LockedWould You Take This Bet?
deerfly
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Would You Take This Bet?
Here is an interesting article by John Street regarding the decrease in license sales. Would you care to make a bet? by John C. Street Within ten years we’ll be purchasing our hunting (and, most likely, our fishing) licenses from the Pennsylvania Department of Conservation and Natural Resources. Do you think that’s crazy? Would you care to make a bet? Before you answer those questions, please consider: As recently as forty years ago, Junior and Senior Resident license sales were approximately 1.2 million. By 1998, these two categories were down to a little over 91,000. Last year (the 2009-2010 season), according to information taken from the Pennsylvania Game Commission’s web site, Junior and Senior license sales were down to 701, 539. Preliminary projections for 2010-2011 are expected to come in somewhere between 650,000 and 675,000. And here’s the worst part. From the 1998-1999 season to the 2009-2010 season, Junior Resident license sales alone fell from 98,233 to 38,203. Whether this decline in license sales is a result of the controversial deer management program or a reflection of demographic and population trends is impossible to prove. Certainly, the “Baby Boomer†generation – a vast preponderance of license buyers – is aging out of the equation at an accelerating rate. But how to account for the precipitous (nearly 60%) decline in Junior Resident license sales in just ten years? Given this documented decline, it would be logical to assume the Pennsylvania Game Commission would be solicitous of its remaining “customers.†This, however, is not the case. Despite quantifiable evidence that the guiding mantra – “Healthy forests, healthy deer†– behind their management plan is built on bogus science (neither the deer nor the forests, according to the agency’s own published research, were ever “unhealthyâ€), the program managers have persisted in staying the course. But now it has come to light that they’ve been fudging the figures on the “Harvest Report†(see, “An Independent Assessment of the Pennsylvania Game Commission’s Estimated Annual Deer Harvest 2000-2010†at www.acsl-pa.org). And how do they justify these fudgy figures? Why, in the name of “Biodiversity,†that highfalutin’ term bandied about the Environmental Conflict Industry (in this case, the National Audubon Society) to rationalize their participation in the quest for a New World Order. Then, to add insult to injury, they insinuate (see, “Myths and Legends of the Whitetail,†PENNSYLVANIA GAME NEWS, April 2011) that “sportsmen†support this buffoonery, just pay no attention to those nabobs over there at the Unified Sportsmen of Pennsylvania or those nattering naysayers down there at the Allegheny County Sportsmen’s League. Besides, deer hunters aren’t the only “stakeholders†in the equation, never-you-mind that they’re the stakeholders who’ve been paying the bills for over 100 years. But what about that $1.7 billion industry that’s grown up around this sport? Oh well, that’s just small potatoes. Pennsylvania’s economy is so robust we don’t really need those jobs. And besides, as any member of the Tourism Industry will tell you, people would rather come here to see our deer than to shoot them. So, I predict that within ten years (more likely, five) we’ll be buying our hunting (and, most likely, our fishing) licenses from the Pennsylvania Department of Conservation and Natural Resources. Of course, if the members of the House Game and Fisheries Committee would take their responsibilities seriously … or the outdoor media (and its writers) would stop being enablers for this travesty … Ah, shoot, who am I kidding? So, anyway, would you care to make a bet?
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wayne c
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RE: Would You Take This Bet?
