RSB
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RE: 2F Bonus tags ???
2011/08/11 19:59:49
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ORIGINAL: treesparrow
I am a deer hunter through and through. If I am able I take the whole rifle season off to hunt I do. Seasons past I have hunted out of a tent in Cameron Co. I am also a Forester and have land holdings in Pa.I manage for timber production, however I also hunt them. Most are open to hunting. Some are posted because I became tired of arguing with hunters.
I saw Dr. Alt give his presentation in Franklin and thought the new policies were long overdue. I hunted the big woods for the experience of being able to stretch my legs and feel unrestricted. No posters and very few hunters. This was back in the 70's and 80's. At that time the older hunters talked of the good old days when they saw 100's of deer a day and could wait on a nice buck. The steep hills had deer trails that were "pounded in so deep that it made easy walking". Well in the 70's and 80's the timber was coming to pole size and bigger there was no underbrush it was browsed clean. I spent time in the winter months hiking and backpack camping and observing the deer. What a sad situation by spring they were gaunt and starving. I doubt there is anyone that is alive today that could tell us what a healthy understory should look like in those forests. It would take decades for the flora to regain its rightful self with very low deer presure.
I am a deer hunter and I know you are all deer hunters. HYowever we are not the only consumers of recreation and commerce in the outdoors. Dr. Alt talked of bringing the deer population back into balance with the habitat. He also said that there would be some problems with implimenting this new proposal.
Had we not brought the deer herd down and tried to improve the damaged habitat how would we be seen by the general public. Our policies and actions are what we as hunters are going to be judged by. I have spent most of my life in contact with foresters and wildlife biologists and can recall discussions in the late 60's and 70's on the stressed habitat. It is an issue that has never been adressed properly untill Dr. Alt and some responsible others steped up.
Without question other organizations were concerned with our out of ballance habitat. You have all experienced the overpopulated bluegills in a lake and understand there are to many for the habitat. It does not matter how big your aquarium is if you only put a little food in you can perhaps support two big fish or a hoard of stunted sickly ones. Deer are no different it allways comes down to food. The whitetail is not a mature forest inhabitant. Early succesion forest is the whitetails domain. Hence its population explosion years ago.
You hit the bull’s eye right on the mark with your comments.  R.S. Bodenhorn
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ridgehunter
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RE: 2F Bonus tags ???
2011/08/11 20:58:41
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Alt was a whackjob. Sure, something had to be done about the high deer population and damaged habitat in the northern big woods but he/they chose to implement a one size fits all management plan that has devastated the herd in many areas across the state that could've supported more deer. That's why many landowners have been posting their property.............only to protect the deer that they have.
post edited by ridgehunter - 2011/08/11 21:01:01
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World Famous
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RE: 2F Bonus tags ???
2011/08/11 22:16:31
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Thanks for the numbers,RSB. It seemed like last year most units were sold out ,except for the high allocation ones,and this year there was only about 1/3 of them sold out. I was incorrect on the post and thanks for the comparision of the 2 years...WF
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RSB
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RE: 2F Bonus tags ???
2011/08/11 22:35:13
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ORIGINAL: World Famous
Thanks for the numbers,RSB. It seemed like last year most units were sold out ,except for the high allocation ones,and this year there was only about 1/3 of them sold out. I was incorrect on the post and thanks for the comparision of the 2 years...WF
No apology needed. It is very easy to for people to have incorrect perceptions about things when trying to just remember things from one year to another, that is why I keep records on just about everything. That way I can look up the data and see what is real and what is simply a perception. Every fall I do survey routes on three different routes that are the same every year. Every year I believe I am seeing fewer deer or turkeys or more grouse or fewer or more of some other species. Then when I actually pull up the data, from past years, I frequently discover that my perceptions were totally off of what reality is. It seems people always remember the past as being better than the present even though real historic data often proves the past was not as great as our memories make it seem. R.S. Bodenhorn
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RSB
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RE: 2F Bonus tags ???
2011/08/11 22:39:04
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ORIGINAL: ridgehunter
Alt was a whackjob. Sure, something had to be done about the high deer population and damaged habitat in the northern big woods but he/they chose to implement a one size fits all management plan that has devastated the herd in many areas across the state that could've supported more deer. That's why many landowners have been posting their property.............only to protect the deer that they have.
That is all simply your opinion. Those who are professionals in the field of resource management don’t share you opinion though because they work more from scientific facts then simply from opinions. R.S. Bodenhorn
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treesparrow
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RE: 2F Bonus tags ???
