S-10
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RE: Erie paper article on SH
2011/07/26 15:57:20
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This is part of an article off the Black Bear Blog that breaks down who is for and against a bit more. I didn't post the whole thing because it talks a lot comparing our reasons with North Carolina. Seems like most of the Non- Landowners are for it but most of the hunters who are landowners are against it. Sunday Hunting Poll For Pennsylvania Shows Not Much Support Home > Sunday Hunting Poll For Pennsylvania Shows Not Much Support A recent survey conducted in Pennsylvania shows that it may be some time before expanded hunting, meaning big game – deer, bear, etc. – will be part of the hunters’ menu. According to Jim Collins of the Daily & Sunday Review, the survey shows most hunters don’t favor a Sunday hunt. The readers have been passionate in their position on this subject. 70% of non-landowner hunters want to see Sundays open for hunting. A solid 80 percent of hunter/landowners want either no expansion of Sunday hunting, or a very limited trial. Almost 100 percent of non-hunter landowners object to any expansion of Sunday hunting. I find this a more helpful survey in that it gives us a closer look at a broader cross-section of the populace, including hunters, non-hunters and landowners who hunt and those that don’t. The bottom line is that clearly the majority don’t favor expanding the Sunday hunt. The difference that I see between the opposition to Pennsylvania’s Sunday hunt and in North Carolina, where they have been debating the same issue, is where the focus of the debate has turned. In Collin’s report, the focus of the debate seems to be directed at hunter’s actions and land access. The problem is that many private landowners are opposed to any expansion of Sunday hunting. Since most hunting lands are private, the landowners control this issue. After all, without private lands to hunt upon, the issue is really moot. Expanded Sunday hunting cannot be sustained upon public lands only. Read more: http://www.skinnymoose.com/bbb/2006/12/11/sunday-hunting-poll-for-pennsylvania-shows-not-much-support/#ixzz1TF7Kl4rJ
post edited by S-10 - 2011/07/26 15:58:07
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Erie paper article on SH
2011/07/26 18:53:00
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No different than bars, stores, strip clubs, and every other business open on Sunday I disagree.. there is a BIG difference... most Pennsylvanians, hunters and non-hunters, wanted all those changes... they wanted to "spend" and wanted to do it on Sundays as well as every other day during the week... The problem we have with Sunday Hunting is there is more non-support than any of those "blue law" changes had.... as mentioned even the hunters themselves are split on the idea...
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/07/26 18:57:23
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tull66 
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RE: Erie paper article on SH
2011/07/26 20:42:41
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Let's start a list of things it is illegal to do on Sunday.
1-Hunt
I'm done.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The closer we adhere to the Holy Bible and the US Constitution (as it was written) the closer we get to the model that made America great. The great American experiment worked, human nature just got in the way.
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psu_fish
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RE: Erie paper article on SH
2011/07/26 21:02:09
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ORIGINAL: tull66
Let's start a list of things it is illegal to do on Sunday.
1-Hunt
I'm done.
Buy a car from a dealership
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Erie paper article on SH
2011/07/26 23:12:53
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Buy a bottle of whiskey or wine at a state store... Buy a six pack of beer at most grocery or convenient stores...
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/07/26 23:14:07
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RE: Erie paper article on SH
2011/07/26 23:39:46
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tull66
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RE: Erie paper article on SH
2011/07/27 07:59:52
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ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
Buy a bottle of whiskey or wine at a state store...
Buy a six pack of beer at most grocery or convenient stores...
State stores are open Sunday. You can buy beer at grocery stores on Sunday.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The closer we adhere to the Holy Bible and the US Constitution (as it was written) the closer we get to the model that made America great. The great American experiment worked, human nature just got in the way.
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DarDys
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RE: Erie paper article on SH
2011/07/27 08:00:41
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ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
Buy a bottle of whiskey or wine at a state store...
Buy a six pack of beer at most grocery or convenient stores...
