BareSkillz178
New Angler
- Total Posts : 10
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2011/10/03 17:05:37
- Status: offline
90 % of bucks killed under year & a half old
Just read an article on the breakdown of PA deer harvests the past five years.
Reoccuring theme shows how young our deer herd really is. Gotta be hard to see the benefit effects of antler restrictions with statistics like this lol... Just goes to show the quality PA genetics growin 8 point and 10 point racks their first year. Limit the gun power a little bit and we'll be up there with Ohio and Illinois in no time
|
S-10
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 5185
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2005/01/21 21:22:55
- Status: offline
RE: 90 % of bucks killed under year & a half old
2011/10/11 14:45:13
(permalink)
Did you check the date on that article?
|
MuskyMastr
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 3032
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2005/06/30 17:39:29
- Location: Valley of the Crazy Woman
- Status: offline
RE: 90 % of bucks killed under year & a half old
2011/10/11 14:51:32
(permalink)
Why do we care if we are up there with Ill and OH? Trophy hunting is a "sport" of rich men. I hunt to provide meat for my family and spend time afield with them. OH and Il. can keep their regulations if you ask me, thanks.
post edited by MuskyMastr - 2011/10/11 23:47:27
Better too far back, than too far forward.
|
SilverKype
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 3842
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2005/01/24 11:58:02
- Location: State
- Status: offline
RE: 90 % of bucks killed under year & a half old
2011/10/11 15:08:30
(permalink)
The stat is even a high for pre-AR.
My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
|
Flying Fish
Avid Angler
- Total Posts : 240
- Reward points: 0
- Status: offline
RE: 90 % of bucks killed under year & a half old
2011/10/11 16:27:08
(permalink)
Can't believe that stat is true today with AR.
|
ridgehunter
Expert Angler
- Total Posts : 627
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2009/10/22 21:00:13
- Status: offline
RE: 90 % of bucks killed under year & a half old
2011/10/11 21:02:14
(permalink)
Not true at all. 90% of bucks in that age range would be lucky to tote a 4 pt. rack let alone 8-10.
|
BareSkillz178
New Angler
- Total Posts : 10
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2011/10/03 17:05:37
- Status: offline
RE: 90 % of bucks killed under year & a half old
2011/10/11 21:37:12
(permalink)
Well no lot's of bucks that start off eight points will be eight points their whole life. Growing more points by the year doesn't happen too often. And I'm not saying AR isn't helping - this was only saying there's potential for quality genetics here.
big fan of family and time afield myself. It's all about the experience. Put a couple more 4 and a half year old buck in my sights and it's that much better -just sayin
|
RE: 90 % of bucks killed under year & a half old
2011/10/11 21:40:15
(permalink)
I believe our biologist would differ from that statement. Agree though, alot of bucks taken in some areas are young but not that percentage statewide
|
MuskyMastr
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 3032
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2005/06/30 17:39:29
- Location: Valley of the Crazy Woman
- Status: offline
RE: 90 % of bucks killed under year & a half old
2011/10/11 23:50:54
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: ridgehunter
Not true at all. 90% of bucks in that age range would be lucky to tote a 4 pt. rack let alone 8-10.
Not sure where you are at, but here in WPA 1.5YO 8 pts are extremely common. 1.5YO 10 pts are not uncommon either. This I can speak from experience on as I have aged 30 - 40 of them over the past 20 years. In the northern Tier, maybe less common, but not here.
Better too far back, than too far forward.
|
SteelieWheelie
Expert Angler
- Total Posts : 991
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2008/10/05 12:56:44
- Status: offline
RE: 90 % of bucks killed under year & a half old
2011/10/12 07:06:49
(permalink)
The buck that i shot was 1.5 yrs. See how many points he had?
Early to bed Early to rise Fish like hell And make up lies!
|
BareSkillz178
New Angler
- Total Posts : 10
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2011/10/03 17:05:37
- Status: offline
RE: 90 % of bucks killed under year & a half old
2011/10/12 09:40:55
(permalink)
Yea I saw that buck steelie, nice job btw.. That's exactly the point here.
