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SilverKype
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RE: AR/HR Poll... 2010/12/10 09:23:39 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: wayne c

"It's not that I'm lazy, it's just that I have no need to revisit it."

I guess thats why you discussed it in your last several posts now?

I lack desire to go pick the audit apart and make up anything and everything I can to try to discredit the pgc like some people."

I dont see where anything was "made up" (with exception of your rediculous current analysis of course). All i did was post the data showing exactly what you asked for. Didnt add or make up "anything". It speaks for itself. Sorry you ended up looking foolish though. Wasnt my intent. I thought youd be smart enough to know some of us dont make claims we cant substantiate with the facts.

"I know I know, last year was 108,000 but for whatever reason, the folks that run with that #, don't mention that 5 Saturdays in archery and the first day of rifle were rainy and the first Saturday was a blinding snow storm for much of the state."

Sorry no dice. First off, that didnt have athing to do with the herd estimate data. Second, Those werent the conditions where i was hunting, though i heard some areas of the state that was the case. That goes for the archery and the first day. Even if it were true, whats the excuse for the year before that? And the year before that? lmao. Also the data i posted was not harvest data. It was actual HERD SIZE ESTIMATION data. PGCS HERD SIZE ESTIMATION DATA. That was only available on and because of the audit. So there goes that arguement straight out the window eh? lmao. You can also see the decreases on the annual reports per year in different format, but this one illustrated clearest for those who may not understand anything but the basics.

"What if the harvest would have been 150,000 ? Would you be whinin' that too many were shot ?"

Nope. Especially not if it were a SUSTAINABLE harvest at that level. Show me an average harvest of 150k bucks over for say, the next few years, and i'd say that would be respectable harvest. As long as it werent simply a one year deal out of 10 pathetic ones. Where it was the product of poor weather during a couple of years prior, and perfect conditions that particular year.


"What if this years the buck harvest is greater than 108,000. Would that be reduction ?"

I didnt determine what was or wasnt a reduction in the data i supplied. That was pgcs estimates of the herd size bud. Want information on how they made the estimates, please feel free to shoot them an email for complete explanation of the process.


Glad i could clear up your confusion. Im hitting the hay. Will be out bright and early tomorrow drivin' for a couple kids. Now you have a good evening sir!.




I discussed tag allocations, not the audit.

There is no excuse for lower harvest numbers in recent years. I don't understand why you expect an excuse.

You're not going to get 150,000 sustainable harvest with antler restrictions. AR protects around half of 1.5 year old bucks.

My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
#121
SilverKype
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RE: AR/HR Poll... 2010/12/10 09:26:02 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: wayne c

-changed to no comment. lol.




Way to take off the emotional panties wayne. Now, if you would call the pgc by their name instead of gameless comm. like a little girl, you could graduate to big boy pants. LOL

My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
#122
deerfly
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RE: AR/HR Poll... 2010/12/10 09:26:12 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: SilverKype


ORIGINAL: deerfly

We can agree that the pgc does not know total deer counts. How can one reduce a herd by 40% without knowing how many 100% is ?


So ,when the buck harvest decreases by over 40 % it is a clear indication that the statewide herd decreased by over 40%.





Ahhh.... not sure that's correct. If the ratio was one buck to one doe, it would be.


You obviously don't have clue how they calculate the estimated deer density because you obviously never read the explanation in the DMP. Furthermore, fawns are 50% M/F so a balanced harvest would be 50% M/F ,not 50% antlered to antlerless.
#123
SilverKype
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RE: AR/HR Poll... 2010/12/10 09:42:45 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: deerfly


ORIGINAL: SilverKype


ORIGINAL: deerfly

We can agree that the pgc does not know total deer counts. How can one reduce a herd by 40% without knowing how many 100% is ?


So ,when the buck harvest decreases by over 40 % it is a clear indication that the statewide herd decreased by over 40%.





Ahhh.... not sure that's correct. If the ratio was one buck to one doe, it would be.


You obviously don't have clue how they calculate the estimated deer density because you obviously never read the explanation in the DMP. Furthermore, fawns are 50% M/F so a balanced harvest would be 50% M/F ,not 50% antlered to antlerless.


