ORIGINAL: deerfly

Actually that just further supports the point I was making about the benefits of having farmland or food plots mixed into the forestland habitat. I very clearly pointed out how important agricultural lands are toward feeding deer through the spring, summer and fall so the deer didn’t have to eat all of the browse they need through the winter before winter even starts.

There you go again with your continuos attempt to mislead and deceive. During the spring summer and fall deer do not rely on browse as their primary food source . During those seasons the primary food source is leaves , along with grasses and forbes. You have repeatedly claimed that because the fields would be snow covered during the winter that farmland contributed nothing to the OW carrying capacity.

Furthermore, your use of the buck harvest to support your claims is fatally flawed because the buck harvest has no relationship to the actual carrying capacity of the habitat because the high doe harvests have prevented the herd from even coming close to the MSY CC of the habitat in 5B , 5C and other WMUs with a lot of farm land. If the herd in those WMUs would be allowed to increase to the MSY CC, the OW herd in those units would be over 90 DPSM like at Valley Forge and Gettysburg.

 
The deer carrying capacity as it relates to future deer densities is your opinion but it isn’t shared by anyone in the resource management research and wildlife management profession.
 
Though deer eat leaves during the spring, summer and fall, in the forested habitats of the big woods it is often the new growth sprouts when they first sprout from the ground. The deer eat all those sprouts when they are inches tall and they are then gone forever.
 
A number of years ago (back in the 80s) I took a doubting reporter out to an area of mature forest in later May. The reporter took a picture of an area with thousands of desirable deer browse species that were sprouting from the ground and inches tall. I took that same reporter back there in late September or early October (I can’t remember exactly when) and offered him $50.00 for each seedling he could find within the frame of the picture he had taken of all those thousands back in May. He couldn’t find even one because the deer had eaten them all over the summer when each deer was eating 5-7 pounds of them every day.
 
Things have improved though since then and I wouldn’t make that same bet today.
 
R.S. Bodenhorn

The deer carrying capacity as it relates to future deer densities is your opinion but it isn’t shared by anyone in the resource management research and wildlife management profession.

Once again you are flat out wrong. The research done by none other than Susan Stout and David Declasta show that the MSY CC of PA forested habitat is over 40 DPSM. Furthermore the data from Valley Forge and Gettysburg shows the MSY CC of suburban habitat is over 90 DPSM.

Now here is my challenge to you. Can you cite any study or report that shows the MSy CC of the habitat in any area of PA is under 15 DPSM?

That's like saying I must like Hussein Obama because I continue to work

REALLY ??????

If hunters did not support the PGC why would they spend hard earned money to support them ????

Guys here are constantly saying that 200,000K stopped hunting (buying a license thus support)because they did not support the PGC's plans...

If I did not support the PGC I certainly would not give any of my money to them.

I totally disagree with the USP and would NEVER give them a penny to show support...

That's like saying I must like Hussein Obama because I continue to work

That's silly... it would be like saying you Dis-like Obama but continue to donate money to his re-election campaign... what you do to make a living has nothing to do with your thoughts and feeling about Obama unless he is your employer... giving him some of your money would say alot about your support one way or the other...

I'll bet guys who can't find a job are not giving him any of their money...

"there would be just as many deer in the area without the food plots... 2 acres in 1,200 is not going to "draw deer"... "
 
Maybe you need to come out of the hemlocks for a while Doc.
 
The one area that I gained permission to hunt last year has two food plots planted with beets.  Each one is about the size of a large livingroom -- about 25 feet by 25 feet.  They draw deer from the rest of the 400 acres of that farm as well from the other surrounding farm areas.  So in total they probably draw deer, not all at once of course, from about 1000 acres or more.  And there is plenty else for them to eat, they just prefer the beets.
 
At Raystown, at one time, there was a planted corn field (PGC, DCNR, Army Corps, I don't know who) that was about 75 acres.  At night in late October, it would draw enough deer that the flyovers estimated the population in that area as 90 deer per square mile, while the surrounding 10 square miles had a population of deer of less than 10 per square mile.  Now do you really think that 90 dpsm lived in that cornfield area and less than 10 dpsm lived all around it or do you think that perhaps that food plot drew deer from the surrounding area to it at night?
 
From how far away does your little corn pile draw deer?
 
Perhaps you could learn a little from Jimmy Buffet -- "Don't try to describe the ocean if you've never seen it."

I bet you don't support higher gas prices, but you still buy it. Why? Because it is the only game in town

If one wants to hunt, they are the only game in town. You must buy a license. Its not support per se, it is a requirement

After reading that I would say they are almost the exact same.. if one want to drive,etc -- gas is a requirement...
even the Amish realize that...and have to pay the higher prices:)]



If I did not like the price or quality of gas I would quit buying it... and quit driving... now that of course is about impossible ... so I have no REAL choice .. I have to get from point A to point B...

Hunting is an opinion ... no one has to hunt .... it is not a requirement for anything ...so if you choose to hunt and give the PGC money you are supporting them like it or not....

as for the donation to PGC. that's just about the silliest thing I have ever seen you post... I am 66 years old and have never ever heard a person say they donate by that method... most feel as I do they get my monetary support form license and sales for hunting gear.....