Obviously not too many people are gonna pass up a respectable 9 point like that (especially in PA) but put a few more years on that bad boy and he'd be a real stud
It's just hard for deer to grow up with 30-06's waiting on every hilltop
|
S-10
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 5185
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2005/01/21 21:22:55
- Status: offline
RE: 90 % of bucks killed under year & a half old
2011/10/12 11:17:48
(permalink)
The average 1-1/2 year old buck in Pa is not close to an 8 point.
The average 2-1/2 year old buck in Pa is not even an 8 point.
There are many 2-1/2 year old eights and even some nines and tens but there are far more fours, fives sixes, and sevens than nines and tens.
The research done by the KQDC on the ANF and private land found that in that area 9% of the 3-1/2 year olds were not even a seven point.
|
SilverKype
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 3842
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2005/01/24 11:58:02
- Location: State
- Status: offline
RE: 90 % of bucks killed under year & a half old
2011/10/12 12:36:51
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: S-10
The average 1-1/2 year old buck in Pa is not close to an 8 point.
The average 2-1/2 year old buck in Pa is not even an 8 point.
There are many 2-1/2 year old eights and even some nines and tens but there are far more fours, fives sixes, and sevens than nines and tens.
The research done by the KQDC on the ANF and private land found that in that area 9% of the 3-1/2 year olds were not even a seven point.
What are those statements based on ? Especially the second one.
My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
|
S-10
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 5185
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2005/01/21 21:22:55
- Status: offline
RE: 90 % of bucks killed under year & a half old
2011/10/12 13:57:16
(permalink)
Wihout trying to find all the info the two that come to mind is the the number of 2-1/2 year old bucks went from 20% to 50% statewide but the number of eight points or better only increased by 17% per PGC data that has been posted and discussed on here several times.
The other is the research done by the KQDA that showed that on the ANF and private ground they run they found that 38.7% of the 2-1/2 and 9.7% of the 3-1/2 year old bucks would not be legal under the 4 point restriction.
A interesting comment in the Draft Deer plan addressing the antler development as a result of AR/HR-------QUOTE: We do not expect a (biologicially significant) decline in antler quality of Pa's deer population as a result of antler restrictions.
Also for what it's worth, RSB posted the results of a survey they do every year over the same routes in his area on Pa. bucks site. The average percent of spikes they saw over the last 9 years was 25%. It's unofficial but it takes a lot of 10 points to bring a spike up to a 8 point average.
Since they don't consider a 7-8% error in harvest numbers or a +/- 30% varience in actual deer numbers significant one has to wonder what they consider sifnificant in antler decline.
|
SilverKype
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 3842
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2005/01/24 11:58:02
- Location: State
- Status: offline
RE: 90 % of bucks killed under year & a half old
2011/10/12 14:17:31
(permalink)
I'm not sure KQDA is a representation of the entire state. You negative guys make me feel all warm and fuzzy about my hunting area with all those 2.5 yo 8 pts running around. Secret soil under there I'll tell ya !
My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
|
S-10
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 5185
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2005/01/21 21:22:55
- Status: offline
RE: 90 % of bucks killed under year & a half old
2011/10/12 15:01:20
(permalink)
I never said there wasn't any, I said they didn't average that statewide and cited evidence to support my statement. It was made to counter the claims on this thread of all the 8-10 1-1/2 year olds and the super soil we have (4.5-5.0 PH )  You have lots of cameras out in the summer, what percent of your bucks are 8 or better?
|
SilverKype
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 3842
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2005/01/24 11:58:02
- Location: State
- Status: offline
RE: 90 % of bucks killed under year & a half old
2011/10/12 15:39:57
(permalink)
You did say the average 2.5 yo in pa is not an 8 pt. That just seems absurb. What is your definition of average ? 50 %? You are asking a question that is not the same as your previous statement. I'm comfortable saying over 80% of 2.5 yo are 8 pts where I hunt. Total % of bucks on camera 8 or better is probably around 60%.