Beer is available on Sundays at grocery stores and some convenient stores around here. All distributers around these parts are open noon to five on Sunday. I thought, but cannot confirm, there was going to be a trial for opening State Stores for that same noon to five time slot as well. If they go private, you bet there will be Sunday sales.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Erie paper article on SH
2011/07/27 08:25:13
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I did not know state stores were open on Sunday ... when did that change ???
Please explain where these folks are saying that all this extra money is going to be coming from. ..
we had this discussion before and I showed how it was not going to be that much more and in fact maybe even less..... guys with hunting camps will be in the woods hunting on Sundays rather than at camp or in town "spending" because they can not be in the woods hunting currently ....
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dpms
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RE: Erie paper article on SH
2011/07/27 09:11:09
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IMO, the topics of dollars and/or religion shouldn't be part of this discussion of Sunday hunting or the transfer of regulatory control. Each one is used to fortify one side of the discussion but neither shoud be part of the debate.
My rifle is a black rifle
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RE: Erie paper article on SH
2011/07/27 14:15:12
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RE: Erie paper article on SH
2011/07/27 14:21:04
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ORIGINAL: dpms
IMO, the topics of dollars and/or religion shouldn't be part of this discussion of Sunday hunting or the transfer of regulatory control. Each one is used to fortify one side of the discussion but neither shoud be part of the debate.
Your entitled to your opinion. Polititions think otherwise.
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dpms
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RE: Erie paper article on SH
2011/07/27 15:13:27
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ORIGINAL: Outdoor Adventures
Polititions think otherwise.
Yep.
My rifle is a black rifle
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tull66
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RE: Erie paper article on SH
2011/07/27 16:04:44
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ORIGINAL: dpms
IMO, the topics of dollars and/or religion shouldn't be part of this discussion of Sunday hunting or the transfer of regulatory control. Each one is used to fortify one side of the discussion but neither shoud be part of the debate. Agree 100%, well put. This is totally a freedom thing to me and a law that never should have made to the books in this country.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The closer we adhere to the Holy Bible and the US Constitution (as it was written) the closer we get to the model that made America great. The great American experiment worked, human nature just got in the way.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Erie paper article on SH
2011/07/27 18:31:19
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Sunday should double their income from hunters if not more   I can go on and on but if you don't get it by now you never will and I feel the same ... I live and work in the middle of a popular hunting area for years and years... I work/live with those hunters and deer camp folks so I think I have a pretty good idea of what they do and how they spend their Sundays in hunting season currently ... and you are free to believe what you want ... adding a Sunday will give them an opportunity to harvest more game ... but I do not see them spending any more money than they do now... As for the motel example = Sure they may NOW pay for a Fridays night stay .. hunt Saturday.. stay at the motel Saturday night .. go home on Sunday(check out usually 11am)... motel gets two nights lodging.. I do not know of too many deer hunters that hunt all day Saturday then travel home Saturday night.. at least not around here.. maybe your area is different... bring in Sunday hunting === they leave the motel at 6am Sunday to hunt... why would they pay an extra day when they will be going home to work on Monday . place still gets at best two nights lodging... no extra income there... Sunday morning breakfast .. If the hunters are the let's buy breakfast types they will probably buy breakfast Sunday morning whether they are then going hunting or as they do now before going home later in the day... All this extra income from Sunday hunting sounds just like the bull the Pa wilds throws out there about all the extra BIG BUCKS we will have making tourism the #1 thing for this area rather than hunting and fishing .... all those minium wage jobs tourism will create for those looking for employment..  If they want to make Sunday hunting legal ... so be it.. but call it like it is... it's about giving a few hunters extra opportunites to hunt... thus... adding days to kill game and especially DEER.. it is what it is .. !!!!!
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/07/27 18:35:50
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RE: Erie paper article on SH
2011/07/27 19:29:08
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Erie paper article on SH
2011/07/27 19:34:12
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July 2011 by Gary Blockus === To hunt or not to hunt on Sundays in Pennsylvania, that is the perplexing question.
Some people are lauding the Pennsylvania Game Commission's resolution to support a legislature-initiated bill that would remove the ban on Sunday hunting in the commonwealth.
