Trail cams on SGL.

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RSB
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RE: Trail cams on SGL. 2011/06/26 10:27:58 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Outdoor Adventures


ORIGINAL: RSB

Where did anyone say the cameras were legal? The fact is no one said that trail cameras are legal because they aren’t. Director Criswell said they are permitted, not that they are legal.
 
There was no problem or issue with trail cameras, even though we knew they were technically illegal, until someone made an issue of Game Commission personnel checking one out. Even though the personnel were well within their legal rights to have even removed the camera it became an issue with hunters. Now it might well become an issue that does get further regulated if enough of you people keep making mountains out of what should be only a molehill. At least it was a molehill as it relates to people using trail cameras on the game lands, though the accusations made against the food and cover employees might be a much larger issue before it is all said and done.
 
We not only don’t want to arrest hunters for something where there is no harm to the resource, the game lands or its users. But, this is exactly the way more restrictive regulations that do eventually lead to charges get their foothold.
 
What many of you seem to be missing, in your thinking, is that if there is anything added to the current regulation is most likely going to be more restrictive than what has been allowed with trail cameras in the past. The intent of the current regulation was basically to prevent people from leaving none hunting and other tangible property unrelated to hunting on the game lands, but where do you draw that line when some hunters are now complaining that we should be enforcing the law concerning hunters leaving trail cameras.
 
Sometimes the best thing is if people don’t push on some issues and just leaving the sleeping dog alone. It might already be too late for that though in this case.
R.S. Bodenhorn    



Does the same go with leaving a tree stand on game lands all year? Technically it's illegal but is it permitted as long as it's not an issue with someone ? I never did get an answer to using FOBs from you either.


 
The issue of tree stands being left on game lands has already been addressed and no you can’t leave them on game lands beyond two weeks after the end of the last deer season. That has been established in the regulations. Tree stands and portable blinds are the presently the only exceptions of tangible property that are legally permitted to be left on game lands provided they are within the legal time periods and seasons as listed below.
§ 135.41. State game lands.
 (a)  Restrictions limited. The following exceptions to §  135.2 (relating to unlawful actions) pertain to lands and waters designated as State game lands:
 
(c)    Additional prohibitions. In addition to the prohibitions contained in the act pertaining to State game lands and §  135.2, except with the written permission of the Director, it is unlawful to:
 
 (11)  Construct, place, maintain, occupy, use, leave or abandon any structures or other tangible property, except that portable hunting blinds or stands may be used subject to the following restrictions:
 
     (i)   Use may not cause damage to trees.
 
     (ii)   Except as provided in subparagraph (iii), overnight placement of portable hunting blinds or stands may not occur sooner than 2 weeks prior to the opening of the first deer season nor later than 2 weeks after the close of the last deer season within each wildlife management unit.
 
     (iii)   Overnight placement of portable hunting blinds is additionally permitted during the spring turkey season within each wildlife management unit.
 
 
As far as the use of FOBs where did you get the idea they might not be illegal. I don’t, at least on the surface, see anything that would indicate they would be illegal, but I didn’t research them either. They appear to meet the definition of fletching in the law. If you want to know the final decision on them you can call Law Enforcement in the Harrisburg Office.
 
R.S. Bodenhorn
 
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RSB
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RE: Trail cams on SGL. 2011/06/26 10:36:26 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: wayne c

There should be no "tighter" restrictions...Unless perhaps you factor in pgc spite against hunters of this state that do not support them with other matters...

How friggin simple would it be to have a regulation saying :

"Trail/game cameras are legal on gamelands as long as they do not damage the flipping tree and any found to be damaging to the tree through the use of screws, bolts (etc) is not permitted." (slightly amend as needed)

Gee thats just so flippin tough! Whats the matter? Afraid the birdwatchers from audubon and the conservancies pgc is buying their land off of these days will see them as unnecessary garbage lying around?

I swear, Pgc could muff up an anvil with a rubber mallet.


