ORIGINAL: RSB

ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout




retired guy
====


I checked my board to see if the last newspaper article I saw and posted back in January was still available ..
but it is not..

you may be able to search for something.. the guy that was killed was = Barry Groh

and I think the shooter was something Manilla ?????? not sure on that though...

The case has been resolved with the defendant pleading no contest. He has already been sentenced to a number of years in prison though it hadn’t been decided what type of prison when I last heard. I will see it I can find something on it and post it.
 
R.S. Bodenhorn

 
Here are a couple of the articles I could find. One that sets down some of the facts and then one on the sentencing of Manilla.
 
[color=#800080 size=3]http://fairlielaw.net/david-manilla-shooting-of-hunter-with-9-point-buck/
 
[color=#800080 size=3]http://www.timesherald.com/articles/2011/07/08/news/doc4e1704ee42993965072569.txt?viewmode=default
 
R.S. Bodenhorn

Thanks RSB-
  First -for pinching those guys- even though they probably never knew you and your son were there they were wrong in their approach to turkey hunting.
   Second- for the great news bout that 'hunter' and his court conviction.

I considered that to be stalking in the truest sense of the word and had they not pled guilty we would have found out if the court agreed with me on it being stalking. Though there perhaps isn’t a clear definition of stalking in the law it isn’t too hard to recognize it when you see it. It then becomes a matter of the WCO filing the charges and being able to articulate the facts that led to the charges before the court if they subject takes a hearing.

Did you cite both hunters for stalking that turkey or did you only cite the hunter who wasn't calling? What section of the code did you cite on the field citation? Has there ever been a case where a court has ruled that a hunter was guilty of stalking a turkey?As yet I have not been able to find any section of the code that defines stalking turkeys or that states stalking turkeys is illegal in both the spring and fall seasons.

Is it legal to use dogs to break up a flock in the fall and is it legal under any circumstance to harvest a turkey that a hunter hasn't called to within shooting range?

ORIGINAL: deerfly

I considered that to be stalking in the truest sense of the word and had they not pled guilty we would have found out if the court agreed with me on it being stalking. Though there perhaps isn’t a clear definition of stalking in the law it isn’t too hard to recognize it when you see it. It then becomes a matter of the WCO filing the charges and being able to articulate the facts that led to the charges before the court if they subject takes a hearing.

Did you cite both hunters for stalking that turkey or did you only cite the hunter who wasn't calling? What section of the code did you cite on the field citation? Has there ever been a case where a court has ruled that a hunter was guilty of stalking a turkey?As yet I have not been able to find any section of the code that defines stalking turkeys or that states stalking turkeys is illegal in both the spring and fall seasons.

Is it legal to use dogs to break up a flock in the fall and is it legal under any circumstance to harvest a turkey that a hunter hasn't called to within shooting range?

 
I cited them both and used the section for a violation of Regulations (2102) in Title 34 with reference to the regulations section you posted earlier. They were clearly stalking turkeys and hunting by a method other than calling even though they were also using a call. It was perhaps not a clear cut or classical case of hunting by other than calling but it was well outside the intent of what the regulation intended. I also cited them for failure to wear orange while moving since it was required during that time period. Often we need to make a judgment call based on the totality of the circumstances of what we observed, or discovered through investigation, then let the court make the decision if they elect to challenge the charges.
 
Yes dogs are legal in the fall. Hunters are generally afforded more leeway in their hunting styles in the fall season than they are in the spring season even though the regulations require hunting by calling in both seasons.
 
Stalking turkeys though is always both illegal and very dangerous. Not stalking turkeys is also one of the key points we bring forward in ALL hunter education classes.
 
Technically it is also illegal to ambush a turkey but with rifles as a legal firearm in the fall in most units we know a lot of it happens.
 
R.S. Bodenhorn

RSB can one follow turkey tracks in the snow ? Would you consider this stalking ?