Whichever your camp, get ready to send emails and regular mails to your state representatives and senators because this is going to be one loud battle among sportsmen, farmers, landowners and the rest of the outdoors public.
Thanks to The Morning Call website, my blog, Facebook and Twitter accounts, I have received pros and cons from both parties, as well as from noninterested parties.
On Facebook, one outdoorsman decried Sunday hunting as the end of the deer herd in Pennsylvania. A nonhunter from the Philadelphia area posted that there's no way that will ever happen. Check out Valley Forge for details.
When Pennsylvania Game Commission executive director Carl G. Roe talked about opening up Sundays for youth hunting in order to give kids involved in other youth sports an additional opportunity to get out to hunt, I thought that had merit, but questioned how many landowners would allow Sunday hunting on their properties.
Obviously State Game Lands would be open should the Legislature rescind the ban and Gov. Corbett signs the proposed bill into law.
But the game commission's board of commissioners did not write a proposal for youth hunting on Sundays, they wrote it for hunting on Sundays. They did not write it for archery hunting-only on Sundays, as is the case in neighboringNew Jersey.
The Pennsylvania Farm Bureau Association has already come out opposed to any Sunday hunting.
I'm siding with the farmers on this one.
My opposition with Sunday hunting (other than for predators, which is more a pastime than a passion for the small portion of almost 1 million licensed-Pennsylvania hunters) has to do with a day of rest for the hunted, and a day of recreation for the landowners and the people of the state.
I just can't picture myself walking the trails of Beltzville State Park or Ricketts Glen State Park while rifles are being fired or hunters in tree stands are yelling at me as I pedal by on my mountain bike.
I stay out of the new trails on the Lehigh County-owned Trexler Nature Preserve Monday through Saturday during archery season because archery hunting is allowed there. Come Sunday, it's a tough workout and a gorgeous home for a variety of wildlife.
It's truly debatable whether or not Sunday hunting would result in more people buying hunting licenses, but it would offer more days during the seasons. More days means more hours worked for the already strapped Wildlife Conservation Officers, who are undermanned for an agency that hasn't been allowed to increase the cost of a hunting license for more than 10 years. Can you imagine if Big Oil wasn't allowed to raise gasoline prices over the last 10 years?
Sunday isn't just a perceived day of rest for humans, but a day of respite for heavily hunted big game species such as deer, bear and turkeys.
Farmers and private landowners both have property that borders state game lands. Sunday has been a day when these landowners could enjoy their property in relative quiet during hunting seasons. Taking a leisurely Sunday streamside picnic at a favorite spot on your own land could become life threatening if it's too close to state game lands and hunting is allowed.
Even more to the point, landowners will have to be explicit in what days they will allow hunting on their properties, leading to more confusion, potential law violations and conflicts, and there aren't enough WCOs or volunteer deputies around to enforce the violations.
As far as I'm concerned, the game commission controls the state game lands, and if a Sunday hunting ban is removed, we have no choice. Hikers and birdwatchers and other outdoor recreation enthusiasts will need to stay away from game lands. Whether or not the state parks and state forests go lock step in allowing Sunday hunting is another issue altogether.
I do believe the vast majority of landowners in the state will not allow Sunday hunting, however, and that can create a legal issue that may end up closing a lot of privately held land from public hunting.
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/07/27 19:35:21
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RE: Erie paper article on SH
2011/07/27 19:36:12
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RE: Erie paper article on SH
2011/07/27 19:44:29
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RE: Erie paper article on SH
2011/07/27 19:48:00
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dpms
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RE: Erie paper article on SH
2011/07/27 20:40:31
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On Gary Blockus. Nice guy. Met him and we chatted at a BOC in Harrisburg during the crossbow debates. In this article he used very dangerous language and I sent him my thoughts as soon as this came out several weeks ago. This comment.
"I just can't picture myself walking the trails of Beltzville State Park or Ricketts Glen State Park while rifles are being fired or hunters in tree stands are yelling at me as I pedal by on my mountain bike."