 
It seems to me it is the whining of those demanding a solution to a problem that previously didn’t and still doesn’t need to exist that are trying to muff up the anvil with the rubber mallet.
 
No one knows of anyon being arrested for leaving a trail camera on the game lands, so just where is the problem some of you think exists? So, just who is that is attacking the anvil with the rubber mallet here?
 
R.S. Bodenhorn
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Noplacelikehome
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RE: Trail cams on SGL. 2011/06/26 10:42:53 (permalink)
RSB, you have way more patience than I have. I am also a LEO. Some people have no commonsense. I tip my hat to you.
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Noplacelikehome
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RE: Trail cams on SGL. 2011/06/26 10:50:50 (permalink)
I know this is off the subject but I just got back from Erie yesterday. I traveled I 80 and I 79. I saw more deer killed on the side of the roads than I have ever seen before(many fawns). There is no doubt that the deer numbers have increased a lot. But guys STILL say there are no deer? Are these guys blind or just ignorant?
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S-10
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RE: Trail cams on SGL. 2011/06/26 11:09:31 (permalink)
There is no doubt that the deer numbers have increased a lot. But guys STILL say there are no deer? Are these guys blind or just ignorant?


They probably just know how to do the math. The buck kill has dropped from over 200,000 each of the two years preceding HR to approx 115,000 the last two years. The number of licenses necessary to kill a doe has increased as compared to the two years before HR. Both indicies prove that the herd has been greatly reduced. ( No one ever said there were NO deer) Do you have the number of deer killed along that same stretch of road in 2000 and 2001 on the same day to compare to the number you saw on you trip?
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wayne c
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RE: Trail cams on SGL. 2011/06/26 11:19:13 (permalink)
"It seems to me it is the whining of those demanding a solution to a problem that previously didn’t and still doesn’t need to exist that are trying to muff up the anvil with the rubber mallet."


As with most of what pgc does these days, it IS a problem. One with even more future ramifications. Id say what hunters can and cannot do on "our" lands... (BY THE LETTER OF THE LAW and not according to someones"discretion") Youve made it clear many times in the past what you think of hunters, and im not surprised you couldnt care less about their "rights" or priveledges on what is supposed to be our lands..

No one knows of anyone being arrested for leaving a trail camera on the game lands, so just where is the problem some of you think exists?


There should be ZERO possibility of that happening or having a cam removed which would be 'legal' for pgc employees to do. This is important because its a gamelands usage issue even more than its a camera useage issue.



"So, just who is that is attacking the anvil with the rubber mallet here?"


If they mirror your sentiments....then it will be the same agency that always does.
post edited by wayne c - 2011/06/26 11:23:33
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wayne c
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RE: Trail cams on SGL. 2011/06/26 11:32:06 (permalink)


"RSB, you have way more patience than I have. I am also a LEO. Some people have no commonsense. "

"Are these guys blind or just ignorant?"


With an attitude like that, and little patience, perhaps someone should strongly consider a change in employment.
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Noplacelikehome
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RE: Trail cams on SGL. 2011/06/26 14:39:09 (permalink)
Wayne, I will be retired in less than 7 years and 5 months. Then my job status will be full time hunter and fisherman at the ripe old age of 47. It was worth the move and aggrivation.
#68
Outdoor Adventures
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RE: Trail cams on SGL. 2011/06/26 16:33:56 (permalink)
As far as the use of FOBs where did you get the idea they might not be illegal. I don’t, at least on the surface, see anything that would indicate they would be illegal, but I didn’t research them either. They appear to meet the definition of fletching in the law.