2011/08/11 23:11:54
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I agree completely S-10 and Bings. It makes me sick to see the waste in some of the old growth stands. It is kind of a spiritual feeling to walk through old growth. Even on my small timber stands I like to try to bring a section to old growth status.Maybe only a few acres out of 50. With my limited lifespan I may not get to far and then my kids will probably scalp it. Most stands as they pass full maturity begin to have some kind of problems.
Bings, where you are cutting it may be a cut being done to prepare for a clearcut.
I have felt for a long time that the clearcuts need to be much larger in the big woods. However it is not politically acceptable. Hunters are a special interest group and as S-10 says we are not the only one. The tree hugger special interest crowd has a head start on influencing the Forestry in this state. They have managed to have a large segment of our forests set aside for no cut, and they influence the forestry on the rest. They cost us big bucks. I would love to see a study done on the money waisted on litigation and extra manhours spent defending sound forestry practice.
However no matter how you look at it we are stuck with a deer management delema in a forest that is far from ideal deer habitat. The habitat in those forests is not under the Game Commisions control. They can only attempt to balance the deer population to the habitat that is present.
The flora has peen impacted do to too large a deer herd and it will take time for species that have been eliminated to filter back in. I agree if you open the canopy you will get growth. However I opened some canopy in Elk County bordering National Forest and I watched a carpet of Oak saplings get mowed off by deer. They ate every one,and I got Birch, some White Pine, and Striped Maple regrowth. That was not the regrowth I was looking for.
When those saplings came up I had the only good browse in miles. That 50 acres of loosened canopy just wasn't enough. Had I loosened 1000 acres I would have overwhelmed the few deer in that area and would have seen some oak propagate.
What in the big woods situation we seem to all agree on is that the habitat isn't ideal for the Whitetail anymore.
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RE: 2F Bonus tags ???
2011/08/11 23:38:47
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It seems people always remember the past as being better than the present even though real historic data often proves the past was not as great as our memories make it seem. You can throw all the data into view you want. Bottom line is if the hunter is not happy with the game they are seeing they ain't coming back. Maybe some need to look for game in "unusual" places as Alt once said? Maybe one should travel deeper into the woods then they have in the past? Or maybe one needs to give up their hard earned money and hunt a privately managed lease ? This last decade is surely one to remember. Thanks for the memories...
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wayne c
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RE: 2F Bonus tags ???
2011/08/11 23:45:12
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Alt was a whackjob. Sure, something had to be done about the high deer population and damaged habitat in the northern big woods but he/they chose to implement a one size fits all management plan that has devastated the herd in many areas across the state that could've supported more deer. That's why many landowners have been posting their property.............only to protect the deer that they have. Lotta truth there. But Alt wasnt the driving force, he was just a front man. He left, but he didnt take the agenda with him. The agenda is alive and well, and there was and are alot bigger problems than Alt at play in the antideer agenda. As for 2f, they arent alone. Seems most units have far too many tags given recent history of allocations and herd sizes.
post edited by wayne c - 2011/08/11 23:46:25
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wayne c
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RE: 2F Bonus tags ???
2011/08/11 23:52:07
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"As you can see antlerless sales are moving better this year than last year. If we use your analogy we would then have to assume hunters aren’t as unhappy about the deer numbers," So slightly better rate of tag sales in 2F couldnt have ANYTHING to do with the mentored youth tag transfer that is just starting THIS YEAR? lol No. No common sense answer. Its all about the hunters showing support because they have all changed their minds about the pgc antideer campaign of course. lol. ]
post edited by wayne c - 2011/08/12 00:01:19
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RE: 2F Bonus tags ???
2011/08/12 00:19:14
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ORIGINAL: wayne c
"As you can see antlerless sales are moving better this year than last year. If we use your analogy we would then have to assume hunters aren’t as unhappy about the deer numbers,"
So slightly better rate of tag sales in 2F couldn't have ANYTHING to do with the mentored youth tag transfer that is just starting THIS YEAR? lol No. No common sense answer. Its all about the hunters showing support because they have all changed their minds about the pgc antideer campaign of course. lol.
]
I picked up an extra 2F doe tag this year with anticipation of taking out one of the young guns from the area. He just recently told me that he was not interested because it was too boring hunting deer. Just going to burn that tag I guess...
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Dr. Trout
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RE: 2F Bonus tags ???
