1/2 to 9' rod most larger streams and open creeks. (nymph'rs will tell you 9 or longer is better) small creeks or more confined streams i like a 7 1/2' or 8 foot rod. easier to get through the brush along the grown up trails. standard size reel is fine. wild brookie streams a 3wt or less will do. i'll stick to a 7' to 8'. only because i don't have a shorter rod. light standard arbor reel. fast action rods are better for windy days and heavier streamers but you have to have a quicker casting stroke. a med-fast is what most of my rods are which can cast everything i fish with but will take more energy to cast out further with heavier flies than a faster action. med. action rod is good for relax casting of dries and those with slower casting strokes. not very good in windy conditions and heavier streamers i found. slow action. whistle while you cast, drink a beer and don't be in a hurry. i'm sure you'll get a lot of other choices.
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steelhound
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RE: newbie question
2012/01/03 23:30:49
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DT got you covered If you ever want to fish Neshanock give me a shout
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anatikus
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RE: newbie question
2012/01/04 10:44:33
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all that sounds spot on.....but might I suggest getting an auto retract fly feel? I find it really helps when covering larger water
fish heads fish heads rolly polly fish heads
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Cold
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RE: newbie question
2012/01/04 11:20:14
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If you're looking at only getting one rod to do everything, I think a 6wt in 9' to 9'6" is pretty much where you want to be. Anything under 6wt and you're losing the ability to put the wood to fresh steel, anything much over 6wt and you're getting into overkill for stocked trout elsewhere in the state.
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DarDys
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RE: newbie question
2012/01/04 12:10:21
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ORIGINAL: Cold If you're looking at only getting one rod to do everything, I think a 6wt in 9' to 9'6" is pretty much where you want to be. Anything under 6wt and you're losing the ability to put the wood to fresh steel, anything much over 6wt and you're getting into overkill for stocked trout elsewhere in the state. I tend to agree, however, it is best to get the right tool for the right job and unfortunately, a nine inch stocked trout and a nine pound fresh steelhead are too far apart to be effectively and enjoyably fished for with the same rod -- overgunned on one or under gunned on the other. While one can shoot a squirrel with the same rifle as one uses for moose, it is not recommended. Get a 7-weight for steel and a 5-weight for pelletheads.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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thedrake
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RE: newbie question
2012/01/04 12:52:52
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ORIGINAL: DarDys Get a 7-weight for steel and a 5-weight for pelletheads. Agreed.
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Skip16503
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RE: newbie question
2012/01/04 12:54:32
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ORIGINAL: thedrake ORIGINAL: DarDys Get a 7-weight for steel and a 5-weight for pelletheads. Agreed. Absolutely agreed... I'm a somewhat Gear pig so I go overboar but I have 3 2 Wt Rods 2 4 Wt Rods 2 5 Wt Rods and a 7 Wt With more in cue
post edited by Skip16503 - 2012/01/04 12:55:40
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camemup
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RE: newbie question
2012/01/04 13:22:32
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dumb... listen to cold... i fish 6 wt. for everything up to midges, expect the 2wt for small wilds.
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Cold
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RE: newbie question
2012/01/04 14:22:29
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ORIGINAL: DarDys I tend to agree, however, it is best to get the right tool for the right job and unfortunately, a nine inch stocked trout and a nine pound fresh steelhead are too far apart to be effectively and enjoyably fished for with the same rod -- overgunned on one or under gunned on the other. While one can shoot a squirrel with the same rifle as one uses for moose, it is not recommended. Get a 7-weight for steel and a 5-weight for pelletheads. Absolutely agree on having the right tool for the task, but in a pinch you can drive tacks with a crescent wrench. For a beginner that may want to try it all for a minimum investment, a 6wt will get it done. If we're expanding to a 2 rod set, I'd probably go 4wt and 7wt, but that's just personal preference. Most 4wts will do everything that a 5wt can, but the pellethead will be a little more exciting.