Really unfortunate coming from someone that supports hunting. Plays into the stereotypes that exist about hunters among some of the non-hunting public and is typical of the filth the antis spread.
Hunting is one of the safest recreational sports that exist. Mountian bike riding and hiking are way more dangerous than hunting or those around hunters. Referring to hunters as "yelling" at hikers or mountian bikers is absurd and reprehensible coming from him. These comments in his piece have done harm to hunting. He should know better and I relayed that to him.
My rifle is a black rifle
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Erie paper article on SH
2011/07/27 20:41:19
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I did find this = The ripple effect of this spending can have a major impact on a rural town or county. Comprehensive research from the National Shooting Sports Foundation shows that allowing hunting on Sundays in Pennsylvania would generate a total annual economic impact estimated at $764 million and create more than 8,000 jobs I found no link nor any explaination of just where and what jobs this extra money is going to come from.. you would thing it would be somehwere for folks to see what they are speculating may happen... as a result of all this comprehensive research.. so me the research !!! looking into a crystal ball to try to get the law changed is all I see happening ....plus it can be "spun" as a reasson for a person to believe the bull and support Sunday hunting... Come on NSSF. I thought you were better than this.. show be the sources.. not just some wild numbers/claims .... gasoline ... now that's funny... millions because the guy drives to his hunting spot 5 miles away from his camp or motel after a Saturday hunt to hunt Sunday morning and return to camp or motel Sunday after the hunt.. WOW 10 whole miles ... BIG BUCKS there...
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Erie paper article on SH
2011/07/27 20:53:22
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Referring to hunters as "yelling" at hikers or mountian bikers is absurd and reprehensible coming from him. These comments in his piece have done harm to hunting. He should know better and I relayed that to him.
Obviously he has read some message boards topics and read what archery hunters have said about FELLOW HUNTERS even coming into THEIR area while they were on stand .. just image if it were a hiker, biker, or bird watcher entering that hallow ground ..... I can 100% see an archer yelling at a hiker, bird watcher, or biker who happens into THEIR area while they are there....  BTW == did you get a reply ????
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/07/27 20:54:10
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dpms
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RE: Erie paper article on SH
2011/07/27 21:03:45
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ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
Obviously he has read some message boards topics and read what archery hunters have said about FELLOW HUNTERS even coming into THEIR area while they were on stand .. just image if it were a hiker, biker, or bird watcher entering that hallow ground .....
I can 100% see an archer yelling at a hiker, bird watcher, or biker who happens into THEIR area while they are there.... I am sure it happens but I would never play it up to get a point across. I truly believe that most of "us" are good people and respectful of others. Bad apples in every bunch and those apples should not taint the good ones. BTW == did you get a reply ????
Nope. Must not be important enough.  I do some folks that also sent him similar comments as mine and did get responses. They know him on a personal level. I just just had a brief conservation with him but a reply would have been appreciated.
My rifle is a black rifle
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RE: Erie paper article on SH
2011/07/27 21:22:40
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Erie paper article on SH
2011/07/27 22:12:47
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Come out of your cave Dr Trout ! Many gallons of gasoline used at many of my friends and family's places during hunting season. First is several trucks that get poor mileage. Then you have the use of UTV's and ATV's. Gas is also used to mow and care for food plots. Fuel for the lawn mower and the tractor to get wood. You have to fuel the saws and also the log splitter. And NONE of that has a thing to do with being able to hunt on Sunday.. nice try though Many of the camps around here come from Pittsburgh area. and almost all of them come up for week-ends .... very few make it a one day trip...I doubt many would think it was worth the expenses to come for just a one day stay.. let alone the 4 hours of driving time...many also complained about not being able to come as often now that gas is so high... sorry I'm just not buying millions of dollars just because they could hunt on a Sunday .. will guys come up for a Saturday hunt as usual and stay and hunt Sunday CERTAINLY... but that by itself is not going to add millions....