2011/05/04 18:34:56
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Within ten years we’ll be purchasing our hunting (and, most likely, our fishing) licenses from the Pennsylvania Department of Conservation and Natural Resources. Not sure on this, possible i suppose. I know there are some that are pushing for this and would really like to make it happen. Not sure that not enough funding will be an excuse to make it happen though, since the gas dough is just starting to REALLY roll in. And here’s the worst part. From the 1998-1999 season to the 2009-2010 season, Junior Resident license sales alone fell from 98,233 to 38,203. WOW. From years of highest deer densities to lowest. No surprise. A real shame. Given this documented decline, it would be logical to assume the Pennsylvania Game Commission would be solicitous of its remaining “customers.†This, however, is not the case. Hes certainly right on both counts there. "Why, in the name of “Biodiversity,†that highfalutin’ term bandied about the Environmental Conflict Industry (in this case, the National Audubon Society) to rationalize their participation in the quest for a New World Order." Yep. Same nuts. Different day. Then, to add insult to injury, they insinuate (see, “Myths and Legends of the Whitetail,†PENNSYLVANIA GAME NEWS, April 2011) that “sportsmen†support this buffoonery, just pay no attention to those nabobs over there at the Unified Sportsmen of Pennsylvania or those nattering naysayers down there at the Allegheny County Sportsmen’s League . Yeah, i just went and read that. Funny stuff. Apparently we the sportsmen of Pa are responsible for this plan. This is what we wanted according to pgc. lmao. All because a couple of sportsmen groups were asked nearly 10 years ago some very very EXTREMELY basic open to interpretation and vague questions, then they took the answers and twisted them to whatever they wanted them to mean, in this case supporting the 50 year low buck harvests and modern day low herd size in the name of biodiversity extremism. Dont think thats what most of the "hunters" who supported the basic concepts mentioned in the plan nearly a decade ago signed on for. lmao. Unreal. The deciet never stops. Not sure about the dcnr in 10 years. Possibly i suppose. But Id say for the most part, street is right on the money here.
post edited by wayne c - 2011/05/04 18:37:35
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dpms
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RE: Would You Take This Bet?
2011/05/04 20:24:10
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Unfortunately it appears that Mr. Street has left some vital info out on license sales from last year. Resident junior - 38,000 Resident Junior combo - 48,400 Mentored youth permit - 28,500 Grand total of 114,900 Take the mentored youth permit out of it and we still have 86,400.
post edited by dpms - 2011/05/04 20:34:59
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Esox_Hunter
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RE: Would You Take This Bet?
2011/05/04 20:28:13
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Who cares what the outcome of his wager is? You already buy licenses from the DNR/DCNRs of most other states. Just another way for Street to slip in some good old fashioned rambling.
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bluntman
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RE: Would You Take This Bet?
2011/05/04 20:48:23
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ORIGINAL: dpms Unfortunately it appears that Mr. Street has left some vital info out on license sales from last year. Resident junior - 38,000 Resident Junior combo - 48,400 Mentored youth permit - 28,500 Grand total of 114,900 Take the mentored youth permit out of it and we still have 86,400. Dammit dpms, there you go screwing up a good story with facts, what in the he!! were you thinking
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wayne c
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RE: Would You Take This Bet?
2011/05/04 22:17:38
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Dammit dpms, there you go screwing up a good story with facts, what in the he!! were you thinking he was thinking..."now how can i twist the facts and make this actually not look so bad" lmao. dpms say: "Unfortunately it appears that Mr. Street has left some vital info out on license sales from last year. Resident junior - 38,000" Really" John Street says: "And here’s the worst part. From the 1998-1999 season to the 2009-2010 season, Junior Resident license sales alone fell from 98,233 to 38,203 ." Though i must say i feel its more than a little decietful for you to add in "mentored youth permits" when they werent even available because kids under 12 werent even permitted to hunt previously. Just sayin'. Though i see you kinda added a little disclaimer INSTEAD of just excluding the completely inappropriate and incomparable data. Just had to sling that in there for effect that didnt exist otherwise. lol. He didnt include youth combos, but understandable, because in 1998 they didnt exist. Though you should to make an apples to apples combarision, but doing so on my calculator excluding mentors, you still end up with a DECLINE. And I guess since you nitpicked that from the article, then i guess everything is invalid there, and all is well? lol So much for screwing things up with "facts". Some would swear cows could fly if someone else who supports the failing deer plan said so on a message board. ha ha ha.
post edited by wayne c - 2011/05/04 22:45:08
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Would You Take This Bet?
2011/05/04 22:36:42
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wayne c
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RE: Would You Take This Bet?
2011/05/04 22:40:01
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Aw, you ol' goat, ya still got s'more years in ya, you h'aint goin' no place.
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SilverKype
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RE: Would You Take This Bet?
2011/05/04 23:26:49
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I'll bet archery season will run straight thru to flintlock by then. Sundays too !
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dpms
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RE: Would You Take This Bet?