     Thanks for that RSB- even though I'm not a PA guy a reasonable common sense application of any law is the way it is supposed to be interpreted and addresed wherever. Especially considering original intent.
        Its all this 'fine lining' that gets in the way of that and as  L/E knows leads to lousy 'case law' decisions that forever can change the way a law is interpreted.
       Surprised you guys can hunt Turkey with a rifle- guess its cause ya have the luxory of some big country. We still hafta use the shotgun in Fall too.
       If we had a rifle ya wouldnt hafta bust the flock and callem back in. Would still suggest it though as it is a real exciting and memorable way to harvest a bird..It also works the vast majority of time.

ORIGINAL: deerfly

Personally I think it is pathetic and irresponsible for the PGC to condone and support methods for turkey hunting that are clearly illegal, while at the same time citing hunters for stalking when stalking is not defined in the code and is not specifically referenced in the code.

 
Personally, your continued attacking of anything PGC is what is pathetic.  The agenda is as clear now as it was when you began your crusade here.

I do hope you realize that probably 80% of today's hunter have never even looked at the code book .. heck many do not even read the digest ..

Where did you get the 80% figure? Ignorance of the law is no excuse and just reading the Digest will give hunters the impression that certain methods are legal when in fact they are clearly illegal and the fact that the PGC and WCOs chose not to enforce the law does not change the fact that the hunters are violating the law and could be subject to prosecution if a WCO decides for any reason to enforce the letter of the law like RSB did in his stalking case.

Does the Pennsylvania State Police have a message board?  Maybe Deerfly can get somewhere with his understanding of officer discretion with them........

ORIGINAL: retired guy

     Thanks for that RSB- even though I'm not a PA guy a reasonable common sense application of any law is the way it is supposed to be interpreted and addresed wherever. Especially considering original intent.
       Its all this 'fine lining' that gets in the way of that and as  L/E knows leads to lousy 'case law' decisions that forever can change the way a law is interpreted.
      Surprised you guys can hunt Turkey with a rifle- guess its cause ya have the luxory of some big country. We still hafta use the shotgun in Fall too.
      If we had a rifle ya wouldnt hafta bust the flock and callem back in. Would still suggest it though as it is a real exciting and memorable way to harvest a bird..It also works the vast majority of time.

If we had a rifle ya wouldnt hafta bust the flock and callem back in. Would still suggest it though as it is a real exciting and memorable way to harvest a bird..It also works the vast majority of time

Im my opinion turkey hunting is all about calling in a bird rather it be spring or fall. Shooting a feeding bird at long distance with a rifle does nothing for me. Its not the kill it's the hunt that I enjoy. RG, rifles are legal in certain areas of Pa while only shotguns in other areas during the fall.

ORIGINAL: dpms

ORIGINAL: deerfly

Personally I think it is pathetic and irresponsible for the PGC to condone and support methods for turkey hunting that are clearly illegal, while at the same time citing hunters for stalking when stalking is not defined in the code and is not specifically referenced in the code.

Personally, your continued attacking of anything PGC is what is pathetic.  The agenda is as clear now as it was when you began your crusade here.

Attacking and personal opinions are two different things. When one post just to criticize another member and has no input as far as topic goes, then they are guilty of such an attack. Care to add anything pertaining to topic DPMS ?

Right there with ya OA- Calling is the only thing that 'does it' for me too when it comes to Turkey.  Know a place where I could sit and waitem out and be pretty sure of seeing a bird late in the day- wont bother-would rather try to callem in and be skunked.

Maybe dpms can tell us how close we can get to a gobbling gobbler before we are guilty of stalking and whether it is legal to shoot a gobbler while returning to your car or camp during legal shooting hours in the spring season! Every turkey hunter is responsible for knowing those answers so unless dpms doesn't hunt turkeys he should know the answers.

In other words you have no idea what the correct answer to those questions might be and you just do what you want to do or what you think might be legal and hope you don't get caught. Personally, I believe too many hunters have the same attitude and just do what they want to do with little regard for the letter of the law.

No, I was not baiting!! I was just pointing out that you don't understand the regulations any better than any other hunter, but we are all expected to comply with those regs even though we have no idea which regs the PGC intends to enforce or how they intend to enforce them.