2011/08/12 00:29:17
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FYI .... This is my first experience with selling hunting licenses and I am finding it so interesting... we sold 7 licenses TODAY ... so licenses have been selling daily since I started... I guess I always figured they were heavy up til doe tags then slacked off for the last minute guys for rifle.. but not so.. Also folks are excited about 2F tags remaining and are sending for tags.. many residents are telling us it is the first time in years they may get a tag and harvest a doe!!!! BTW .. I got my 2F tag in the mail today...
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/08/12 00:32:00
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bingsbaits
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RE: 2F Bonus tags ???
2011/08/12 07:12:31
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Those environuts cost us alot of money.
Took the NFS 2 years of court battles just to get the contracts on a salvage cut.
Wind blew down about 30 acres of timber and the enviros just wanted to let it rot.
I had to leave about 40-50 standing Cherry stubs(20-40') with the tops busted out of them for bathouses. Could have sold one of those stubs and built more bathouses than the bats could ever have used...
I see the ash is having a problem in the area I am in also. I see no signs of the Emerald Ash Borer but about half of the Ash are dying from the top down and have punky centers.
The PGC could do a much better job of managing their forests, a good healthy forest properly managed would benfit all including the deer.
"There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
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S-10
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RE: 2F Bonus tags ???
2011/08/12 07:35:09
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That's the whole fallicy of what we were told at the beginning of this mess. We were, and still are being told that as we get good regeneration the deer herd will be allowed to increase. At the same time both the State and National Forest are being managed in such a way that good regeneration will never happen. You need sunlight for any significant regeneration and that means opening up the forest canopy so the light can reach the forest floor. With current practices of small cuts and few or no clearcuts and with emphasis on Old Growth Forests we are doomed to the 5-7 dpsm that can survive in such a landscape. The state and national forest will never have the deer it should, the cities will still have many more deer than they should, the hunter numbers will continue to dwindle, and it will always be the greedy, misinformed, goon, thug, without a functioning brain cell, vocial minoritys fault. 
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treesparrow
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RE: 2F Bonus tags ???
2011/08/12 11:10:45
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What a predicament! That is why a good estimate of what the tree huger is costing the taxpayers could possibly turn the tide of general opinion. I do not think the general public realizes the cost incurred in our mismanaged forests. Wonder why we have State Parks closing? We pay to send our children through higher education in fields they pick and in many cases they can not exercise there ability because of politics. Look at the school systems and the enormous burdan of testing now going on. Some schools are now giving tests to see how the students will fair on other tests.Foresters that need to modify sound practice due to special interests with clout.
I used to get in confrontations with many people over timber cutting. I once had a very wonderful person sort of questioning how I could kill all those trees. Well we were standing right beside her garden which had a huge Red maple tree right beside it. I then asked her how many seedlings she had to kill every year in her garden. Toushay!!!! Another woman told me that god would not want any trees cut. I told her Jesus was a carpender he got his wood somewhere. the new certification (Green Wood) is just a smoke screen so the "want to do rights" can feel good with themselves. The fact that the state forests are certified is a joke. That courts are making cutting decisions is a joke.
I am sorry if some disagree but I feal the same with this situation of Whitetail Management. I'll bet very few in the Wildlife Management field are not hunters. If the timber in the big woods was all droped we do not have enough hunters to handle the whitetail explosion that would follow. It all comes down to habitat unless the habitat changes the big woods will remain poor deer habitat. They do a timber cut and fence out the deer, how natural and the way nature intended. i guess we as hunters will have to wait for natures fury to bring change. Think of a real wet season,ground soggy, trees easily uprooted, and another Hurricane Agnuss sweeping through Pa. Ah we would have some deer hunting then boys. And Bings and the boys would never get all the salvage cut.
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wayne c
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RE: 2F Bonus tags ???
2011/08/12 11:35:06
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" am sorry if some disagree but I feal the same with this situation of Whitetail Management. I'll bet very few in the Wildlife Management field are not hunters." Some hunt as an afterthought. That doesnt mean they have hunters best interests in mind. Some probably dont at all. But one thing is for sure, they better buy a license and say they are "hunters" or there most likely would be political probelems for them running GAME management. So claiming to be a "hunter" does not overshadow ones actions. Which in Pa are well documented to be nonhunter friendly. ' If the timber in the big woods was all droped we do not have enough hunters to handle the whitetail explosion that would follow." Of course "all dropped" would be extreme. Under any normal timbering conditions that could reasonably be expected, hunters can easily handle the population given proper time + allocations, even with increases in cutting. Though its probably not gonna happen, its undeniable some of the "big woods" areas deer would definately benefit by more cutting. There are alot more factors than deer effecting the forests. Another thing, the rest of the state is being reduced and in many areas its not the big woods or poor habitat, just 20 quintillion tags in play. There are also goals of biodiversity here that have been swept under the rug. Goals where the deer must be ratcheted back even further than the level to simply promote reasonable timber regeneration. I think alot of hunters have a problem with that, and rightly so. ITs nothing short of environmental extremism, similar to how those spoken of previously protest the cutting in some areas etc, only more involved and significantly higher level.
post edited by wayne c - 2011/08/12 11:42:17
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DarDys
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RE: 2F Bonus tags ???