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echuck66
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RE: newbie question
2012/01/04 20:50:55
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Thanks for all the great input. I actually have a Martin 8' 3pc 6/7wt rod that my nephew gave me years ago when he gave up chasing trout for chasing girls... I had forgotten about it since, as I said, I've been fishing with bait casters and spinning rigs for several years now and had never picked up the art of fly fishing. I think I'll use this rod this spring with the normal trout around SW PA and get used to fishing with a fly rig before next Fall when I will be able to make another trip to Erie to try any new skills I might pick up on the steelhead. I really just need to pick up a reel that will pair up well with this rod for now. During my last trip to 20 mile creek (Dec 28th and 29th), I had the chance to observe a couple of fly fishermen who really were very artistic in their ability to control their casts and were quite productive too. I've been itching to learn to fly fish for several years now, but the cost of the equipment has always turned me off to the sport. Seeing those gentlemen (term used loosely here... lol) really kicked my itch up a few levels, and like I said in my first post, I'm in a position now to get myself some top-notch equipment much cheaper than retail (I work for a sporting goods retailer and have some good employee discount deals available to me as an employment benefit). After reading all the great responses I've gotten from this post, I'm considering ordering one of the Imperial rods from St. Croix. Do any of you own one of these and possibly provide me with some feedback? The rods I'm considering are: I907.4 9' 4pc 7wt I1007.4 10' 4pc 7wt I looked at the rods from G. Loomis, and while they are probably worth the money, I just don't have $400 to put towards a fishing rod. Even with the discounts I am able to get through them, they are sadly still out of my price range... after all, I still have to pay a mortgage, truck payment and support a wife and two small kids (not to mention gas for the truck). Thanks, Charlie
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Cold
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RE: newbie question
2012/01/04 23:01:40
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I don't think St. Croix makes a 'bad' fly rod. If you're using it for steel-only, go for the 10 footer. I went to a 10' 7wt for steel and I appreciate the extra foot for better drift control.
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DarDys
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RE: newbie question
2012/01/05 08:20:04
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ORIGINAL: Cold ORIGINAL: DarDys I tend to agree, however, it is best to get the right tool for the right job and unfortunately, a nine inch stocked trout and a nine pound fresh steelhead are too far apart to be effectively and enjoyably fished for with the same rod -- overgunned on one or under gunned on the other. While one can shoot a squirrel with the same rifle as one uses for moose, it is not recommended. Get a 7-weight for steel and a 5-weight for pelletheads. Absolutely agree on having the right tool for the task, but in a pinch you can drive tacks with a crescent wrench. For a beginner that may want to try it all for a minimum investment, a 6wt will get it done. If we're expanding to a 2 rod set, I'd probably go 4wt and 7wt, but that's just personal preference. Most 4wts will do everything that a 5wt can, but the pellethead will be a little more exciting. True, but I not only bet you $5 that you wouldn't drive tacks with a cresent wrench for eight hours and enjoy it, but that you wouldn't do it a second time.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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Cold
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RE: newbie question
2012/01/05 08:57:04
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With $5 I'd just hire one of the nice gentlemen in the Home Depot parking lot to do the carpentry.
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DarDys
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RE: newbie question
2012/01/05 09:50:43
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I guess I just don't understand how it is thought possible that there is anything at all that can work across the span of differences there are between things as great as the span between stocked trout and steelhead. If the average stocked trout weighs eight ounces and the average steelhead weighs seven pounds that is a factor of 14 difference. Does the same jacket work for that big of a difference in temperature or do most folks have a few different weight jackets? Do people try to make one pair of shoes do everything from hunting/fishing to running to shoveling snow to walking on the beach to playing sports to dress to casual or do they own a few different pairs of shoes and boots to cover the spread of uses? Why should a one-size-fits-all species fly rod be acceptable then? Sure, it can be done, but one sure way not to enjoy flyfishing is for a newbie to get frustrated by equipment.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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doubletaper
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RE: newbie question
2012/01/05 10:14:33