2011/05/05 08:34:30
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ORIGINAL: wayne c Though i must say i feel its more than a little decietful for you to add in "mentored youth permits" when they werent even available because kids under 12 werent even permitted to hunt previously. Just sayin'. Though i see you kinda added a little disclaimer INSTEAD of just excluding the completely inappropriate and incomparable data. Just had to sling that in there for effect that didnt exist otherwise. lol. The only deceit here is from Mr. Street and the comedy is watching folks trying to spin the facts, which are black and white. Let me lay them out again. In 1998 a kid bought a youth license if he wanted to hunt. We sold 98,000 of them. Today a kid can buy either a youth license or a youth combo license if they want to hunt. We sold 38,000 youth licenses and 48,400 combos for a total of 86,400. A decline, but not even close to the 60% he wants his readers to believe. Black and white Wayne. Anyone that knows license trends can see right through what Mr. Street is putting out there. The ultimate deceit. Those that defend his incorrect info are right there with him. Yes, one can add mentored youth permits but that is not a apple to apple comparison which is why I provided the numbers without including them.
post edited by dpms - 2011/05/05 09:08:59
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Would You Take This Bet?
2011/05/05 09:49:35
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longer seasons and Sunday Hunting in 10 years .. now that, I can say, is probably going to happen... with the baby boomers leaving the hunting sports something will have to be done to control game populations. Longer seasons and Sundays may help that happen, but as I said it will take a long time...
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tull66
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RE: Would You Take This Bet?
2011/05/05 12:29:03
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ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout Once again... consider the source .. Street is as anti PGC and negative attitude writer as Slimsky is.. That doesn't hold up since his source of statistics was the PGC. Even though Street messed up a little on his youth numbers, it doesn't change the point he was making which is hunting license sales are going down hill fast. There are many reasons for this but the biggest are lack of game, lack of land, and lack of interest. The 3rd one is a result of the 1st two.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The closer we adhere to the Holy Bible and the US Constitution (as it was written) the closer we get to the model that made America great. The great American experiment worked, human nature just got in the way.
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dpms
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RE: Would You Take This Bet?
2011/05/05 12:34:50
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ORIGINAL: tull66 it doesn't change the point he was making which is hunting license sales are going down hill fast. They are trending down which is a concern. A few bright spots remain though. Problem is he could have made his arguement with factual data and got his point across.
post edited by dpms - 2011/05/05 12:37:23
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tull66
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RE: Would You Take This Bet?
2011/05/05 12:36:26
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ORIGINAL: dpms The only deceit here is from Mr. Street and the comedy is watching folks trying to spin the facts, which are black and white. Let me lay them out again. In 1998 a kid bought a youth license if he wanted to hunt. We sold 98,000 of them. Today a kid can buy either a youth license or a youth combo license if they want to hunt. We sold 38,000 youth licenses and 48,400 combos for a total of 86,400. A decline, but not even close to the 60% he wants his readers to believe. There's plenty of deceit and spin goin' 'round these parts. 1971 total license sales = 1.2 million 2010 total license sales = 700K That's 58% of what it used to be. Again, the exact numbers are way less important than the trend and the reasons for the decline.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The closer we adhere to the Holy Bible and the US Constitution (as it was written) the closer we get to the model that made America great. The great American experiment worked, human nature just got in the way.
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tull66
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RE: Would You Take This Bet?
2011/05/05 12:39:12
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ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout with the baby boomers leaving the hunting sports something will have to be done to control game populations. Yea, they've gotten out of control since '71! Doc, I seriously think you should be drug tested.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The closer we adhere to the Holy Bible and the US Constitution (as it was written) the closer we get to the model that made America great. The great American experiment worked, human nature just got in the way.
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dpms
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RE: Would You Take This Bet?
2011/05/05 12:46:20
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ORIGINAL: tull66 There's plenty of deceit and spin goin' 'round these parts. 1971 total license sales = 1.2 million 2010 total license sales = 700K Who's spinning those numbers?
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SilverKype
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RE: Would You Take This Bet?
2011/05/05 12:48:29
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Tull - Can you explain why Massachusetts deer herd numbers are strongest they've ever been yet license sales are dropping faster than ours ? I never got an answer to this one previously. For some reason, the naysayers must have missed it. I'm not saying game numbers don't influence hunter participation as I don't have an agenda to drive. However, there are alot of inconsistencies when talking game numbers versus hunter participation. The only truth to the equation is 48 states are seeing a drop in license sales.