OK Good deal thank you for the reply. FOBs were banned from many organized shoots when the first hit the market but now have been accepted. I wasn't sure what views the PGC had on them as their views seem to be different sometimes. Full speed ahead with the use of FOBs. I glue my nocks on with "orange" flavored glue, is that considered baiting while using them to hunt ? Just kidding !
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retired guy
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RE: Trail cams on SGL. 2011/06/27 20:56:36 (permalink)
Hey NOPLACE- good job- took me till 55 to get out and fish and hunt my life away-
Hey just a thought for you PA guys -has anyone ever done your stats for buck kill over the years with the drop in license sales factored in.
Easy to say harvest number are down but we all talk about the number of HUNTERS being down in most all states too.
No stone throwing here at all- just a bit perplexed.
   Ex- if the buck harvest is down from 200,000 to 115 thats a big deal- BUT if the number of hunters is down 20% ( guess) then 40,000 of that 200 is readily accounted for ( of course thas subject to the average hunter sucess ratios which would change the number- used just for example purposes) and the difference isnt as big as the comparative number appears to be. The 20% it is just an example but probably not too far off.
post edited by retired guy - 2011/06/27 21:02:46
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deerfly
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RE: Trail cams on SGL. 2011/06/27 21:22:13 (permalink)
Ex- if the buck harvest is down from 200,000 to 115 thats a big deal- BUT if the number of hunters is down 20% ( guess) then 40,000 of that 200 is readily accounted for ( of course thas subject to the average hunter sucess ratios which would change the number- used just for example purposes) and the difference isnt as big as the comparative number appears to be. The 20% it is just an example but probably not too far off.


That would make sense if the average of of the buck harvest increased significantly ,but that didn't happen. There is absolutely no evidence that would support the claim that the reduced buck harvest was due to the decrease in licensed hunters.
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spoonchucker
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RE: Trail cams on SGL. 2011/06/27 21:28:11 (permalink)
Maybe it's down because the deer read the camp rosters, and knew who to watch out for

Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

Step Up, or Step Aside


The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody.

GL
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RE: Trail cams on SGL. 2011/06/27 21:59:53 (permalink)
    Thanks for the return info Deer-this is NOT meant to be a part of the 'wars' thing in any way.
    Was just thinking that if the hunter sucess is 50% and the 'take' went from 10 deer to 8 deer and two of the 20 hunters had left the sport then the real difference in lower harvest sucses would be one -not two.  
    Guess  I was wrong. Just thought with  many less guys out there it would follow that at least some of the lower harvest might be due to less participation.   
If I got your point right you may be indicating that since there are less guys the remaining  may see more bucks each and have more opportunity and hunter harvest rate would therefore go up?  That would certainly be a benefit to a decent hunter.   
  I know it has helped me in places where others have opted out of that particular property. However the GROSS harvest went down on said properties even as my personal rate  went up.
   Two very different things and not ever to be confused.
  Please don't make this a 'just us in PA' thing cause its happening all over.  Not meant as an argument either- just trying to figure out whats really up with gross harvest numbers as the issue is similar in many States now.
I hunt several states a year and its getting to be a chore picking where to hunt with so many different points of view on harvest and hunter sucess rates being bantered about.
post edited by retired guy - 2011/06/28 01:02:11
#73
S-10
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RE: Trail cams on SGL. 2011/06/28 07:25:02 (permalink)
Hey just a thought for you PA guys -has anyone ever done your stats for buck kill over the years with the drop in license sales factored in.
Easy to say harvest number are down but we all talk about the number of HUNTERS being down in most all states too.
No stone throwing here at all- just a bit perplexed.


The PGC has tried to post numbers indicating that we are harvesting bucks at the same percent success rate as before HR. The problem they have is they have to go back to the mid eighties to find a low enough harvest to make their numbers work.


Their claim also counterdicts their research that shows we have always harvested approx the same percentage of the available bucks in any given year.

The joke is that they advertised, promoted, and made special laws in order to reduce the deer herd. Now that they have been succssful in reducing the herd they are getting grief from the public, including hunters for reducing it too far. Their response is to try to show they really haven't reduced it and everyone is seeing and killing just as many as before. Their problem is anying they try to claim along that line cannot be supported by the math and in some cases their own research counterdicts their claims.
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RE: Trail cams on SGL. 2011/06/28 08:21:09 (permalink)
success rate as before HR. The problem they have is they have to go back to the mid eighties to find a low enough harvest to make their numbers work.