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if you go with a 10' rod, as cold suggest, i'd make sure you get a heavy reel to balance out the rod. if not that long rod is going to get mighty tip heavy by the middle of the day. you work in a sports shop so you be able to get a good balance between rod and reel you get. a 5wt can fish smallies as well as trout better'n a 4wt. in my opinion. i broke a 4wt. trying to bring in a smallie through fast water. maybe it already had a nick in the blank after 3 years, i'm not sure but i'd rather have a 5wt or 6wt fishing rivers where i know there are trout, smallies, and maybe other big fishy's. just my experience. Sure, it can be done, but one sure way not to enjoy flyfishing is for a newbie to get frustrated by equipment. +1
post edited by doubletaper - 2012/01/05 10:17:00
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Cold
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RE: newbie question
2012/01/05 10:43:07
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ORIGINAL: DarDys I guess I just don't understand how it is thought possible that there is anything at all that can work across the span of differences there are between things as great as the span between stocked trout and steelhead. If the average stocked trout weighs eight ounces and the average steelhead weighs seven pounds that is a factor of 14 difference. Does the same jacket work for that big of a difference in temperature or do most folks have a few different weight jackets? Do people try to make one pair of shoes do everything from hunting/fishing to running to shoveling snow to walking on the beach to playing sports to dress to casual or do they own a few different pairs of shoes and boots to cover the spread of uses? Why should a one-size-fits-all species fly rod be acceptable then? Sure, it can be done, but one sure way not to enjoy flyfishing is for a newbie to get frustrated by equipment. First of all, the main point I was emphasizing, is that a 6wt would work for both trout and steel. No more, no less. Fish weight differences really aren't that big of a factor when you're talking about using a 6wt fly rod for trout and steel (using the factor of 14 can go either way too...I most definitely use the same jacket when it's 2 degrees out and 28 degrees out). Yes, it will work for both, end of story. Many trout fishermen use a 6wt rod as their main rod. Many steelhead fishermen use a 6wt rod as their main steelhead rod. To me, that is a strong indicator that the weight can perform double-duty reasonably well. If you want to custom-tailor a setup for a specific type of fishing, obviously, there's benefits, but for most beginners, they want to get on the water with a decent setup, at a reasonable cost, that will open up the most opportunities for them in the fishing they like to do. For a PA angler, that's a 6wt. You can fish stocked trout, warmwater, and steelhead. About the only applications that a 6wt isn't at least a decent choice for would be tiny natives and big fish like stripers, pike, and musky, both in terms of the flies typically used and the fish itself. So would it be ideal to have two separate rods, one for trout and one for steel? Absolutely. Are two rods necessary in order to be able to fish for both and enjoy oneself? Absolutely not. Is it a foregone conclusion that using a 6wt for both species will frustrate a beginner? Definitely not. Is a 6wt so non-ideal that you'd be better off not fishing at all than to try it? I don't think so.
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DarDys
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RE: newbie question
2012/01/05 11:03:59
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You wear a jacket at 28 degrees? Sissy! I understand your point. I just disagree with it. I have caught 125 pound tarpon on a 9-weight, so it can be done, but I prefer an 11-weight (actually like the fish handling ability of the 12-weight even better, but I, a somewhat experienced angler, get too frustrated at the weight of the rod and the slowness of even a "fast" 12-weight to fish it well) because it is better suited for the job. The same is true of a hot, fresh steelhead on a 6-weight. It can be done, but for a newbie hooking into their first few steelhead with that light of a rod and the fish ripping up through other anglers with no experience on how to handle it, it will be frustrating, especially of the fish breaks off, tangles up a few folks, and the ensuing looks don't set the newbie on fire. I have caught 1.5 pound bonefish on a 9-weight (because I was looking for permit and the weight of the fly, not the fish, requires that size rod to cast the needed distance), but prefer a 7-weight because it is just better suited for the fight of the fish. This would be the same are reeling in, and that what it would be, a stocked trout on a 6-weight. It is easly doable, but what would be lost is the element of fight of that size fish on that size rod.
post edited by DarDys - 2012/01/05 11:15:51
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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chosenfrozen1
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RE: newbie question
2012/01/05 11:27:40
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echuck i hope you got your answer(bring two jackets)good luck with your choice im not a flyguy(or gal)but its still better to fish and fine tune your gear to what is comfortable to you.i have never fished with anyone who said his arm was sore because my setup was heavy.