We are not talking deer density. You stated if buck harvest decreased over 40%, then the herd statewide decreased over 40%. Firstly, you have AR that doesn't allow all bucks to be harvested and secondly our buck doe ratios are skewed toward doe. A buck tag comes with a general license while doe tags are controlled. So a 40% reduction in buck harvest does not mean of our herd is down over 40%.


Please program your brain to do this:

Pick up gun.
Walk outside.
Find deer.
Shoot it.



My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
#124
DarDys
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RE: AR/HR Poll... 2010/12/10 10:08:26 (permalink)
"Please program your brain to do this:

Pick up gun.
Walk outside.
Find deer.
Shoot it."

So that's were I have been screwing up.  Why didn't you post this earlier?  It might have helped.

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
#125
deerfly
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RE: AR/HR Poll... 2010/12/10 10:59:13 (permalink)
We are not talking deer density. You stated if buck harvest decreased over 40%, then the herd statewide decreased over 40%. Firstly, you have AR that doesn't allow all bucks to be harvested and secondly our buck doe ratios are skewed toward doe. A buck tag comes with a general license while doe tags are controlled. So a 40% reduction in buck harvest does not mean of our herd is down over 40%.

Now it doesn't get much funnier than that!! Apparently you don't even understand that a 40% reduction in the buck harvest equates to a 40% reduction in the average statewide deer density. ARs have little to do with the decrease in the buck harvest since the 1.5 buck that are saved the first year are available to be harvested the following year and the B/D ration has absolutely nothing to do with the 40% reduction in the buck harvest.
#126
SilverKype
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RE: AR/HR Poll... 2010/12/10 11:12:14 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: deerfly

We are not talking deer density. You stated if buck harvest decreased over 40%, then the herd statewide decreased over 40%. Firstly, you have AR that doesn't allow all bucks to be harvested and secondly our buck doe ratios are skewed toward doe. A buck tag comes with a general license while doe tags are controlled. So a 40% reduction in buck harvest does not mean of our herd is down over 40%.

Now it doesn't get much funnier than that!! Apparently you don't even understand that a 40% reduction in the buck harvest equates to a 40% reduction in the average statewide deer density. ARs have little to do with the decrease in the buck harvest since the 1.5 buck that are saved the first year are available to be harvested the following year and the B/D ration has absolutely nothing to do with the 40% reduction in the buck harvest.


You just stated what you stated a few posts up.

My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
#127
eyesandgillz
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RE: AR/HR Poll... 2010/12/10 11:16:16 (permalink)
Wow, nice coating of snow on the ground and he is still on here posting about harvest figures, percentages, and what not. 
 
 
#128
DarDys
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RE: AR/HR Poll... 2010/12/10 12:16:13 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: eyesandgillz

Wow, nice coating of snow on the ground and he is still on here posting about harvest figures, percentages, and what not. 



 
Unfortunately, I am tied to the computer until about 4 PM -- right across the road from where the deer play.

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
#129
deerfly
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RE: AR/HR Poll... 2010/12/10 12:35:58 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: SilverKype


ORIGINAL: deerfly

We are not talking deer density. You stated if buck harvest decreased over 40%, then the herd statewide decreased over 40%. Firstly, you have AR that doesn't allow all bucks to be harvested and secondly our buck doe ratios are skewed toward doe. A buck tag comes with a general license while doe tags are controlled. So a 40% reduction in buck harvest does not mean of our herd is down over 40%.

Now it doesn't get much funnier than that!! Apparently you don't even understand that a 40% reduction in the buck harvest equates to a 40% reduction in the average statewide deer density. ARs have little to do with the decrease in the buck harvest since the 1.5 buck that are saved the first year are available to be harvested the following year and the B/D ration has absolutely nothing to do with the 40% reduction in the buck harvest.


You just stated what you stated a few posts up.


That may be because you didn't understand it the first time and refuse to educate yourself on the issues.
#130
SilverKype
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RE: AR/HR Poll... 2010/12/10 12:54:47 (permalink)
Or maybe I did understand it and brought to light that your % comparison does not make sense. What issue do I need to educate myself on ? That PA hunting sucks ? It sure does from the computer screen.
post edited by SilverKype - 2010/12/10 12:55:11

My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
#131
deerfly
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RE: AR/HR Poll... 2010/12/10 13:17:56 (permalink)
So far you have demonstrated that you don't understand any issue we have discussed ,so you have to start at square one and read the DMP and the AWR.. My % comparison may not make sense to you but it is a documented fact that you can't refute or explain away.
#132
SilverKype
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RE: AR/HR Poll... 2010/12/10 13:52:48 (permalink)
I don't have to start from square one. I've read the DMP and AWR. I just choose to not pick it apart like you. I don't see what I want as fact and the next thing as pgc propaganda like you do.