Silly me... here I thought it was about the number of hunters being equal ... to get a comparitable succes rate not the harvest numbers
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wayne c
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RE: Trail cams on SGL. 2011/06/28 12:12:21 (permalink)
"Please don't make this a 'just us in PA' thing cause its happening all over."


Take any state in the nation. Significantly reduce their deer herd. And you will have further hunter decline than you would have otherwise. Common sense at this point, and not really even debatable as far as im concerned.

Thats why Pa is "special", because that is exactly what happened. Who is to say that Pa wouldnt have had a 23 year record high hunting license sales like Ohio did within last couple of years had this all not been going on? Or for that matter simply stable or slightly increasing license sales trend.


I think this thread has gone off topic a bit, and sorry for continuing, but dont like to see confusion of issues, whether on topic or not.
post edited by wayne c - 2011/06/28 12:15:04
#76
S-10
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RE: Trail cams on SGL. 2011/06/28 13:54:13 (permalink)
Silly me... here I thought it was about the number of hunters being equal ... to get a comparitable succes rate not the harvest numbers


That is silly if you think there is any comparison between the number of hunters in the mid eighties (which the PGC is using) and today.. They just had to go back that far to get a low enough buck harvest for comparison because the buck kill has steadly increased since then right up until the start of Herd Reduction.
post edited by S-10 - 2011/06/28 13:57:01
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RE: Trail cams on SGL. 2011/06/28 14:04:00 (permalink)
      Sometimes 'off topic' is OK as long as it gets done in an informative non hostile manner. A topic can get pretty much completed and guys continue with related stuff. Its a discussion board after all.
   I have come to the conclusion that in many parts of our Nation Hunting as we have known it is unfortunately on its way out in the next couple of generations.. Those of you who are fortunate enough to live in rural areas with the tradition still intact are the fortunate ones.
       One of the posters here made a similar reference with the City folks beginning to populate a part of S/W PA and seeing things beginning to change there-the future is  more of that as Urban populations move and grow and elect those who make our Game laws. A neighbor told me recently that he had' heard shots' in the woods last year and wanted to know 'what he should do about it'.
       I happen to be a rural guy living in an a VERY urban setting. My City is one of the most populated in the US by Square Mile but I still get my deer here- and I MUST keep it very low key and quiet or some will see to it that the hunting I enjoy is OVER. No conspiracy theory or weird anxiety issues here- just real life for many of us in the populated Urban areas.
      When I go to 'the country' to hunt the MOST important issue to me is NOT the gross harvest but the hunter sucess ratio. That singular point tells me weather or not a quality hunt will likely occur. Being an experienced  Deer guy I expect to beat the odds, but MUST know that they exist in a decent competitive field.
      Therefore the "wars" issues are pertinent to a point when considerations are made. YES the gross number of Deer is very important but the chances for the individual hunter are more so to me. Having Hunted N/W and S/E PA for a long time in the past I remember what it was and have certain sympathy with the apparent present conditions however that may or may not be a factor in a return hunt.
        Quality is NOT always quantity -although it was nice to see a couple of dozen deer each day in the past that does not always mean the difference in a quality experience.
       Despite the controversial  "wars' that happen here I truly believe that most of you guys are on the same page in that you all want to continue the Tradition and to varying degrees want the ' old days' back. That's a good thing but the common ground is gonna be the place that saves the tradition for you all- try like heck to find it.
       As a kid I could take my 30/30 and throw it in the car and simply go ' out for chucks' most anyplace I wanted. Folks would smile and wave and Farmers were happy to be rid of the Chucks. If a kid did that today around here he wouldn't be able to find a farm and if anybody saw him with  a rifle he would be promptly arrested for a weapons violation- with prompt and VERY visible police response to the "gun"- cause 'guns' are evil.  That is NOT an exaggeration.
      Hope that was done in a manner that doesn't get any feathers ruffled- it was meant as more of a compliment than a bash.
     BTW- leave L/E alone- they are stuck between a rock and a hard place on many issues having to enforce laws that are not commonly understood in a reasonable common sense manner. That can be difficult. They are  the thin line between those who want your way of life to be eliminated and controlling things afield in a manner the helps continue the tradition for us all.
post edited by retired guy - 2011/06/28 15:29:49
#78
deerfly
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RE: Trail cams on SGL. 2011/06/28 16:41:54 (permalink)
BTW- leave L/E alone- they are stuck between a rock and a hard place on many issues having to enforce laws that are not commonly understood in a reasonable common sense manner. That can be difficult. They are the thin line between those who want your way of life to be eliminated and controlling things afield in a manner the helps continue the tradition for us all.


