Interesting Whitetail Article

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CrossForkWookie
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2011/12/20 12:58:08 (permalink)

Interesting Whitetail Article

http://www.iup.edu/magazine/feature.aspx?id=118417


Look for trophy caterpillars coming to a forest near you.



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    eyesandgillz
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    RE: Interesting Whitetail Article 2011/12/20 14:10:52 (permalink)
    Pretty balanced article, from what I read. I would be interested in reading the results of the full study.
    #2
    S-10
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    RE: Interesting Whitetail Article 2011/12/20 14:12:47 (permalink)
    There is a prime example of research starting off on the wrong foot. The state has spent over 60 years promoting it's Black Cherry and now he is suggesting the deer are to blame for it's expansion because they don't eat the stuff. He should have been around when the Cherry was being planted and tubed in all the new clearcuts to protect it from the deer who ate all they could get. They planted Cherry where ever it wasn't growing on it's own and made no bones about it. Now it's a no no to admit the forest service was promoting Cherry over the other woods due to it's value because the enveromentalists might get upset. Surprise, they already know. Hell, they were even fertlizing it in areas to get it to grow out of reach of the deer faster and it was a fast growing tree to begin with.
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    CrossForkWookie
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    RE: Interesting Whitetail Article 2011/12/20 16:32:15 (permalink)
    http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/forestry/documents/PA_DCNR_FIA.pdf


    Something S-10 said made me do some searching and ran across this. Didn't find what I was looking for but thought this was interesting reading as well
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    RSB
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    RE: Interesting Whitetail Article 2011/12/20 18:54:48 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: CrossForkWookie

    http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/forestry/documents/PA_DCNR_FIA.pdf


    Something S-10 said made me do some searching and ran across this. Didn't find what I was looking for but thought this was interesting reading as well

     
    Hey, I know those people in the fence picture.
     
    That picture was taken here in Elk County at one of the areas clear-cut in 1996 with half of it being fenced and half unfenced. The picture was taken in 2000 with my wife and I outside the fence while Land Management Officer John Dzemyan is seen inside the fence.
     
    R.S. Bodenhorn
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    wayne c
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    RE: Interesting Whitetail Article 2011/12/20 18:57:10 (permalink)
    Partners
    The PA Department of Conservation and Natural Resources’
    Bureau of Forestry and the U.S. Department of Agriculture’s
    Forest Service developed this publication along with the
    following cooperating agencies and organizations:
    10,000 Friends of Pennsylvania
    Chesapeake Bay Foundation
    Conservation and Natural Resources Advisory Council
    Pennsylvania Audubon Society
    Pennsylvania Environmental Council
    Pennsylvania Hardwoods Development Council
    Pennsylvania Game Commission
    Penn State School of Forest Resources Cooperative
    Extension
    Pennsylvania Forest Products Association
    Sustainable Forestry Initiative of Pennsylvania
    The Nature Conservancy
    Western Pennsylvania Conservancy


    At least they listed who is running deer management in Pa. Pretty deer friendly bunch Id say.
    #6
    retired guy
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    RE: Interesting Whitetail Article 2011/12/20 19:03:50 (permalink)
       One article and survey said they dont eat it so it grows all over the place and the other says it was planted fertilized and had fence put around it so they couldnt eat it cause they like it  -- kinda reminds me  of what DAR said bout info sources.
    post edited by retired guy - 2011/12/20 19:04:14
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    bingsbaits
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    RE: Interesting Whitetail Article 2011/12/20 19:08:18 (permalink)
    Why is there no Cheery trees outside the fence if the deer do not like them.


    One critter that is very hard on sprouting Cherry trees is Turkeys.
    The company I work for was doing a plot study of Cherry regeneration and had a couple plots with substantial Cherry trees sprouting. The next time they checked it the Turkeys had come through and just hammered all those fresh little sprouts.

    Mabee that's why we have no problem getting Turkey season off.

    "There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
     
     


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    RSB
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    RE: Interesting Whitetail Article 2011/12/20 19:31:19 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: S-10

    There is a prime example of research starting off on the wrong foot. The state has spent over 60 years promoting it's Black Cherry and now he is suggesting the deer are to blame for it's expansion because they don't eat the stuff. He should have been around when the Cherry was being planted and tubed in all the new clearcuts to protect it from the deer who ate all they could get. They planted Cherry where ever it wasn't growing on it's own and made no bones about it. Now it's a no no to admit the forest service was promoting Cherry over the other woods due to it's value because the enveromentalists might get upset. Surprise, they already know. Hell, they were even fertlizing it in areas to get it to grow out of reach of the deer faster and it was a fast growing tree to begin with.

     
    At one time the U.S. Forest Service had thousands of tree tubes in various areas of my district. I never saw them tube a cherry seedling with the exception of in a couple of savannas where nothing seemed to grow. I think they just put tube them there to see if they could get anything to grow in the savannas. Mostly they were tubing oaks and sugar maples from what I could see in the areas around here. They didn’t seem to have much luck with the tubes though since the bears would go through and ripe them down and it seemed they did it just for something to do.
     
    In most areas around here it wasn’t too hard to get cherry to regenerate, though there were some areas in the 90s where the deer densities got so high they couldn’t get black cherry or even mountain laurel past the deer browsing. Now it seems black birch is taking over about every place in the National Forest that hasn’t already been taken over by the buckthorn. Neither of which is very good when it comes to providing food for deer though.  
     
