deerfly 
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An Honest forester!!
I was pleased to find this post from a professional forester who was willing to admit that the problem with oak regeneration will not be solved simply by reducing the deer herd. A major problem with regenerating our current oak stands it is that it conflicts with the natural progression of a forest from shade intolerant trees to shade tolerant trees like beech , birch and red maple. Understanding a few basic Forestry concepts might help a few here. The first and most important concept in all of Forestry is shade tolerance...ALL green things have a shade tolerence factor...Lo and behold, Oaks are extremely shade intolerant. They will not successfully reproduce and thrive in the shade of a closed overstory. Rather than criticize the PGC foresters, take some time to go look at the composition of your favorite woodlot. An overstory of shade intolerants(Primarily Oaks, Poplar, Ash, Hickory and an understory of shade tolerants, Maples and beech/Birch.Selective harvests without a removal of the mid-story canopy(pole Soft Maples) will release shade tolerants to dominate the stand. This is why selective harvests really don't work. The next concept to grasp is species progression. There is a natural and relentless shift from shade intolerants to shade tolerants as long as there is no intervention from management. Translation....It will go from Oak to Maple to Beech/Pines over time.The deer issue with thier selective browsing only complicates the issue of regeneration.Try to understand the complexity of the regen cycle is not ONLY the reduction of deer, but the manipulation of shade tolerance.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: An Honest forester!!
2011/04/21 19:16:55
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I know that came from timberpro on huntingpa.com message board... and here's the part I like ... The deer issue with thier selective browsing only complicates the issue of regeneration.Try to understand the complexity of the regen cycle is not ONLY the reduction of deer, but the manipulation of shade tolerance.
I think most guys realize that deer are a problem for regeneration of forests... anyone taking a game land tour or visiting the deer exclosures at Clear Creek can see just how much they can complicate re-generation... the difference inside and outside is amazing.. BUT outside is starting to show improvement with the lower deer population now... reducing the deer population was just STEP #1 in trying to correct the problem.. I can't recall anyone saying deer were the ONLY problem
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/04/21 19:18:08
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Dr. Trout
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RE: An Honest forester!!
2011/04/21 19:22:34
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This from DCNR forestry == Drought, acidic deposition, invasive species, and other forest pests can further complicate forest response and regeneration. Invasive herbaceous plants such as hay-scented fern and non-native stilt grass can inhibit regeneration after over-browsing, as can impacts of pollution on soil fertility.
The lack of regeneration has implications for the future of forest habitat for wildlife.
Some foresters suggest that the dominant tree species may shift as a result of deer over-browsing to more soft maple species.
We do not know the impacts of this species shift on forest wildlife yet, but as changes march forward, it is important to evaluate. And as timberpro stated note this comment == the dominant tree species may shift as a result of deer over-browsing to more soft maple species.
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/04/21 19:24:57
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deerfly
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RE: An Honest forester!!
2011/04/21 19:33:44
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The important thing to note is that tree species will shift to more shade tolerant species with or without over browsing by deer. That means mother nature disagrees with the DCNR position that stands of oak should regenerate as stands of oak despite the natural progression of forests fro shade intolerant species to shade tolerant species.
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psu_fish
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RE: An Honest forester!!
2011/04/21 21:39:11
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burn baby burn
that is how you will get some great Oak generation
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S-10
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RE: An Honest forester!!
2011/04/22 07:49:45
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burn baby burn
that is how you will get some great Oak generation That is one of the easiest ways to do it once you can overcome the publics adversion to fires.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: An Honest forester!!
2011/04/22 08:57:36
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Burning does not always work either ..
They have tried many controlled burns at Clear Creek and the results SUCKED .... even INSIDE the fence and nothing grew back worth anything for deer or wildlife food sources or even trees..
just Mt Laurel and Rhodendrum .....!!!!
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deerfly
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RE: An Honest forester!!
2011/04/22 16:49:45
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I walked our property with a DCNR forester a few weeks ago and ask him what his opinion was of the exclosures he had seen. He indicated that most of the exclosures resulted in increased regeneration ,but that the shade tolerant species like beech, birch and red maple out grew the oak in every case where oak was present. Therefore, in order for the oak to survive ,DCNR staff had to manually remove the competing species and that would not be cost effective for private land owners.