Since quite a few WCOs actively support and defend the PGC's plan, there is no way they are going to get a pass from most hunters. Some go so far as to call hunters greedy,selfish and ignorant. With that kind of attitude they aren't going make many friends or gain support for the PGC.
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RE: Trail cams on SGL. 2011/06/28 17:09:58 (permalink)
    I understand the difficulties that occur when there are different perspectives on a 'plan' or any kind of effort with two or more dedicated 'sides'.
    But just for the sake of open mindedness- what if it had worked, in your opinion? Many seem to have  believed in it and some apparently still do.
      Only time will tell if change will be made for you guys but bear in mind when they are made- some will oppose them too. They will be just as dedicated to that opposition as some are now.
      I have been reading the Posts from PA for some time now and have certain opinions on it and have also read stuff bout the condition NOT found in these Posts. I stay away from it as much a possible because at best I will be a seasonal hunter there and NOT a resident facing it every season.
   The things I say are not PA specific- as much as possible- and I try and keep it for All states or areas so as not to get wrapped up in the 'wars'.

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S-10
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RE: Trail cams on SGL. 2011/06/28 17:38:05 (permalink)
Pennsylvania started deer herd reduction in 2001
Pennsylvania buck harvest was over 200,000 in 2000 and 2001 and was increasing each year b4 HR. It now averages approx 115,000.
Pennsylvania deer hunter numbers have dropped over twice as fast as hunters in general since 2001 per the WMI audit
Pennsylvania deer hunter numbers have dropped 10 times as fast as they have nationwide since 2001
We are losing hunters in all catagories while our neighbors to the west are gaining hunters in all catagories and attribute the gain to their deer herd.

Those facts are Pennsylvania specific

The only LEO's that get static are the few that try to B.S. us and the ones who consider anyone who questions the PGC' motives or claims as ignorant, idiots,goons, thugs, etc, etc.
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deerfly
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RE: Trail cams on SGL. 2011/06/28 18:16:00 (permalink)
But just for the sake of open mindedness- what if it had worked, in your opinion? Many seem to have  believed in it and some apparently still do.
    Only time will tell if change will be made for you guys but bear in mind when they are made- some will oppose them too. They will be just as dedicated to that opposition as some are now.


If forest regeneration had increased significantly and breeding rates and recruitment had also increased,I would have had to admit I was wrong. But breeding rates and recruitment did not increase and regeneration decreased in the majority of the WMUs and not one of the PGC supporters have admitted they were wrong or that the plan had failed to produce the predicted results.
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retired guy
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RE: Trail cams on SGL. 2011/06/28 18:22:44 (permalink)
I give up
  Fight it out no matter what- live for the fight- fight to live-  when its over wonder what the heck happened to what you were fighting about.
Take no prisoners- and if they are talking bout something else -DONT listen- turn it into the fight- fight for fights sake and then try and say you hunt to ENJOY IT.
No wonder the antis are winning, some just dont get it- theyd rather just fight.
    Reminds me of the kid in school who just walked around hitting other kids. No reason, just wanted to fight- even when nobody else was fighting.
   My sympathy all round some for those who have never and never will have a nice day and the rest for those who gotta listen to it.
post edited by retired guy - 2011/06/28 18:31:09
#83
S-10
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RE: Trail cams on SGL. 2011/06/28 18:37:29 (permalink)
No wonder the antis are winning, some just dont get it- theyd rather just fight.