My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
|
RE: 90 % of bucks killed under year & a half old
2011/10/12 15:51:24
(permalink)
The research done by the KQDC on the ANF and private land found that in that area 9% of the 3-1/2 year olds were not even a seven point. I could belive that. I would disagree with those figures in other areas of the state though.
|
eyesandgillz
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 4050
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2003/06/18 11:30:03
- Status: offline
RE: 90 % of bucks killed under year & a half old
2011/10/12 15:57:06
(permalink)
In my area, less than 5% of 1.5 yr olds are spikes. Even late born fawns from the previous year eat well enough to get some branched antlers their first year. The majority of the 1.5 yr olds in my area were legal under the old 4 pt. rule. Not shooters for me but legal nonetheless.
|
S-10
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 5185
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2005/01/21 21:22:55
- Status: offline
RE: 90 % of bucks killed under year & a half old
2011/10/12 17:31:39
(permalink)
You did say the average 2.5 yo in pa is not an 8 pt. That just seems absurb. What is your definition of average ? 50 %? You are asking a question that is not the same as your previous statement. I'm comfortable saying over 80% of 2.5 yo are 8 pts where I hunt. Total % of bucks on camera 8 or better is probably around 60%.
_____________________________ Count all the 2-1/2 year old bucks, add up all their points, divide the total number of points by the total number of bucks. The average will be less than eight. 50% of our bucks are 1-1/2 per the PGC 50% of our bucks are older than 1-1/2 half per the PGC A buck had to have at least 4 on a side in some areas and 3 on a side in many others. This protects 50% of bucks from harvest per the PGC Automatically half our bucks can't have 8 points, most can't even be 6 points Chris Rosenberry stated in a 2010 N.A. Whitetail article our harvested bucks average 7 points as a result of AR. Since we can't shoot half our bucks because they are too small and the average of the rest(including 3-4and 5yo) is only 7 points and knowing we do have some 1-1/2 that are eight points show me any rational reasoning that our 2-1/2 year olds can average eight. Also for what it is worth Virginia did such a survey on their 2-1/2 year olds and found the average was 7 or 7.1 (I don't recall which)
|
RE: 90 % of bucks killed under year & a half old
2011/10/12 18:01:36
(permalink)
And here we go again, as per the PGC. And where is this data gathered from , A single WCO driving around in their district and counting points like the turkey data ?
|
Esox_Hunter
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 2393
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2006/08/02 14:32:57
- Status: offline
RE: 90 % of bucks killed under year & a half old
2011/10/12 18:44:35
(permalink)
S-10, do you have the age distribution for the 50% of bucks that do not meet the minimum AR requirements?
|
S-10
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 5185
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2005/01/21 21:22:55
- Status: offline
RE: 90 % of bucks killed under year & a half old
2011/10/12 18:57:37
(permalink)
Esox--just the one from the KQDA research where 38.7% of the 2-1/2 and 9.7% of the 3-1/2 yo didn't make the 4 point AR.. The PGC in most cases just talks about improving the age of the deer and declines to discuss the points per age group. The only one from them I recall was the fact that AR had increased the 8 points by 17%. This was after increasing the 2-1/2 year olds to 50% of the herd. That alone should tell the tale.
|
Esox_Hunter
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 2393
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2006/08/02 14:32:57
- Status: offline
RE: 90 % of bucks killed under year & a half old
2011/10/12 19:18:55
(permalink)
I was just curious if there was ever data published that estimated the percentage of legal bucks to total bucks broken down by age class. I have to admit, since AR I have seen a total of 2 bucks which I am certain were 2.5+YO that did not meet the 4pt AR at the time. Based on cameras and sightings, I would estimate that about 60% 1.5YOs here met the 4pt AR and likely a bit more would/will meet the 3 up. Here is a good read from TN that shows the correlation between age and points: http://www.tn.gov/twra/pdfs/deerantlers.pdf
|
S-10
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 5185
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2005/01/21 21:22:55
- Status: offline
RE: 90 % of bucks killed under year & a half old
2011/10/12 19:45:01
(permalink)
That is a good read. In the area around my house I have the following 2 8pt 2-1/2 1 7pt " 1 6pt 3-1/2 3 6pt 1-1/2 1 5pt 1-1/2 1-4pt 1-1/2 1 2pt 1-1/2 There may be a few more drifters but I have a good handle on the regulars. This year is above average for number of points on my 1-1/2yo.
post edited by S-10 - 2011/10/12 19:47:47
|
MuskyMastr
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 3032
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2005/06/30 17:39:29
- Location: Valley of the Crazy Woman
- Status: offline
RE: 90 % of bucks killed under year & a half old
2011/10/12 21:12:25
(permalink)
Without putting a dog in this fight I will input this info.