We are not headed anywhere here. I believe it's time to go afield. Try it sometime.

My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
#133
deerfly
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RE: AR/HR Poll... 2010/12/10 14:27:11 (permalink)
If you read those reports you either didn't understand them or simply chose to ignore anything that contradicted your opinions. Our discussion isn't going anywhere because all you do is disagree without explaining why and you never support your opinions with facts.
#134
tippecanoe
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RE: AR/HR Poll... 2010/12/10 15:47:51 (permalink)
YES
 
no, not statewide
#135
spoonchucker
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RE: AR/HR Poll... 2010/12/10 16:03:33 (permalink)
" Apparently you don't even understand that a 40% reduction in the buck harvest equates to a 40% reduction in the average statewide deer density."

So weather conditions, and hunter participation play no role? Only population density? You, and S-10 keep pointing to the "dramatic" decrease in deer hunter numbers. So it would stand to reason that harvest numbers would decline as well. Regardless of population density.

Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

Step Up, or Step Aside


The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody.

GL
#136
wayne c
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RE: AR/HR Poll... 2010/12/10 16:07:31 (permalink)
"I discussed tag allocations, not the audit."

No, you were talking about alot of things. And the only reason you spoke of allocation was because the main issue was herd reduction despite claims of stabilization, saying prove it, because deerfly correctly told you that was the case. You tried to deflect with nonsense about tag reduction. Sorry son, but didnt work fer ya very well did it? lmao. Well you got your proof. The gameless commissions plan is a fraud and its documented in just about every aspect.

"Way to take off the emotional panties wayne."

Youre the one who has consistently let your emotions run amuck. Worse than a woman with pms. I think we settled that already previously a good while back when you tried to get me into a pizzin' match. Im not the one who whine cries and attacks everyone because i dont have a clue what the hell im talking about, yet tries to take part in discussion anyway pushing against rationale.

There is a remedy for that looking foolish however. Next time you are proven wrong (and im sure it wont be long) just say this "Oh, okay, my bad, i was mistaken, thanks for the info." Instead of your usual diatribe that makes you sound like some psychotic 15 year old kid that had his *** beat one too many times in Jr. high..

"What issue do I need to educate myself on ?"

I think it would make a much shorter list for you to tell us one(s) where you dont. lol.


post edited by wayne c - 2010/12/10 16:45:08
#137
spoonchucker
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RE: AR/HR Poll... 2010/12/10 16:10:27 (permalink)
". ARs have little to do with the decrease in the buck harvest since the 1.5 buck that are saved the first year are available to be harvested the following year "

This is inaccurate as well. Not all of the 1.5's that are "saved" by AR will necessarily survive until the following season. Some will get hit by cars, some succumb to disease, others will sustain injury, and succumb to predators, and or infection. Secondly, a 2.5 will be more savvy, and difficult to harvest than the 1.5.

Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

Step Up, or Step Aside


The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody.

GL
#138
eyesandgillz
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RE: AR/HR Poll... 2010/12/10 16:24:20 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: DarDys

ORIGINAL: eyesandgillz

Wow, nice coating of snow on the ground and he is still on here posting about harvest figures, percentages, and what not. 




Unfortunately, I am tied to the computer until about 4 PM -- right across the road from where the deer play.

 
Dardys,
I hope you didn't think that was directed at you?  
 
PS - How did those tenderloins taste?  Pretty good, I'm sure.  A little butter/olive oil in a hot cast iron skillet, some onions and peppers, fresh sea salt and cracked pepper and maybe a little garlic and then just seared enough so the muscle stops quivering...mmm mmm good....
#139
deerfly
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RE: AR/HR Poll... 2010/12/10 16:25:36 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: spoonchucker

". ARs have little to do with the decrease in the buck harvest since the 1.5 buck that are saved the first year are available to be harvested the following year "

This is inaccurate as well. Not all of the 1.5's that are "saved" by AR will necessarily survive until the following season. Some will get hit by cars, some succumb to disease, others will sustain injury, and succumb to predators, and or infection. Secondly, a 2.5 will be more savvy, and difficult to harvest than the 1.5.


