wayne c
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RE: PGC contradicts AR reasoning
2010/12/03 14:54:59
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"HR did go too far in some areas and I won't argue that fact. But, even in those areas, where there's a will, there's a way...it may take much more work than the typical hunter was used to but, you can make your own success, even on public land." I can agree with that to a point speaking of only on an individual basis though. But can you tell me that sentiment applies when looking at the big picture? I really dont think so.
WHile i might expect added effort being necessary myself since i know going in, i will be passing on bucks throughout most of the season, and am not just looking for one good shot at a legal buck. I dont think it should be expected of the average hunter to be a great woodsman, and take deer hunting as a second job to have good chances for success at harvesting just "any legal buck" or doe. And to have to feel guilty for harvesting a doe to top it off, because of the herd size and all the complaining. Also something i believe you ar overlooking is that basically pgc says the goal has been to generally hold the herd stable. and arguably we have been doing that. What happens if more hunters take your advice the next couple of years and success rate were to increase significantly? The herd isnt stabilized, it gets further reduced. So not only is it not realistic to expect it to occur, if it did, it would actually be detrimental, and thats why it is not the solution.
As for me personally, Im confident in my abilities,ive killed plenty in my hunting career, and whatever pgc does to the herd wont stop that from happening. But I dont base my feelings on the deer management program based upon my success or lack of, and certainly would never base it on that alone even if i were far less successful. I base my feelings on everything that matters. How it effects my time afield, that of others, the success and effects to those i hunt with, elders, youngin's, or other huntin' buds... What effects are their to the sport itself, are the actual goals sensible & solid, Can things percieved by many as "problems" be reasonably expected to improve? and other things Im sure id forgot to mention.
post edited by wayne c - 2010/12/03 15:11:05
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deerfly 
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RE: PGC contradicts AR reasoning
2010/12/03 15:06:36
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When the buck doe ratio is skewtered towards does, then the rut would have to be prolonged because there are so many does, the bucks cant breed them all during their first cycle. Some would come back into heat 28 days later again. With a more 1-1 ratio, the rut would be more concentrated because there would be a buck for every doe and they'd all get bred around the same time. Prior to ARs our B/D ratio was around 1:2.1. Now it is approx. 1:1.8 and such a small improvement had absolutely no effect on breeding rates or the length of the rut. The main reason why the breeding period is as long as it is ,is because some female fawns have their first estrus during Dec., Jan. and Feb. and they account for the vast majority of late born fawns.
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zugbug
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RE: PGC contradicts AR reasoning
2010/12/03 15:25:14
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I guess I too am a dolt...along with god knows how many thousands of other hunters who have hung it up due to the incompetence and dishonesty of the PGC. I couldn't give a $hit less how big the antlers are; I want the meat. If you AR enthusiasts want to hunt 'trophies' you always had that option....why in the hell do we all have to be trophy hunters too? If I don't get a buck this Saturday or next, it will be 8 of the last 9 years that I did not connect. I see buck every year, but every year I have to play the 'guess how many points I have' or 'do I have brow tines' as they cruise by. It's Bull$hit! BTW, I do have two on the wall....both over 130" and both shot BEFORE AR.....just happened to be the 1st bucks that I saw those years.
10 years ago there were 1,000,000+ hunters who took to the woods the 1st day of buck season...this year just 750,000. A 25% decrease in 10 years.....sounds like alot of dolts headed for the door. You PGC apologists be sure to turn out the lights when the last one leaves.....
Zug
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DanesDad
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RE: PGC contradicts AR reasoning
2010/12/03 15:31:50
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ORIGINAL: deerfly
When the buck doe ratio is skewtered towards does, then the rut would have to be prolonged because there are so many does, the bucks cant breed them all during their first cycle. Some would come back into heat 28 days later again. With a more 1-1 ratio, the rut would be more concentrated because there would be a buck for every doe and they'd all get bred around the same time.