I would suggest that the reason the antis are winning is because not enough hunters are taking an active stance in rebutting their false claims. Pointing out the false claims being made by government officials or in this case sometimes PGC officials is reasonable and necessary in a democratic society.
I don't want to have to sneak around hunting and hope no one sees me as you say you have to do. Many folks see the same thing starting to happen in Pa with our DCNR and PGC being pulled towards Eco-System management and non-consumtive use of wildlife to the detrement of hunters and hunting and will fight it anyway they can. We may lose in the end but perhaps gain a few more years of enjoyment.
post edited by S-10 - 2011/06/28 18:45:43
#84
Dr. Trout
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RE: Trail cams on SGL. 2011/06/28 18:42:10 (permalink)
Some go so far as to call hunters greedy,selfish and ignorant. With that kind of attitude they aren't going make many friends or gain support for the PGC.


and you are saying WHAT ??

there are no hunters who are greedy, selfish, and ignorant.... I know some
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Trail cams on SGL. 2011/06/28 18:51:03 (permalink)
Would you consider me greedy and selfish for this ===


I do not put a WELCOME HUNTERS sign at the beginning of my right of way so folks can come back here, park and walk 50 yards onto SGL#54 to hunt and harvest game.. instead they have to park at the last SGL parking lot and walk over a mile to get to the same area... ???


I do know that the long walk limits the hunters in the area and thus more game for me...

some would say that is being greedy and selfish.. I say it is being SMART
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/06/28 18:52:16
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RE: Trail cams on SGL. 2011/06/28 20:05:20 (permalink)
10-
My point bout the society changing is made by you folks again. There ARE less hunters and as the other folks increase in numbers WE become the distinct minority and our goals and objectives are therefore diminished in the normal course of evolving game management styles.
  Ya gotta remember that all the Hunters put together don't amount to the number of City folks who's only reference to a firearm is that of the street. When they hear a shot it is like that neighbor I mentioned- They want Official action to take place so they never hear another one.
   They truly believe that guns are bad as are those who use them for any purpose whatsoever. It is nowhere in their background to believe that killing of any kind is OK.
   I met lots of them with the majority of my career as a long haired, dirty looking, bearded, street corner narc. They are NOT bad people they simply come from a completly different lifestyle than you and I. They outnumber us too.
     Spoke to a biologist about the fishery in upstate NY recently and its economic impact on the general rural area therein. He responded as to how difficult it is to convey that message politically when one corner store in NYC turns over more annual money than the entire fishery.
     Think bout it as hunters fight amongst themselves over- policy. Divide and conquer.
  You know why all those Urban groups proposing new and increased Govt Subsidized programs and entitlements get so much---solidarity.
post edited by retired guy - 2011/06/28 20:17:39
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RE: Trail cams on SGL. 2011/06/28 20:42:47 (permalink)
Think bout it as hunters fight amongst themselves over- policy. Divide and conquer.
  You know why all those Urban groups proposing new and increased Govt Subsidized programs and entitlements get so much---solidarity.


So which group of PA hunters should surrender their principles and concede to the demands of the other side? Should those who question the PGC's reasons for reducing the herd simply agree with the other side that resulted in a loss of 200K deer hunters in just 8 years and a 40+% reduction in the buck harvest?


Urbanites ,farmers and foresters all want less deer and the only economically feasible way of achieving that goal is hunting. Therefore, hunting will continue to be the preferred method for controlling the herd for the foreseeable future and the demise of hunting is flawed prediction.
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wayne c
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RE: Trail cams on SGL. 2011/06/28 21:14:53 (permalink)
"I give up
Fight it out no matter what- live for the fight- fight to live- when its over wonder what the heck happened to what you were fighting about."