2011/08/12 13:37:43
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ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
FYI ....
This is my first experience with selling hunting licenses and I am finding it so interesting... we sold 7 licenses TODAY ... so licenses have been selling daily since I started... I guess I always figured they were heavy up til doe tags then slacked off for the last minute guys for rifle.. but not so..
Doc, Did you ask any of those people of they were going deer hunting? They just might not be. Keep in mind that according to the Deer Audit, somewhere between 20% and 25% (I can never keep it straight) still buy hunting licenses but no longer hunt deer. That would be one out of five hunters in the case of 20% and one out of every four in the case of 25%. Perhaps they were getting a license in preparation for the quickly upcoming early goose season or dove season and have no intention of huntng deer at all.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: 2F Bonus tags ???
2011/08/12 20:50:36
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Dars... I never hunted waterfowl in Pa so not sure what licenses are needed.. I know in scrolling thru the choices for a regular hunting license there is a migratory bird one but so far have only sold about 6-7 of those... Have sold NO extra gobbler tags, but it might be early for that one Today was one adult regular, archery and a bear tag.. and a guy bought a junior his bobcat and fisher tags... Interesting enough, many of the folks buying tags and I talk for a few minutes... as I have been saying the guys complaining and the guys "enjoying it" are about even.. one thing I have notice is it appears to be the younger under 40 crowd that is doing 90% of the complaining.. also have had several come in for the pink envelope to send for an extra 2F tag.. I did get a guy REALLY PEEVED yesterday..  He bought his adult license and mentioned he was sending for a doe tag so no one else would get it.. the save a deer idea... I calmly mentioned that I felt he was wasting his money because the PGC figures there will be guys who buy tags and have no plans to use them but they still would like X number of antlerless killed every year so they just add enough tags to "cover" for those buying but not using.. He said "REALLY" I said "YEP.. so it's like you are giving them a donation, buying a tag and not taking a deer.." That's when he got mad and said the heck with it then.. they are not getting more of my money for nothing.. Most of the guys are saying they are seeing some nice buck this year, lots of apples for food, and lots of fawns, BUT also many adult females with NO fawns.. I tell them that's what I am seeing too.. and especially the NO FAWNS.. of the 5 I feed I have only seen one with twins.. I have 3 coming into the large pasture every night and none have fawns.. 1 comes out in the small pasture and she has the twins.. and one that I am pretty sure was a fawn last year is in the back yard every moring eating what is left of the blackberries...
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Dr. Trout
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RE: 2F Bonus tags ???
2011/08/13 20:14:47
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Saturday sales == one hunting license with no extras and three people wanting doe apps and pink envelopes for 2F...
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DanesDad
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RE: 2F Bonus tags ???
2011/08/25 14:14:42
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wayne c
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RE: 2F Bonus tags ???
2011/08/25 14:38:09
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Saturday sales == one hunting license with no extras and three people wanting doe apps and pink envelopes for 2F... Whats your point doc. I have bought antlerless tags every single year, and intentionally havent used one in many years. Same with some of my family members and friends as well. 
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eyesandgillz
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RE: 2F Bonus tags ???
2011/08/25 14:57:49
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ORIGINAL: wayne c
Saturday sales == one hunting license with no extras and three people wanting doe apps and pink envelopes for 2F...
Whats your point doc. I have bought antlerless tags every single year, and intentionally havent used one in many years.
Same with some of my family members and friends as well.
And you wonder why allocations stay high? hmmmmm
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wayne c
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RE: 2F Bonus tags ???