Prior to ARs our B/D ratio was around 1:2.1. Now it is approx. 1:1.8 and such a small improvement had absolutely no effect on breeding rates or the length of the rut. The main reason why the breeding period is as long as it is ,is because some female fawns have their first estrus during Dec., Jan. and Feb. and they account for the vast majority of late born fawns.
Where did you get these B/D ratio numbers? Because they dont jibe with my observations at all, especially pre AR/HR. I can believe that it is more in line now but I find it hard to believe that in, say 1989, it was anywhere near 1-2.1.
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deerfly
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RE: PGC contradicts AR reasoning
2010/12/03 17:05:48
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I have a PGN article from 1983 that lists the adult breeding B/D for each county and most were 1:2 or better. I also have a report from Bret Wallingford that shows the D?D ratio in 2001 was 1:2.1.
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psu_fish
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RE: PGC contradicts AR reasoning
2010/12/03 18:01:22
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so far I've seen a button buck and 7 does....great ratio
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deerfly
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RE: PGC contradicts AR reasoning
2010/12/03 18:10:53
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Do you really believe the adult B/D ratio in that area was worse than 1:7?
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tmiller
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RE: PGC contradicts AR reasoning
2010/12/03 18:12:45
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Wayne good posts but, to add to it. I don't want to see them do away with AR's either, just modified a little. If the pgc did away with AR's could you imagine what that might do to the herd. Possibly a lot less deer. Very good posts and I agree.
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psu_fish
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RE: PGC contradicts AR reasoning
2010/12/03 18:23:56
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ORIGINAL: deerfly
Do you really believe the adult B/D ratio in that area was worse than 1:7?
Sure has heck isnt 1:2 like AR was supposed to make it Back in 2005 I shot a dandy 8 point off SGL 45. Each year I've seen more and more does shot and less bucks on the back of trucks. Too many button bucks are getting the hammer dropped on them in the 2 week season. Plus PGC has allowed several shallow gas wells to be drilled and a couple of timber cuts to be made all since AR came in
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deerfly
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RE: PGC contradicts AR reasoning
2010/12/03 18:31:36
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Sure has heck isnt 1:2 like AR was supposed to make it But how do you know that to be true? There could have been 3 bucks running together 20 yds. from where you were hunting and you wouldn't have know they were there. Have you ever sat down with pencil and paper and figured out the effect the production of fawns at a 1:1 ratio has on the adult breeding B/D ratio the following year?
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deerfly
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RE: PGC contradicts AR reasoning
2010/12/03 18:33:48
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ORIGINAL: tmiller
Wayne good posts but, to add to it. I don't want to see them do away with AR's either, just modified a little. If the pgc did away with AR's could you imagine what that might do to the herd. Possibly a lot less deer. Very good posts and I agree.
Repealing ARs would result in more pre-season deer ,not less.
post edited by deerfly - 2010/12/03 18:34:22
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tmiller
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RE: PGC contradicts AR reasoning
2010/12/03 18:39:10
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But if hunters that haven't harvested a buck since AR's they might take advantage of shooting smaller buck and be very sucessful.
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deerfly
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RE: PGC contradicts AR reasoning
2010/12/03 18:50:06
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Prior to ARs,when we harvested 80% of our 1.5 buck our herd increased to 1.6M PS deer. If we returned to harvesting 80% of our PS buck it will have no effect on the future populations or harvests.
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psu_fish
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RE: PGC contradicts AR reasoning
2010/12/03 19:53:17
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ORIGINAL: deerfly
Sure has heck isnt 1:2 like AR was supposed to make it
But how do you know that to be true? There could have been 3 bucks running together 20 yds. from where you were hunting and you wouldn't have know they were there.
Have you ever sat down with pencil and paper and figured out the effect the production of fawns at a 1:1 ratio has on the adult breeding B/D ratio the following year?