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SilverKype
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RE: Would You Take This Bet?
2011/05/05 12:50:34
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ORIGINAL: tull66 ORIGINAL: dpms The only deceit here is from Mr. Street and the comedy is watching folks trying to spin the facts, which are black and white. Let me lay them out again. In 1998 a kid bought a youth license if he wanted to hunt. We sold 98,000 of them. Today a kid can buy either a youth license or a youth combo license if they want to hunt. We sold 38,000 youth licenses and 48,400 combos for a total of 86,400. A decline, but not even close to the 60% he wants his readers to believe. There's plenty of deceit and spin goin' 'round these parts. 1971 total license sales = 1.2 million 2010 total license sales = 700K That's 58% of what it used to be. Again, the exact numbers are way less important than the trend and the reasons for the decline. dpms did not do any spinning. He was quoting Streets misrepresentation of the data which was youth sales. You decided to take it down the total sales path which is different.
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tull66
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RE: Would You Take This Bet?
2011/05/05 12:57:28
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ORIGINAL: dpms ORIGINAL: tull66 There's plenty of deceit and spin goin' 'round these parts. 1971 total license sales = 1.2 million 2010 total license sales = 700K Who's spinning those numbers? They're from Streets article.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The closer we adhere to the Holy Bible and the US Constitution (as it was written) the closer we get to the model that made America great. The great American experiment worked, human nature just got in the way.
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tull66
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RE: Would You Take This Bet?
2011/05/05 13:10:24
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ORIGINAL: SilverKype Tull - Can you explain why Massachusetts deer herd numbers are strongest they've ever been yet license sales are dropping faster than ours ? I'm not at all familiar with Mass problems beyond their gov't healthcare and cheating football team. Seriously, I have no idea. I never got an answer to this one previously. For some reason, the naysayers must have missed it. Please...fill us in if you know. I'm not saying game numbers don't influence hunter participation as I don't have an agenda to drive. However, there are alot of inconsistencies when talking game numbers versus hunter participation. The only truth to the equation is 48 states are seeing a drop in license sales. Agree with all dat. I said in my first post here there are many reasons. It's like "why don't kids play outside anymore?". Things are changing, none for the better.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The closer we adhere to the Holy Bible and the US Constitution (as it was written) the closer we get to the model that made America great. The great American experiment worked, human nature just got in the way.
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tull66
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RE: Would You Take This Bet?
2011/05/05 13:13:49
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ORIGINAL: SilverKype dpms did not do any spinning. He was quoting Streets misrepresentation of the data which was youth sales. You decided to take it down the total sales path which is different. I didn't say he was spinning, I meant this thread had a lot of spinning. I agree with him, except I think he and others got sidetracked with hammering down the exact numbers.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The closer we adhere to the Holy Bible and the US Constitution (as it was written) the closer we get to the model that made America great. The great American experiment worked, human nature just got in the way.
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SilverKype
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RE: Would You Take This Bet?
2011/05/05 13:21:58
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ORIGINAL: tull66 ORIGINAL: SilverKype Tull - Can you explain why Massachusetts deer herd numbers are strongest they've ever been yet license sales are dropping faster than ours ? I'm not at all familiar with Mass problems beyond their gov't healthcare and cheating football team. Seriously, I have no idea. I never got an answer to this one previously. For some reason, the naysayers must have missed it. Please...fill us in if you know. I don't know what it is. Clearly, it's NOT game numbers for Massachusetts which is the point. To find that, I just googled "increasing deer numbers" or something. Massachusetts came up. I didn't search beyond that. Like I said, I don't have an agenda but I'm sure I could come up with many more solid facts if I spent the time searching. I knew that 48 states had declining license sales and there ain't no way all those states are doing extensive herd reduction.
post edited by SilverKype - 2011/05/05 13:23:00
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tull66
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RE: Would You Take This Bet?
2011/05/05 13:35:40
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Well dang, I didn't know this was about herd reduction! When I say lack of game, I mean almost everything. When I was a kid, it took about 4-6 hours to bag 2 roosters and more rabbits than I care to carry. When you ran out of property to hunt, you crossed the road.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The closer we adhere to the Holy Bible and the US Constitution (as it was written) the closer we get to the model that made America great. The great American experiment worked, human nature just got in the way.