I also ask him if he knew of any links to studies that evaluated exclosures after 15 or 20 years and he said he didn't know of any reports
evaluating their effectiveness.
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bluntman
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RE: An Honest forester!!
2011/04/23 17:19:58
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sounds like they need to kill more doe to help the oaks, if they issue more antlerless permits I might have to come up there and mow some doe
post edited by bluntman - 2011/04/23 17:20:59
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SilverKype
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RE: An Honest forester!!
2011/04/24 01:02:49
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The more recent cuts here (10-15 years) the DCNR has let a number of oaks standing. The older cuts 30-40 years old have very few oaks. The deer use them alot, but perhaps more because most hunters stay out of them. They are nasty from major ice storms making them nearly impenetrable.
My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
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S-10
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RE: An Honest forester!!
2011/04/24 07:41:29
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Most research has documented the use of fire for centuries as a major reason for Oak dominated forests and the lack of the use of fire by modern man as one of the big reasons for the lack of Oak regeneration. Even the PGC in their current Management Plan has as one of their goals the increased use of perscribed burning for regeneration.
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psu_fish
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RE: An Honest forester!!
2011/04/24 10:40:11
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Dr. Trout
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RE: An Honest forester!!
2011/04/24 13:16:27
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At least I'm in Pennsylvania for my examples  the first link looks like they are talking back in the 1990s.. and I saw no mention of Pennsylvanina in the research... I'm not saying fires do not encourage re-generatiion.. what I am saying is in the area of the "big woods" I am familar with they are not working.. the habitat has been so destroyed from over browsing there is not much there to re-grow period... mostly junk stuff and invasive species...not much to feed deer or other wildlife with... The second link was no better 1990s studies and not in Pa.... I did see South Carolina mentioned  with the soil, climate, etc we have in the upper sections of this state I'm not sure those links prove anything for PA... AGAIN.. not saying fire is bad.. it isn't.... it just does not always work and the general public does not like the idea... and it's COSTLY.... but you're free to disagree 
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/04/24 13:17:22
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RE: An Honest forester!!
2011/04/24 15:33:23
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I'm not saying fires do not encourage re-generation.. what I am saying is in the area of the "big woods" I am familar with they are not working I never considered Clear Creek as "big woods". North of Clear Creek yes, such as the ANF, some of Warren, McKean, Potter, Cameron, etc. I was out in Yellowstone after the big fire they had years ago. If you ever get a chance to leave your porch go check out those BIG woods and see the results of regeneration from a very large burn in a big woods. You would defiantly change your view.
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deerfly
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RE: An Honest forester!!
2011/04/24 15:50:41
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PA was specifically mentioned in the first link. Similar declines were noted for white oak
in northwest and southeast Pennsylvania, eastern West Virginia,
and northern Virginia (Orwig and Abrams 1994,
Abrams and McCay 1996, Black and Abrams 2001, Whitney
and Decant 2001). However, the largest decline in white
oak (from 81 to 30%) was reported on South slopes in
southern Illinois (Fralish et al. 1991).
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S-10
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RE: An Honest forester!!
2011/04/24 16:33:52
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Taken off the PENNSYLVANIA DCNR site
Prescribed Fire
There is increasing concern among natural resource professionals that fire dependent community types are being lost through the processes of natural succession and the exclusion of fire. To help sustain fire dependent community types in Pennsylvania, the Bureau of Forestry is working closely with the Ecosystem Management Advisory Committee (EMAC). The EMAC has identified the Bioreserve Strategy as a potential method for identifying and developing management plans for fire dependent community types. This effort should give better insight on how to proceed on this issue.
Additionally, several forest districts have been working closely with researchers from the US Forest Service on using prescribed fire to help obtain oak regeneration. The bureau has had success and will continue these research efforts and explore options for using prescribe burning more often as a silvicultural tool.
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psu_fish
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RE: An Honest forester!!
2011/04/24 18:23:00
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I took a couple of silviculture classes at Penn State, one of the professors would tell us all the time how bad Smokey the Bear was for foresty management. He also talked about overbrowsing by deer.
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