Your too funny duuuude. I suggest you take a walk with me sometime. All of my shots are within 100 yards. We had a dusting for Monday AM before it melted, and the past few days we have a good blanket of snow in the woods here in SGL 45 and north/northwest Clarion Co. in general. Like I said to many button bucks are getting mowed down. Keep the 3 points per side if you want. Decrease the length of doe season or # of tags. This ratio of 2:1 is pure mularky by the PGC
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S-10
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RE: PGC contradicts AR reasoning
2010/12/03 20:18:32
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No- the discussion was the reason for AR and I just posted this from an article that came out in 2002 about what AR was going to be and the reasons for it.
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deerfly
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RE: PGC contradicts AR reasoning
2010/12/03 20:21:33
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A walk with you would be a waste of time since you refuse to deal with reality. Any individual hunter during rifle season samples a very small percentage of the herd in the area he hunts and therefore the observations while hunting are meaningless. Do yourself a favor and look at the antlered to antlerless harvest rates for the past 20 years and explain how we could have a B/D ratio that is worse than 1:2.1.
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Claypool313
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RE: PGC contradicts AR reasoning
2010/12/03 20:46:18
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Who I might suggest are the real dolts are those that thought AR was anything other than the sizzle that sold the steak of HR. AR's total design was to make harvesting a buck difficult, for the average PA hunter (the 70% of license buyers that only get to hunt 3 days or less). to the point that those that are not chef's, connessoirs of antler soup, or can spend the majority of as many seasons as possible hunting, would achive their freezer filling by harvesting the first legal deer they were able to. By doing so, HR was accelerated to the pace that its goals were achieved before most hunters were able to get onto that "other subject." Well said. Well said.
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eyesandgillz
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RE: PGC contradicts AR reasoning
2010/12/03 23:49:01
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One of my suggestions to get the doe harvest and buck harvest more inline would be to make guys that shoot a button buck use their buck tag. A buck is a buck, whether it is .5 or 4.5 yrs old. If they have already used their buck tag and only had an antlerless tag, then make them pay a button buck fee of $25 to $50 and they have to surrender one doe tag.
It would be a way to force guys to slow down and identify their targets better and hopefully get more bucks into the herd.
PSS - Alt for president!
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Dr. Trout
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RE: PGC contradicts AR reasoning
2010/12/04 10:03:55
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All this complaining about the BB harvest .. it has not change that much in 20 years even with a two week season... With a three day season for antlerless deer, hunters shoot the first deer without antlers they see and never give a thought to it might be a BB, now many can pass on a small one hoping for a larger one in the time remaining in a 2 week season... even I have shot BBs before the concurrent season .. I have not shot one since even with taking two antlerless deer a year since it started... I have time to look and shoot the larger antlerless ones....  others just want the venison and do not care about the size or if it is male or female
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2010/12/04 10:07:09
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eyesandgillz
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RE: PGC contradicts AR reasoning
2010/12/04 14:18:12
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You make guys use their buck tag on a BB and I guarantee you the BB harvest as a percentage will go down quite a bit.
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deerfly
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RE: PGC contradicts AR reasoning
2010/12/04 15:59:06
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All this complaining about the BB harvest .. it has not change that much in 20 years even with a two week season...
Actually, there has been a significant change in the BB harvest ,just over the past 11 years. In 1999 we harvested 44K BB and they comprised 18% of the total male deer harvest. By 2002 the BB harvest was 77K and comprised 31% of the male deer harvest.But, in 2009 the BB harvest dropped back to 44K, but they comprised 28% of the male deer harvest. So ,with ARs, BB comprise a significantly higher percentage of the male deer harvest than before ARs. What is even more disturbing is that we are harvesting 44K BB from a herd that is much smaller than in 1999. The 1999 BB harvest resulted in a record buck harvest of 203K in 2000, while a BB harvest of 51K in 2008,resulted in a buck harvest of only 108K buck in 2009.