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Cold
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RE: newbie question
2012/01/05 11:36:44
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ORIGINAL: DarDys You wear a jacket at 28 degrees? Sissy! I understand your point. I just disagree with it. Jeez! Tough crowd! I'm glad my comments were taken as they were intended. I did my first two years of steelhead fishing with a 5wt, and while I got some, with the excitement of every hookup also came a little bit of dread, knowing the odds were stacked against me. The third year, I came back with a 7wt and it was much more enjoyable. That said, if everyone had told me not to bother trying for steel with my 5wt, and staying home till I got at least a 7wt...well...I'd have probably chucked the idea, never gone to Erie, and a 5wt would be the heaviest rod I ever owned. For me, putting in those 2 seasons with a 5wt let me know exactly what I wanted in a steelhead rod. Sure, it was frustrating at times, but I think it's a common trait among fishermen...fly fishermen even more than most...to operate from a position o having odds stacked against us, and to be tenacious in seeking success from that position and adapting rather than giving up, once we've set the challenge for ourselves. The challenges are as varied as the anglers themselves. I know I like to use the lightest possible tackle when I'm comfortable with the other factors like location, fly selection, and targetted species. Others like to challenge themselves by targetting a more challenging species of fish, heading to a more unforgiving location, limiting themselves to certain flies or techniques, or even fishing in more challenging conditions like the dead of winter or night. For some, the adapting may indeed involve new gear...a heavier (or lighter) rod, a kayak, a specialty line, a reel with a better drag...and I have yet to meet the fly fisherman who isn't at least a little bit interested in finding new gear.
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DarDys
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RE: newbie question
2012/01/05 12:47:08
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Always taken as intended. Just trying to shorten a newbie's learning curve by recommending what they will eventually do anyway. And if you look at it in a slightly different way, getting two rods now will save them in the long run because if they go with the 6-weight as a catch all, it will be abandoned once they go to a 4 or 5 for trout and a 7 for bass/steelhead, so they will have bought three rods instead of two.
post edited by DarDys - 2012/01/05 14:06:52
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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D-nymph
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RE: newbie question
2012/01/05 13:56:09
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ORIGINAL: Cold That said, if everyone had told me not to bother trying for steel with my 5wt, and staying home till I got at least a 7wt...well...I'd have probably chucked the idea, never gone to Erie, and a 5wt would be the heaviest rod I ever owned. For me, putting in those 2 seasons with a 5wt let me know exactly what I wanted in a steelhead rod. Sure, it was frustrating at times, but I think it's a common trait among fishermen... Oh yea, I remember those posts from you about how it was so frustrating that you were going to quit the steelbow game. lolzerz.
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Cold
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RE: newbie question
2012/01/05 14:22:40
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ORIGINAL: D-nymph Oh yea, I remember those posts from you about how it was so frustrating that you were going to quit the steelbow game. lolzerz. You do? Do you have a link or is there any way to get back to those old threads? I'd be interested to see what was said, both by me and to me.
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DarDys
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RE: newbie question
2012/01/05 14:41:17
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ORIGINAL: Cold ORIGINAL: D-nymph Oh yea, I remember those posts from you about how it was so frustrating that you were going to quit the steelbow game. lolzerz. You do? Do you have a link or is there any way to get back to those old threads? I'd be interested to see what was said, both by me and to me. They said get a 7-weight for steelhead and a 5-weight for trout, but someone kept insisting that a 6-weight would do both.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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D-nymph
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RE: newbie question
2012/01/05 14:42:28
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ORIGINAL: Cold You do? Do you have a link or is there any way to get back to those old threads? I'd be interested to see what was said, both by me and to me. I do not have a link, I'm sure you could dig them up some way. I just remember you being bummed out that you couldn't land any fish your first few trips, then saying you were considering quitting trying. Then some of us were either busting your bawls about it or laughing about it or both.
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Cold
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RE: newbie question
2012/01/05 14:47:04
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Yes, I remember being pretty aggravated by it. Another thing that's changed aside from the rod is that I stopped using 5X. That being said, I've fished with other people's 6wts up there and done just fine, meanwhile, I haven't used the 5wt in question in 2 years because, for some reason, fish get off the line more often than they stay on when I'm using that rod. Probably just something I was doing, but whatever that thing is, it only made a difference with that rod. I was really kinda hoping someone had found a simple way to read threads more than a year old here, too, though.
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D-nymph
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RE: newbie question
2012/01/05 15:07:56
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ORIGINAL: Cold I was really kinda hoping someone had found a simple way to read threads more than a year old here, too, though. Go to the page listing at the top right, click on the double arrow. That will take you to the first posts, March 2007. Then work backwards skipping every few pages until you get into the time frame you're looking for. That's about as easy as it can be on this site. The post in a few of those threads and watch people act like it's a new thread, not one that's 4-5 years old.
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Pork
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RE: newbie question
2012/01/05 15:12:30
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"If you ever get hit with a bucket of fish, be sure to close your eyes." ><)))*>
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D-nymph
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RE: newbie question
2012/01/05 15:20:01
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