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/07/27 22:17:37
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bingsbaits
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RE: Erie paper article on SH
2011/07/27 22:23:35
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Straight from the PGC's resolution Doc.. You wouldn't disagree with their numbers now would you... “Whereas, hunting license sales and their associated federal matching funds are the primary revenue source for the Pennsylvania Game Commission in carrying out its mission, including maintaining 1.5 million acres of state game lands and acquisition of additional public lands, research and management of wildlife and providing information and education to the public, and “Whereas, Sunday hunting will provide substantial economic benefits to rural areas and businesses by increasing money spent by hunters on lodging, food, gas and other incidental items, and “Whereas, Sunday hunting is expected to generate $629 million in additional spending and create 5,300 new jobs, resulting in $18 million in additional sales and income tax, and “Whereas, the mission of the Pennsylvania Game Commission is to manage wildlife and its habitat for current and future generations, and “Whereas, Sunday hunting, which is currently permitted to control a growing population of coyotes, will provide the biologists of the Pennsylvania Game Commission a new tool to manage wildlife populations, and “Whereas, the forty-three states that currently permit Sunday hunting have not experienced any discernable impact on the health or vibrancy of game populations.
post edited by bingsbaits - 2011/07/27 22:24:16
"There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Erie paper article on SH
2011/07/27 22:41:07
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So now we have two totally different figures for income and jobs created.... and yes I would dis-agree with those figures too... where's the list of jobs and where the money is coming from... can't find one anywhwere.. they are just throwing out figures but not supporting FACTS.... especially the lodging.. week-ends at camp are week-ends at camp.. no extra income from lodging there.. so it would have to be hotels, motels, rentals... they stay Saturday after the hunt,,, hunt Sunday and go home.. where's the extra lodging for Sunday .. do you really think that many are going to stay Sunday night .. Remember one of the things thrown out there is for the guy that works Mon-Fri and wants to hunt Sat and Sun.. they are not staying anywhere Sunday after the hunt.. they have to be at work Monday morning... well I'm not arguing this topic any more... when I see a list of GOOD intelligent sources for all these extra dollars then I may have some more thoughts.. plus I have no idea other than WCOs where extra jobs are going to be needed just for adding one day to hunt... what ??? an employer is going to go out and hire an extra worker just to work on Sundays for all the hunters coming in during the day rather than in the woods hunting.. now that one is hilarious !!!!! LAST ONE = What about all that extra money from non-residents because they can now hunt on Sundays ...... check this out === One of the biggest arguments about Sunday hunting and the economic factor is about the loss of non-resident hunters. It is believed that in states that ban Sunday hunting, non-resident hunters will not invest in a license because they cannot hunt Sundays. If this were true, wouldn’t there be some clear evidence of that? Let’s see if there is.
Below are listed five of the states that prohibit Sunday hunting. That is followed by the percentage of total hunting licenses for that state that belonged to non-resident hunters. One of the reasons I didn’t list all of the states is that no data was available because there was so few non-resident licenses sold it didn’t make the survey.
No Sunday Hunting States
Pennsylvania – 14%
Virginia – 21%
North Carolina – 9%
West Virginia – 20%
Maine – 25%
Below are the states that do allow for Sunday hunting followed by the percentage of non-resident hunting licenses.
Sunday Hunting States
Texas – 8%
New York – 11%
Wisconsin – 11%
New Hampshire – 33%
Vermont – 26%
Ohio – 8%
Georgia – 15%
Tennessee – 21%
Kentucky – 16%
South Carolina – 15%
Does this give us any clear indication of how non-resident license sales can be affected by Sunday hunting? Of these states listed, the average percentage of non-resident licenses is 16.9%. Three of the five states listed for no Sunday hunting are clearly above the average. Seven of the ten others are at or below the average. Is this refuting the theory that states with no Sunday hunting are losing valuable revenue from non-residents?
New York abuts Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Connecticut and Massachusetts, all states banning Sunday hunting, yet only 11% of all licenses sold there are to non-residents. I should also point out that New York borders Ontario, Canada that has very limited Sunday hunting.