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psu_fish
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RE: PGC contradicts AR reasoning
2010/12/04 18:01:17
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ORIGINAL: eyesandgillz
You make guys use their buck tag on a BB and I guarantee you the BB harvest as a percentage will go down quite a bit.Â
Winner Winner Chicken Dinner
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deerfly
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RE: PGC contradicts AR reasoning
2010/12/04 18:05:36
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ORIGINAL: psu_fish
ORIGINAL: eyesandgillz
You make guys use their buck tag on a BB and I guarantee you the BB harvest as a percentage will go down quite a bit.Â
Winner Winner Chicken Dinner
Big time first class loser. The antlerless harvest is the tool the PGC uses to manage the herd and requiring hunters to use their buck tag on a BB would destroy the effectiveness of the antlerless harvest ,since 44% of the antlerless harvests are fawns.
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tull66
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RE: PGC contradicts AR reasoning
2010/12/04 18:33:55
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ORIGINAL: eyesandgillz
You make guys use their buck tag on a BB and I guarantee you the BB harvest as a percentage will go down quite a bit.
If you do that it will increase the number of illegal bucks left to rot. It's already a nightmare identifying 4 points on one side, looking for a button is insanity.
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psu_fish
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RE: PGC contradicts AR reasoning
2010/12/04 20:51:17
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deerfly, didnt you vote No for AR per Ironhead's poll?
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Dr. Trout
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RE: PGC contradicts AR reasoning
2010/12/04 21:14:57
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How could we possible use a buck tag on a BB.. they would not meet antler restrictions and would be considered a protected buck..
ALSO BT ..
trying to compare the percentage of BB killed to the number of total legal bucks killed is about as silly as I have ever heard from you ... I still laugh at some of your attempts to prove your opinions..
there is not ONE SINGLE button buck shot in "mistake" for a buck.. they are killed because they have no antlers.. thus are a percentage of the antlerless deer harvest and as I posted that percentage has changed very little in the past 20 years...
they are considered a legal antlerless deer and as such I see no real reason they should be protected..
and totally understand why they get shot...
it's bad enough trying to see 3 or 4 on a side at times... 60% of today's hunters could not ID a button buck traveling alone in the forest... and the other 40% are likely to sooner or later shoot a BB by mistake .. it fact I remeber you posting that you have shot them...
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psu_fish
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RE: PGC contradicts AR reasoning
2010/12/04 22:08:47
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Im just confused that some people want AR, but are ok with killing BB at 0.5 years old when one of the goals of AR was to let bucks grow older, and conversly people want herd reductionto get a better B/D ratio, but BB are getting killed off making the B/D ratio worse
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DanesDad
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RE: PGC contradicts AR reasoning
2010/12/04 23:12:44
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ORIGINAL: deerfly
A walk with you would be a waste of time since you refuse to deal with reality. Any individual hunter during rifle season samples a very small percentage of the herd in the area he hunts and therefore the observations while hunting are meaningless. Do yourself a favor and look at the antlered to antlerless harvest rates for the past 20 years and explain how we could have a B/D ratio that is worse than 1:2.1.
Mathmatically, you are right but personal observationwise, I agree with PSU. And, I'm not talking about two or three seasons here I'm going back to 1977. In the same general area. The only way I can think of to explain this contradiction (One one side, we kill more does than bucks, so the ratio must be close but I see 30 baldies for every antlered deer), is that bucks must use habitat differently, or at different times than does.
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DanesDad
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RE: PGC contradicts AR reasoning
2010/12/04 23:15:44
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ORIGINAL: deerfly
I have a PGN article from 1983 that lists the adult breeding B/D for each county and most were 1:2 or better. I also have a report from Bret Wallingford that shows the D?D ratio in 2001 was 1:2.1.
I can believe the 2001 report, but things were different in 1983. Hell, back then (when we had two weeks of buck, followed by two or three days of doe) one good rainstorm could create a swing in the doe harvest of 100,000 or more.
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S-10
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RE: PGC contradicts AR reasoning
2010/12/05 07:41:03
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That's the interesting thing about doing the math when having these discussions. Everyone has an opinion based on their own personal observations but if the math says those personal observations are incorrect then they are incorrect when measured on a statewide basis. The whole future of the number of bucks in the herd and hunting in general is dependent of the number of antlerless deer harvested.
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