That is why I said ARs have"LITTLE" to do with the decrease in the buck harvest. For example, if ARs are saving 25K more buck than without ARs with a non-hunting mortality rate of 15% that would only account for a decline of 3,750 in the buck harvest. If 2.5+ buck were so much smarter than 1.5s, then there would be a much higher percentage of mature buck in the harvest, but 4.5+ buck only comprise about 2% of the buck harvest.
So weather conditions, and hunter participation play no role? Only population density? You, and S-10 keep pointing to the "dramatic" decrease in deer hunter numbers. So it would stand to reason that harvest numbers would decline as well. Regardless of population density.



I didn't say anything about weather not effecting the harvest from one year to the next. But, in any case we are not talking about one year decline in the buck harvest, we are talking about a 9 year downward trend .
#140
wayne c
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RE: AR/HR Poll... 2010/12/10 16:32:10 (permalink)
"ARs have little to do with the decrease in the buck harvest since the 1.5 buck that are saved the first year are available to be harvested the following year "


That is correct. VERY little. Not only is nonhunting mortality minimal, its made up for by the "age classes filling up" when comparing to earlier harvests where pgc says the age classes didnt exist in any appreciable numbers or percentages. All those incredibly smart older bucks that some talk about as the reason for less harvest doesnt hold any water whatsoever unless you believe a large portion of them are NEVER harvested.. Thing is, unless they die of old age. They ARE added to the harvest sooner or later. And we are WELL far enough into the program now, where the age classes have become as full as they will get age proportionately. Unless of course you think there are plenty of 8 year olds running around that will be adding to the 9 year old age class next year that were a product of 2002.

post edited by wayne c - 2010/12/10 16:41:55
#141
wayne c
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RE: AR/HR Poll... 2010/12/10 16:39:40 (permalink)
"A little butter/olive oil in a hot cast iron skillet, some onions and peppers, fresh sea salt and cracked pepper and maybe a little garlic and then just seared enough so the muscle stops quivering...mmm mmm good...."


Straps sliced very thin, fry in olive oil, onions peppers mushroons, salt & some garlic salt near the end. Shovel it onto half a loaf of lightly toasted under the broiler italian bread split lengthwise, slap on bout 4 slices of Swiss..

NOW we're talkin!.

post edited by wayne c - 2010/12/10 16:40:34
#142
Big Tuna
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RE: AR/HR Poll... 2010/12/10 17:30:31 (permalink)
I agree with both recipes,except the cheese would be provolone or mozzerella. Does anyone know the tally of bucks killed by mentors or Jr. hunters inpast years and what kind of tag do mentors use?
#143
DanesDad
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RE: AR/HR Poll... 2010/12/10 22:33:35 (permalink)
#144
Ironhed
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RE: AR/HR Poll... 2010/12/11 00:03:13 (permalink)
I can't believe I'm about to lock my own thread!

Sweet Baby Jesus, are you out there? (Must not raining up there!)

Ironhed

p.s. (Dardys, tally up another cry for help)

Blacktop Charters
#145
BIGHEAD
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RE: AR/HR Poll... 2010/12/11 05:01:34 (permalink)
Ken just spit coffee over my screen thanks LOL Deerfly From the looks of MOST of your post Do TELL just how are you able to HUNT?????? You are on here in most of the best times to out in the woods hunting. And maybe seeing some deer. But of coarse there are no deer to found so why go!!! Or do you post from the woods with a laptop or your cell phone to kill time when your not seeing deer? It looks like you have a couple options,1 get your self into the PGC/WCO and make some changes,2 Move to another state of your choice or find your self better hunting grounds. Crying on a internet forum is NOT going to change ANYTHING. Dave
#146
S-10
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RE: AR/HR Poll... 2010/12/11 05:54:42 (permalink)
Folks may not like what Deerfly and WayneC post but most of it is correct and they have the numbers to back it up rather that just relying on perception. Just because you don't like the message is no reason to shoot or belittle the messanger. All of this information is on record for those that care to do their own research rather than listening to the spin of others.
#147
DarDys
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RE: AR/HR Poll... 2010/12/11 09:33:20 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: eyesandgillz

ORIGINAL: DarDys

ORIGINAL: eyesandgillz

Wow, nice coating of snow on the ground and he is still on here posting about harvest figures, percentages, and what not. 