Ohio offers Sunday hunting. They are bordered by Pennsylvania and West Virginia and only show an 8% accounting of non-resident licenses.
To throw confusion into this equation, here sits New Hampshire and Vermont with 33% and 26% respectively. Massachusetts and Connecticut sit to the south of them and Maine to the east and they clearly sell more out of state licenses but wait. Maine doesn’t have Sunday hunting yet they have non-resident license sales that make up 25% of total sales.
Other states that offer Sunday hunting that border states that do, show no significant gains from non-resident license sales. Georgia, Tennessee and Kentucky are such states but only have 15%, 21% and 16% non-resident sales.
I don’t think there is anything here that can clearly show one way or the other that Sunday hunting does or does not have an affect.
If we look at other trends like how many hunting days non-residents spend in each state, will this tell us something? Below you’ll find a list of the same non-Sunday states and Sunday states followed by the average number of days a non-resident hunter takes to the woods.
No Sunday Hunting States
Pennsylvania – 6.98 days
Virginia – 5.88 days
North Carolina – 7.44 days
West Virginia – 9.83 days
Maine – 8.16 days
Sunday Hunting States.
Texas – 6.55 days
New York – 4.93 days
Wisconsin – 9.08 days
New Hampshire – 12.27 days
Vermont – 7.43 days
Ohio – 7.42 days
Georgia – 10.23 days
Tennessee – 8.24 days
Kentucky – 4.12 days
South Carolina – 5.86 days
Does this show us anything definitive? I don’t think so but something interesting shows up. Look at New Hampshire. The average number of days non-resident hunters take to the woods is 12.27 days. Why? Are there so many hunters in Maine and Massachusetts who live close enough to commute to their hunting grounds? Perhaps but next door in Vermont, it drops way off to 7.43 days. Maybe this is all in the numbers and population density has to be factored in.
As I said from the onset, I’m not sure I am going to prove anything but I will show you some interesting things that will stir conversation and probably create more questions than get answered.
I do want to share some other very interesting facts and figures with you. The title of this story asks, how much is a hunter worth? Let’s find out. It might surprise you.
One thing that we should all keep in mind in the economic debate is whether a state with Sunday hunting is making more money than the neighboring state without the Sunday hunt. For the most part there is a given number of hunters in America. It fluctuates up and down as the result of certain factors like bad weather, chronic wasting disease outbreaks and big jumps in license fees to name a few.
What is clear is there is not an increase of new hunters entering the marketplace each year. States are beginning programs in efforts to retain hunters and recruit new ones. These programs haven’t been around long enough to know if they will work. At best the total number of hunters is holding steady and in many states the number of days in the woods by each hunter is going up. This is a good sign.
When one state opts to go after more hunters who are not new recruits, they end up just borrowing the hunter for a period of time. One state reaps and the other loses.
In conclusion I would like to say that although I can’t tell you that Sunday hunting makes that much of a difference I can tell you that you are an extremely valuable asset to our economy.
I think there are just too many variables in trying to determine how Sunday hunting effects us economically. It is too difficult a task - one that I am not up to. I think demographics, costs of licenses, availability of guides, lodging and restaurant prices, quality and availability of game and many, many more come into play. There are just some places hunters want to go to and hunt where many of these factors don’t become a factor.
Should states battling the Sunday hunting issue do so because of economic reasons? That is up to the individual states but these numbers are pretty enticing. I don’t think luring more hunters to your state can be achieved simply by offering Sunday hunting. There’s much more to it and I’ll leave that for another story.
Tom Remington
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/07/27 23:00:53
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RE: Erie paper article on SH
2011/07/27 23:22:58
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RE: Erie paper article on SH
2011/07/27 23:30:07
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The figures used are estimated, you know like the PGC estimates deer kill. You don't possibly think that they can give you a accurate number before it actually goes into law. Seems like many large hunting organizations agree that it will generate millions including the PGC. As far as the article by Tom Remington, just a nobody editor with an opinion and no HP to back it up.
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