2011/08/25 15:14:12
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No. I dont "wonder" anything. I know why they stay high. And ive posted about "the agenda" many times. But despite my incredible influence on keeping the allocation high by daring to buy a tag i have no intention of using....  the herd reduction is well documented, and in my unit even more since stabization became the goal. That tells anyone rational that the allocation is too high whether I or anyone else has a tag we dont intend to use or not. Btw, for the record, the reason i buy them is so i can be in the woods with a rifle while hunting with others after Ive tagged out on my buck in archery. Thats mainly so i can shoot a coyote if seen while driving or walking between stands etc. usually with youth hunters of our group. I have shot 3 of them in recent years. And other members of my hunting party have shot coyotes as well. Another thing is feral dogs which i had run into in a bad way twice in all my years of hunting and one of them i had not choice but to put one of them down. As for the tags, would be kinda stupid of me to buy them just so others dont get them, when our allocation is so flipping high here, that they usually lately come a little shy of all selling out anyway, so i wouldnt be preventing anyone from getting anything. As for 2f, id imagine that strategy might often be a bit more successful there seeing as the allocation there is MUCH lower.
post edited by wayne c - 2011/08/25 15:29:13
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RE: 2F Bonus tags ???
2011/08/25 16:18:26
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Just being curious . Say one buys several doe tags and doesn't use them but sends in a report that they did. Would this have any influence on how many tags would be issued for the following year? Would a higher kill number mean more or less tags for the following year?
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wayne c
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RE: 2F Bonus tags ???
2011/08/25 16:35:30
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That would not be a wise thing to do. And thats a fact. It would have the opposite effect of the desired. I know you hear that talked about alot, and the reason those that "know" whom are usually pgc types dont set the record straight when many give out total misinformation on that, is because they feel that if people are gonna cheat, may as well let them cheat themselves, as opposed to the alternative... Turning in unused doe tags as harvests shows a higher ratio of harvested doe per tag. That would be one factor that would make it appear as if the herd were growing. They also look at the buck harvest. Buck harvests increasing (all else being equal without "changes" to seasons etc of course) over a period of years also show an increasing herd trend. That will equate to more tags being issued or them seeking other added opportunities. The only way to "cheat" the system would be to NOT turn in any buck harvests or doe harvests and not let the legally tagged animal sit around where they are checked by pgc wcos...such as meat processors etc, and then being added into the "reporting noncompliance percentage". Though i do not suggest others do this, and certainly wouldnt do so myself. Thought i would try to clear it up some, as this is something i see talked about often out and about and also on message boards.
post edited by wayne c - 2011/08/25 16:47:12
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dpms
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RE: 2F Bonus tags ???
2011/08/25 19:59:51
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ORIGINAL: wayne c
Btw, for the record, the reason i buy them is so i can be in the woods with a rifle while hunting with others after Ive tagged out on my buck in archery. Thats mainly so i can shoot a coyote if seen while driving or walking between stands etc. usually with youth hunters of our group. I have shot 3 of them in recent years. Gonna stink this year not being able to do that in 2A the first week of firearms if the buck tag is filled. I always carry my rifle for the same reason.
My rifle is a black rifle
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Dr. Trout
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wayne c
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RE: 2F Bonus tags ???
2011/08/25 21:59:51
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Gonna stink this year not being able to do that in 2A the first week of firearms if the buck tag is filled. I always carry my rifle for the same reason Good point. I wasnt one who really wanted the split season for this unit. Especially when it came with another bonus 10k tags on top of our already ridiculous allocation. Shoulda just left it as it was, and just knocked off about 10 or 15k tags from the 55k total.
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RE: 2F Bonus tags ???
2011/08/25 22:01:07
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RE: 2F Bonus tags ???
2011/08/25 22:04:11
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ORIGINAL: wayne c
Gonna stink this year not being able to do that in 2A the first week of firearms if the buck tag is filled. I always carry my rifle for the same reason
Good point. I wasnt one who really wanted the split season for this unit. Especially when it came with another bonus 10k tags on top of our already ridiculous allocation.
Shoulda just left it as it was, and just knocked off about 10 or 15k tags from the 55k total.
I was for a buck only for 2 weeks and a 3 day doe with no tag increase for 2F.Killing does with a rifle isn't really for me.
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tull66 
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RE: 2F Bonus tags ???
2011/08/25 23:07:44
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ORIGINAL: wayne c
Btw, for the record, the reason i buy them(doe tags) is so i can be in the woods with a rifle while hunting with others after Ive tagged out on my buck in archery. Thats mainly so i can shoot a coyote if seen while driving or walking between stands etc. usually with youth hunters of our group.
As for the tags, would be kinda stupid of me to buy them just so others dont get them, when our allocation is so flipping high here, that they usually lately come a little shy of all selling out anyway, so i wouldnt be preventing anyone from getting anything.
Wayne, buy a furtakers license instead. It allows you to be in the woods in deer season with a rifle.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The closer we adhere to the Holy Bible and the US Constitution (as it was written) the closer we get to the model that made America great. The great American experiment worked, human nature just got in the way.
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