What are you talking about retired guy?? Those guys didnt say anything harsh to you, they simply replied explaining their positions and did so in a very cordial manner.


"Take no prisoners- and if they are talking bout something else -DONT listen- turn it into the fight- fight for fights sake and then try and say you hunt to ENJOY IT."


There will be fighting....and alot of it...among Pa hunters, legislators, pgc etc. as long as things stay the way they are or worse. Thats the reality of it. Not a good thing mind you... But it is what it is. Some things are WORTH fighting for.


No wonder the antis are winning, some just dont get it- theyd rather just fight.


Unless you are referring to the environmentalist that are winning by running the show (which arent outright antis), I disagree. There are no antis winning in this state. The hunter numbers are still relatively high and all polls taken on the subject show very strong support among the nonhunting public of pennsylvania for hunting.


"My sympathy all round some for those who have never and never will have a nice day"


Has nothing to do with having a nice day. I really doubt that to be the case for anyone posting on these boards either. I am currently posting on a topic that i feel strongly about and things i dont support. That has nothing at all to do with how my day went or is going, and ive actually had a GREAT day today. Im not even "angry" those minutes when im actually posting on the controverial topics either as far as that goes.

"and the rest for those who gotta listen to it."


Noone HAS TO listen to or read ANYTHING they dont want to. Yet you CHOOSE to take part in these type discussions regularly.
post edited by wayne c - 2011/06/28 21:33:42
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retired guy
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RE: Trail cams on SGL. 2011/06/28 21:26:42 (permalink)
Deer-
Great point-Its not bout giving up principal or knuckling under to somebodys  point of view. It about knowing when and how to make your  point so as to have its fullest impact.
      I'm vice chair of a Committe thats responsible for dispersement of several million a year in State and Federal Grants and CBDG funds.  Many are  'up for grabs' with various groups vieing for the dollars.
       When one group is picked to receive funding the others sit back and clap and nod their heads in agreement and then get to work polishing their presentation for whats next. Even though they just lost out.
      They know that a mature attitude rather than  in fighting and sniping will ultimately win the day. They realize that even though one thing may be lost or diverted from their personal list that the entirety of the condition is improved and they get to work on the next issue.  SOLIDARITY.
       Take a look at the Sunday Hunting issue in PA to see what I mean. There is a openly discussed 'conspiracy" behind each decision or move that's made most all in negative manners-- What a way to make friends- not just on this issue but for future needs as well. That Mason thing was hysterical. This Mason hunts Sundays btw.
       Anyone responding to that with a 'well look at what so and so did' is a perfect example.
    Some might say 'well OK' it will increase Hunter numbers in all likelyhood and give the kids a bigger chance to get involved so even if I dont like it personally I'll  say thanks to whoever gets the job done. Its a Hunting increase in a time of many decreases so I'll  hope for  stuff I like to come up too. Thank you for the attention and good intent Mr and Mrs Govt ---       NOPE-- conspiracy theories and stone throwing - -forget some of the support for 'next issue.'
   Wayne- The 'wars' mentality is prevalent here and was long before I arrived. Its a bit disturbing when the nice conversation suddenly takes on that kind of direction so very frequently and is overtly turned into a PA thing.
     Yes I know PA guys dominate here but some of us hunt around all over the place and like to have discourse with others as well. I understand it but dont have to like it. A bit of comin round seems to be in order on occasion just to keep the arrow straight. All in good fun and all in an adult manner as we are trying to get to the same place on different roads.
    You will NOT find me making personal attacks or indicating somebody is not honest about their issues at all -here or anywhere- we all have some 'different strokes' and have to respect them- till they step on somebody else.
  BTW - any of you guys fish the Salmon River? got a place up there and get up every other week year round to fish and hunt.
post edited by retired guy - 2011/06/28 21:50:49
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