    R.S. Bodenhorn  
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    RSB
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    RE: Interesting Whitetail Article 2011/12/20 19:44:16 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: bingsbaits

    Why is there no Cheery trees outside the fence if the deer do not like them.


    One critter that is very hard on sprouting Cherry trees is Turkeys.
    The company I work for was doing a plot study of Cherry regeneration and had a couple plots with substantial Cherry trees sprouting. The next time they checked it the Turkeys had come through and just hammered all those fresh little sprouts.

    Mabee that's why we have no problem getting Turkey season off.

     
    In the area of the fence picture the forest type is mixed oak so there weren’t a lot of mature black cherry in the area to provide a seed source. Even inside the fence it was, and still it is, mostly maples, oak and pin cherry with some tulip poplar, cucumber magnolia, sassafras and American beech mixed in.
     
    Outside the fence now, fifteen years after it was cut, the area finally has some regeneration but it is mostly beech, black birch and mountain laurel, probably because those aren’t highly preferred deer browse species.
     
    We still use that fence as one of the demonstration areas on our Game Lands/Deer Management Tours.
     
    R.S. Bodenhorn
     
    #10
    RSB
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    RE: Interesting Whitetail Article 2011/12/20 19:52:16 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: retired guy

       One article and survey said they dont eat it so it grows all over the place and the other says it was planted fertilized and had fence put around it so they couldnt eat it cause they like it  -- kinda reminds me  of what DAR said bout info sources.

     
    What article said they liked it and they had to fence it to keep the deer from eating cherry?
     
    I am sure there are areas where cherry was all there was the deer were eating it but I would also suspect if it was so bad the deer had to eat the cherry that the deer populations soon crashed in those areas.
     
    In the northern hardwoods (black cherry, maple and beech) of this area even when they couldn’t get anything else to regenerate in the U.S. Forest Service clear-cuts most of them did come back pretty well with black cherry. Now we have a lot of black cherry pole timber in those old clear-cuts from twenty and thirty years ago.
     
    R.S. Bodenhorn
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    retired guy
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    RE: Interesting Whitetail Article 2011/12/20 20:57:52 (permalink)
    RSB
       The second article  asserts that Deer eat seedlings inhibiting the regrowth of forests=we can surely agree with that - it goes on to say that Ferns and Striped Maple are NOT favored foods and continue to grow in experimental areas- there is no mention of the Cherry which would cause one to believe that it is not an unfavored food- the Cherry is mentioned throughout the article in other areas but is left out as an unfavored food source.
         By virtue of its NOT being included it kinda leads one down the path of thinking Deer eat the Cherry- at least as it begins to grow as a seedling be it a Winter food source or on a regular basis- they eat it.
         Also by virtue of its being left out of  second report it kinda implies a great difference of importance in regard to Deer predation  than the opinions stated in the first report.
       10 reports the planting fertilizing and fencing to the Cherry and I have no reason to doubt his observations as this is clearly a cash crop and desired by many. In both reports it is indicated IMHO as being found in healthy numbers in PA.
       Remember the first report indicated the increase in the Cherry was a reason for the decline in numbers of songbird populations and the Deer NOT feeding on Cherry was a primary reason given.
      They blamed the Deer yet in the second report the Deer issue is a byline if anything at all.
       It would seem reading the second article that the Cherry is a highly favored cash crop and never mentioned as a seedling NOT eaten by Deer when such food sources were in fact listed. =thus making one wonder----
        Not takin issue with the probable fact that the abundance of the Cherry may be problematic to songbird populations   but the blaming of the Deer for a cash crop tree being very sucesful IMHO may go a bit too far as there are many factors at work here including, what may be a good thing to many, as  long range forest  regeneration for the cash crop.
    post edited by retired guy - 2011/12/20 21:33:38
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    S-10
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    RE: Interesting Whitetail Article 2011/12/20 21:33:29 (permalink)
    There are lots of articles talking about the deer liking the cherry, perhaps not as well as some of the oak but they would readilly eat it. The thing with cherry is you may get thousands of seedlings from a single tree but even without any deer around 99.99% of them would die out in a few years without significant sunlight.

    Put the seedlings in a clearcut or anyplace with sunlight and they sprouted very well. The tubes acted as an incubator as well as protecting them from rodents or a passing deer. The ones I was involved in were used mostly for cherry and red oak. As RSB stated the bear could cause some problems but there were only about 10% of the bear then that there are now so it wasn't the problem it would be today.

    There was a lot of effort put into increasing the cherry until the greens started getting involved with ECO-System Management and fought the forest service over what they termed cherry tree farms. It wasn't even close to that but perception wins over logic quite often.
    post edited by S-10 - 2011/12/20 21:35:25
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    retired guy
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    RE: Interesting Whitetail Article 2011/12/20 21:46:03 (permalink)
       One would think that a lot has to do with the number of DPSM and the availability of  other Winter food sources aside from young Cherry.
    The Deer out back of me are already on Hemlock and Cedar even without snow due to a severe lack of mast crop this year. If we had any number of Cherry or any other third choice food source they would now be on that too.
    In areas of no agriculture and mature forest their predation can certainly affect future tree growth and how the woods will look 50 years from now.
    Might just be one aspect of the 'wars' issue.
      As the woodlands mature  and the farming in many areas is reduced significantly things are a changin.
      Drove through an area of Southern NY  in the Cats I hunted 40 years ago when it was  turning over from old farmlands. - had lotsa Deer back then- now - canopy and the folks I know there say the Deer pop. is way way down.
    post edited by retired guy - 2011/12/20 21:51:00
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