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SilverKype
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RE: Would You Take This Bet?
2011/05/05 13:45:25
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Really ? Did you read the article ? I see deer mentioned numerous times. Perhaps I missed the other species. Deer hunting is the face of PA hunting so it shouldn't come as a surprise.
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SilverKype
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RE: Would You Take This Bet?
2011/05/05 13:47:54
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ORIGINAL: tull66 It's like "why don't kids play outside anymore?". Things are changing, none for the better. I'm going to guess that's #1. Lifestyle changes. Technology. I hunt with a kid that doesn't like hunting one side of the mountain cause he can't surf the web on his phone !
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deerfly
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RE: Would You Take This Bet?
2011/05/05 16:39:41
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While I agree with Streets premise that herd reduction is largely responsible for the recent decline in license sales . but Street did a poor job of presenting his case and getting his facts straight. Here are a few quotes from the article followed by the corrected data. “As recently as forty years ago, Junior and Senior Resident license sales were approximately 1.2 million.†Forty years ago we did not have junior or senior licenses, there was only a general back tag for all hunters and in 1986 the PGC sold 1,666,771 general resident tags. “By 1998, these two categories were down to a little over 91,000.†In 1998 there were 98,233 jr. license holders and 51,444 senior hunters for a total of 149,677. “Last year (the 2009-2010 season), according to information taken from the Pennsylvania Game Commission’s web site, Junior and Senior license sales were down to 701, 539.†The number John reported was the total of adult license sales( not the senior license sales) and jr. license sales. The actual combined adult, jr. and Sr. license sales was 781,310.
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wayne c
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RE: Would You Take This Bet?
2011/05/05 17:19:44
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"While I agree with Streets premise that herd reduction is largely responsible for the recent decline in license sales . but Street did a poor job of presenting his case and getting his facts straight." I can agree to that. My main contention is that he is 100% correct about deer being a significant factor. I would also agree with the fact (as some have mentioned) that different lifestyles of the new "era" are having an effect. However there isnt a whole lot that can be done about much of that. Therefore it makes it all the more important to do something about the things that we actually can. As for Street, i usually agree with a lot of his conclusions about the deer program, but hes far from someone i agree with all the time. When he goes off on his anti archery hunting rants in particular, id really like to tell him where to stick those particular articles.
post edited by wayne c - 2011/05/05 17:24:28
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deerfly
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RE: Would You Take This Bet?
2011/05/05 18:17:32
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ORIGINAL: dpms Unfortunately it appears that Mr. Street has left some vital info out on license sales from last year. Resident junior - 38,000 Resident Junior combo - 48,400 Mentored youth permit - 28,500 Grand total of 114,900 Take the mentored youth permit out of it and we still have 86,400. If in 2010 we had over 114K hunters below the age of 17 that expressed an interest in hunting, if we retained half of those hunters to become adult license holders the number of adult hunters would be increasing instead of decreasing. So, it appears that junior hunters are quitting at a faster rate than adult hunters. IMHO the main reason for that is the lack of seeing legal game at a rate that makes hunting enjoyable.
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scaremypsu
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RE: Would You Take This Bet?
2011/05/05 19:28:01
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ORIGINAL: deerfly ORIGINAL: dpms Unfortunately it appears that Mr. Street has left some vital info out on license sales from last year. Resident junior - 38,000 Resident Junior combo - 48,400 Mentored youth permit - 28,500 Grand total of 114,900 Take the mentored youth permit out of it and we still have 86,400. If in 2010 we had over 114K hunters below the age of 17 that expressed an interest in hunting, if we retained half of those hunters to become adult license holders the number of adult hunters would be increasing instead of decreasing. So, it appears that junior hunters are quitting at a faster rate than adult hunters. IMHO the main reason for that is the lack of seeing legal game at a rate that makes hunting enjoyable. If 86,400 Junior licenses were equally distributed among 12-15 year old junior hunters 21600 would be in each age class. If 50 % (10800) were retained and they purchased an adult licence in 2011, how would that equate to an increase in adult hunting license sales and how does that equate to junior hunters quitting at a faster rate?
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Would You Take This Bet?
2011/05/05 19:33:58
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