Unfortunately, I am tied to the computer until about 4 PM -- right across the road from where the deer play.


Dardys,
I hope you didn't think that was directed at you?  

PS - How did those tenderloins taste?  Pretty good, I'm sure.  A little butter/olive oil in a hot cast iron skillet, some onions and peppers, fresh sea salt and cracked pepper and maybe a little garlic and then just seared enough so the muscle stops quivering...mmm mmm good....

 
I didn't think that at all.  I was just expressing my frustrations at being stuck at the keyboard instead of across the street with a rifle.  Checking into the hunting threads between work items is hunting vicariously.
 
Actually, what we do with the tenderloins is a little different.
 
I slice them as thin as possible with a mandalin slicer -- almost to the point of being chipped. Heat up some quality olive oil in a skillet.  while the oil is heating, spice up the slices a little bit -- I use a mesquite seaosning, a little creole seaosning, some sea salt, some pepper, chives, basil, Hog's Breath Saloon blackening seasoning, etc.  Dump the shavinings into the hot oil and tunr constantly until that are just cooked though -- it only takes about a minute or so.  WARNING -- wear an old, long sleeve shirt -- there will be hot splatters.  When cooked through to the point of a color change -- remove from heat and drain.  Let cool for a hour or two.  Put in a tupperware conatainer and add Teresa's Lake Shore Deli (there is the Erie connection -- I buy 6 bottles each trip up) until the meat is moist.  Close the lid and shake to coat.  Repeat until all the meat is coated, but not dripping.  Rest in fridge overnight.  Serve cold on a good hard roll.  Talk about a half time snack.  Especially with a cold beer.
 
I did go over last night at about 4 PM and the farmer had three other people, which covers the area pretty well.  So I didn't horn in.  He told me that he killed a yote inthe morning.
 
Heading out this afternoon (obligations in the morning) to the farm where the BB died.  I will try to be more selective this time because I don't want to see there be a shortage of skin cream and baby powder during the holiday season from some of the deer gods getting chaffed in the butt because of wadded up panties.

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
#148
DarDys
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RE: AR/HR Poll... 2010/12/11 09:36:50 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Ironhed

I can't believe I'm about to lock my own thread!

Sweet Baby Jesus, are you out there? (Must not raining up there!)

Ironhed

p.s. (Dardys, tally up another cry for help)


 
No reason to lock the thread Ken.  Or call on Baby Jesus -- this one will blow over by mid next week.
 
By the way, are you still hunting birds?  The mutts each won their division at the PA State Open Pheasant Hunting Championship.  there is no living with them.

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
#149
deerfly
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RE: AR/HR Poll... 2010/12/11 19:58:57 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: BIGHEAD

Ken just spit coffee over my screen thanks LOL Deerfly From the looks of MOST of your post Do TELL just how are you able to HUNT?????? You are on here in most of the best times to out in the woods hunting. And maybe seeing some deer. But of coarse there are no deer to found so why go!!! Or do you post from the woods with a laptop or your cell phone to kill time when your not seeing deer? It looks like you have a couple options,1 get your self into the PGC/WCO and make some changes,2 Move to another state of your choice or find your self better hunting grounds. Crying on a internet forum is NOT going to change ANYTHING. Dave


It is a common ploy on the MBs to attack someone's character and hunting ability when they can't refute with facts their adversaries position. I have been hunting deer for 55 years and I am not competing with anyone for the largest buck killed, the most number of deer killed, or the great white hunter of the MBs award. I hunt because I enjoy trying to outsmart one of the most elusive game animals we have for the benefit of the other members of our group. I have hunted six days this rifle season and haven't carried a gun since the firsts Tuesday. This season I have seen a grand total of 3 deer and I wouldn't have had an ethical shot at any of them.

But, today what would have been a rather dismal season turned out to be a success on the last drive of the day. Since the first Friday we have been trying to harvest a doe that was crippled by another hunter. Today, after walking for about five miles in some of the best habitat in the state and only seeing one doe I was more than just a bit discouraged. But my sister convinced me to make one more drive to attempt to push a deer to my 13 year old niece. Despite all odds we managed to push the crippled doe to my niece and she make a good one shot kill on her first deer. That changed a very disappointing season into one we will all remember until we are no longer capable of remembering.
#150
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