I'll use the extra $20 for gas to go hunting rather than just send extra to to them
I bought archery licenses for 4 years and did not hunt.. that's support... I have bought bear licenses and not bear hunted too...

From how far away does your little corn pile draw deer?

I have asked myself that question too....
the most I have ever seen there was 8 and it always the same ones each year.. day after day usually except for snow fall....

meanwhile there's a crop field 300 yards away and it has 14-25 deer in it every evening.. but none of them come to my feeding stations and never have ??????
I have also mentioned many times I have never seen an antlered deer at one either.
so my feeding must draw deer from about 100 yards away...??
That's part of MY PERSONNEL reason for not 100% believing the "feeding deer will draw deer and may help spread diseases talk....

Are you saying you honestly believe that "beet patch" is bringing deer from 10 miles away and at the same time saying there is good food sources in the entire area... sorry.. I'm not buying that... deer usually do not have 10 square mile travel cores.... I have always been told it's a mile or two AT BEST for the general rule...

BUT... that being said..

I am pleased to see you show (post)the exact reason why those fly-overs are not and were never a good idea to see how many deer are in an area... and I will look for to your support the next discussions about what they showed and how good they are... THANKS...

I'm also a little dissappointed you hunt an area that has "beet pathces" that draw deer from miles around... I have always thought you were more like the average Pa deer hunter than that... WRONG ... I knew from your posts your upland bird hunting experiences were not the "norm" but I did not picture you sitting over a beet patch waiting for deer.......

Hunting is an opinion ... no one has to hunt .... it is not a requirement for anything ...so if you choose to hunt and give the PGC money you are supporting them like it or not....

 
I agree Doc (other than opinion should be changed to option) and I have said the same thing a number of times on here.  Apparently it is just a tough pill to swallow for some.
 
I am dumbfounded that some are trying to draw a comparison between hunting and driving, gas, and even work.  The latter are all necessities of life (for the majority) and most would not survive without them.  These are not hobbies such as hunting, which the last time I checked, you can survive without.   
 
So I say if anyone really dislikes a hobby that much, perhaps they should find a new, easier hobby...

MAN you really have to stretch to present a debate... going on a head boat is the same as hunting a preserve .. REALLY ????? I'm not guarantee anything .. but still pay to participate ...

I do not have a boat.. so if I want to fish Erie or any other large lake I have to use the charters or head boat or go with a freind ... and even if I went with a fellow angler I'd offer to pay for gas and some expenses .... that's like a preserve then .. since I paid for some of it.. huh ????? WOW....

BOY === you really do live in an elitist world far from the average Joe....

As for deer set-ups...

I usually sit 3-400 yards from the backyard feeders.... and as you said there has been no food there for at least 30 days before I sit and in fact I have actually already quite feeding for this season because I do plan on hunting here again this year in the early seasons ... and with the rains Blackberries are everywhere...

so other than natural habit no real reason for the deer to head to the feeders in Oct-Dec...

how about those food plots.. still drawing deer from that 1,000 yards away place you sit at in those surrounding 1,000 ACRES .... on the way to the plot ??

Do I have to type slower so you can read and comprehend?

I wrote that the beet patches drew deer from a 400 acres area and beyond, possibly to 1000 acres and that the 75 acre corn field drew deer from the mountains as evidenced by the fly over.

That's not exactly what you wrote..

Each one is about the size of a large livingroom -- about 25 feet by 25 feet. They draw deer from the rest of the 400 acres of that farm as{b] well from the other surrounding farm areas. So in total they probably draw deer, not all at once of course, from about 1000 acres or more. And there is plenty else for them to eat, they just prefer the beets.

#1 you did mentioned the plot draws deer from more than 1,000 yards away where you sit... that was being honest ...that's why I was surprised you hunt that close to the plot...

course nothing wrong with that --- guys pay thousands to sit in a blind over looking or near a food plot on a preserve or deer farm too and call that deer hunting and even get on TV doing it...

it would draw enough deer that the flyovers estimated the population in that area as 90 deer per square mile, while the surrounding 10 square miles had a population of deer of less than 10 per square mile. Now do you really think that 90 dpsm lived in that cornfield area and less than 10 dpsm lived all around it or do you think that perhaps that food plot drew deer from the surrounding area to it at night?

#2 you mentioned NOTHING about any mountains and suggested that the reason the 10 square miles around the area was low in deer population (10dpsm) that night was because of the corn plot ... that's is what you wrote === and my point was.. bologna==== deer would not travel 10 miles to a corn plot each night unless they were STARVED and then yes they would THEN they would stay and live there (thus 90 dpsm and 10 in surrounding areas.. NO FOOD ).. not travel back and forth....... not even the night they heard the helicopter flying by .. they did NOT say let's go travel 10 miles to get our picture taken ...







better proof read a little.... NO I do not think for one minute that corn plot drew deer from 10 miles away.....

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If you feel you have no "say" and do not vote.. then do not copmplain,...