I have witnessed the KQDC check station count deer that are reported from outside thier study area, and they personally aged my 1.5 YO deer at 3.5.
KQDC Data is junk. Just like the FLIR results that the forester changed the flight plan (that was agreed upon by all parties months ahead of time), changed the flight plan 30 min before takeoff to include an enclosed "deer farm/hunting ranch"
KQDC Data = Junk that is the only thing that is certain about that info.
Better too far back, than too far forward.
|
SilverKype
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 3842
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2005/01/24 11:58:02
- Location: State
- Status: offline
RE: 90 % of bucks killed under year & a half old
2011/10/12 21:24:14
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: S-10
You did say the average 2.5 yo in pa is not an 8 pt. That just seems absurb. What is your definition of average ? 50 %? You are asking a question that is not the same as your previous statement. I'm comfortable saying over 80% of 2.5 yo are 8 pts where I hunt. Total % of bucks on camera 8 or better is probably around 60%.
_____________________________
Count all the 2-1/2 year old bucks, add up all their points, divide the total number of points by the total number of bucks. The average will be less than eight.
50% of our bucks are 1-1/2 per the PGC
50% of our bucks are older than 1-1/2 half per the PGC
A buck had to have at least 4 on a side in some areas and 3 on a side in many others.
This protects 50% of bucks from harvest per the PGC
Automatically half our bucks can't have 8 points, most can't even be 6 points
Chris Rosenberry stated in a 2010 N.A. Whitetail article our harvested bucks average 7 points as a result of AR.
Since we can't shoot half our bucks because they are too small and the average of the rest(including 3-4and 5yo) is only 7 points and knowing we do have some 1-1/2 that are eight points show me any rational reasoning that our 2-1/2 year olds can average eight.
Also for what it is worth Virginia did such a survey on their 2-1/2 year olds and found the average was 7 or 7.1 (I don't recall which)
I could be being narrow minded thinking of my area. An area I used to hunt does have some scrubs.. not sure why. I used to ask dad why we traveled an hour to other spots when we had one 10 minutes away. That idea is believed by alot of people..the bucks are just better. That being said, the scrub area was and still is overrun with deer.
My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
|
MuskyMastr
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 3032
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2005/06/30 17:39:29
- Location: Valley of the Crazy Woman
- Status: offline
RE: 90 % of bucks killed under year & a half old
2011/10/12 21:38:00
(permalink)
I can come clean those scrubs out for you if the place needs attention that bad. Just sayin...
Better too far back, than too far forward.
|
rmcmillen09
Expert Angler
- Total Posts : 827
- Reward points: 0
- Status: offline
RE: 90 % of bucks killed under year & a half old
2011/10/12 22:11:19
(permalink)
I personally don,t believe any of the studies and the other graphs and charts we see . They are flawed and inconsistent contradicting themselves over and over. We were lied to in the start of the whole thing 10 years back. More than once, fool me once shame on you , fool me twice shame on me.
|
krott243
Expert Angler
- Total Posts : 954
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2002/10/07 09:02:16
- Location: Fairview, PA
- Status: offline
RE: 90 % of bucks killed under year & a half old
2011/10/12 23:07:40
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: S-10
The average 1-1/2 year old buck in Pa is not close to an 8 point.
The average 2-1/2 year old buck in Pa is not even an 8 point.
There are many 2-1/2 year old eights and even some nines and tens but there are far more fours, fives sixes, and sevens than nines and tens.
The research done by the KQDC on the ANF and private land found that in that area 9% of the 3-1/2 year olds were not even a seven point.
Where are these averages coming from? Averaging even 50% of the bucks statewide is not possible. It can vary county to county, township to township, woodlot to woodlot. I primarily hunt a section in Erie county, that of 12 bucks I have on camera have these stats. 6- 1 1/2 yr old 5 pt 7 pt 7 pt 8 pt 8 pt 3- 2 1/2 yr old 7 pt 8 pt 8 pt 2- 3 1/2 yr old 8 pt 10 pt 1- 4 1/2 yr old 10 pt
The Lord has blessed us all today... It's just that he has been particularly good to me.
|