Helpful ReplyBrown trout

Author
Post
Essentials Only Full Version
Jreckner154
New Angler
  • Total Posts : 47
  • Reward points: 0
  • Status: offline
2015/12/23 09:37:18 (permalink)

Brown trout

Im kinda new to this site and not trying to make any one angry just making an observation.
I have been reading posts on this forum,guys ranting and raving "SAVE THE BROWN TROUT!"
Some folks are even going as far as to insinuate that brown trout are native to lake erie and it's tribs.
Not at all true If you do some research. you will find that browns are not native to erie or north America. They are in fact an invasive fish that where introduced in the late1800's as a sporting fish that ended up threatening the true native brook trout.
I was wondering where is all the hype about saving a true pennsylvania native?
#1
List Solutions Only

26 Replies Related Threads
    Divemaster
    Expert Angler
    • Total Posts : 744
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2015/03/22 10:03:58
    • Location: Pittsburgh, PA
    • Status: offline
    Re: Brown trout 2015/12/23 10:22:51 (permalink)
    I'm Thank you! I love Browns and Chrome as much as they next guy, they're beautiful fish and great fighters (though, it's hard for anything to fight equally as well as about anything in the Salvelinus genus), but I'm often amazed at how little attention our native Brook and Lake Trout get. I'd be all for a program to try to re-establish brooks in the Tribs, but I'm sure that anybody with a yellow rope would love to take as many home as they could (maybe C&R only for certain species?).
    post edited by Divemaster - 2015/12/23 10:25:32
    #2
    Guest
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 2852
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2012/05/17 08:04:02
    • Status: online
    Re: Brown trout 2015/12/23 11:00:13 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bingsbaits 2015/12/23 11:06:32
    You sure that "ranting and raving" is here?  Been around awhile and haven't seen it.  
     
    Have seen some guys suggesting that the brown trout program could be a true trophy class fishery with a little self-restraint and C&R since brown trout are repeat spawners.  I don't think I've EVER seen a post on here that suggested brown trout are native to any body of water in the US.  Although there are wild, self-sustaining populations of browns in PA, I imagine that most if not all who fish for 'em realize the difference between wild and native.   
     
    If your larger concern is the native lake trout and brook trout, that's fine and a legit concern that stocked species out compete them in their native habitat and reduce their numbers.  How many hundreds of years has it been since brook trout were a part of the landscape in Lake Erie and its tributaries, if ever?  Their demise throughout PA had much more to do with environmental factors than stocking brown trout.  Their future recovery and proliferation would certainly be aided by ceasing to stock trout in their native ranges where they currently have a foothold.  
     
    Don't think you'll make anybody angry, but you'd probably have more discussion here if you would have said, "Hey, what do you guys think PA could do to enhance wild lake trout and brook trout populations?" 
     
    As far as Erie goes, it's all about the $ for PFBC.  Unfortunately, I don't imagine that a wild brook trout program in the Erie tribs would create as much revenue for the PFBC as the steelhead circus.  Maybe an addition to the Erie watershed stocking program of brook trout might create some opportunities that some are looking for though.  Don't know enough about lake run brook trout to know if it's feasible though.  
    post edited by rsquared - 2015/12/23 11:01:16
    #3
    bingsbaits
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 5067
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2007/03/01 06:32:10
    • Location: NW, PA
    • Status: online
    Re: Brown trout 2015/12/23 11:18:15 (permalink)
    You hit that nail on the head.
    If you want to save the Brookies stop stocking trout on inland creeks that are capable of sustaining wild populations. Not sure the Erie tribs ever had a large population of Wild Brookies.
     
    The Brown trout program that the PFBC is trying to establish is somewhat new with recent stockings in the last few years.
    When trying to establish a new/or better fishery why not cut the creel limit or make them C&R for a few years so you can study your return on investment. Study to see if it's worth the time and money to stock them and what your return rates are.. Which really can't be done when they are roped and smoked as soon as they return. Would only take 4-5 years to see what Lake Erie can produce in size of TROPHY fish and return rates.. 


     
     I love the sweet smell of Victory and the Salty taste of Liberal Tears in my coffee. BB


    #4
    Jreckner154
    New Angler
    • Total Posts : 47
    • Reward points: 0
    • Status: offline
    Re: Brown trout 2015/12/23 12:35:47 (permalink)
    I don't know how it would need to look like. From what I have read about brook trout they are very similar to browns. They spawn late summer/autumn and are a predator fish eating a large amount of bug life and other small fish and their eggs. The exception is when they go to the lake they don't go deep. Staying shallow keeps them from other native predators like lake trout.
    The problem would be the brown, steelhead and walleye that where stocked as game fish that caused the decline of brookies in pa lakes and streams/rivers.
    So I'm inclined to say to bring back the brook trout to pa you need to remove all other non native species. Unfortunately we can't have one with the other
    #5
    Guest
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 2852
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2012/05/17 08:04:02
    • Status: online
    Re: Brown trout 2015/12/23 13:13:02 (permalink)
    Well, the big question that you haven't answered . . .
     
    Were brook trout ever native to Lake Erie and its tributaries in the first place?  Checked out a couple different things quickly online, and can't find any indication that they were in any numbers, if at all, at least in PA.  At least since people have been keeping records and paying attention for the past 150 years.  
     
    If yer talkin' about native species outside of the Erie watershed, I'm sure you'll find many fishermen on here that have the same interest and concern.  
     
     
    #6
    Jreckner154
    New Angler
    • Total Posts : 47
    • Reward points: 0
    • Status: offline
    Re: Brown trout 2015/12/23 14:35:56 (permalink)
    Were brook trout ever native to lake erie? The only proof I have is trout unlimited pdf file stating that brook trout are native to great lakes and upper mississippi water shed. That would,in my opinion include lake erie. It also states that brook trout were extripated from Western pa by the 1950's. Theoretically brooks could survive in most erie tribs but only if there were no steelhead, browns, walleye or other invasive fish. Unfortunately the stocking of several game fish not native to erie and the building of canals that allow other predator fish a way around natural barriers brook trout and at one time lake trout were both extripated from erie.
    Don't misunderstand me. All I fish for is trout in streams.but Browns and steelhead are an invasive fish just like the lampreyes eel. People are fighting for lake trout So where is the fight for the brooks?
    #7
    Divemaster
    Expert Angler
    • Total Posts : 744
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2015/03/22 10:03:58
    • Location: Pittsburgh, PA
    • Status: offline
    Re: Brown trout 2015/12/23 14:50:42 (permalink)
    I believe that Brooks were native to certain Erie tribs, however abundant or rare they may have been. Although it is difficult to find concrete evidence for either arguments. If you look up range maps for eastern brook trout, some will show their range creeping along erie's shoreline even a bit in to Ohio, and other maps won't show them anywhere around the lake. However, I believe I heard from one or two people here the other day that a couple NY tribs used to have great wild Brook trout fishing before steelhead were stocked which leads me to believe that they were/are native to at least a few streams in the area.
    #8
    genieman77
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 2778
    • Reward points: 0
    • Status: offline
    Re: Brown trout 2015/12/23 18:03:01 (permalink)
    funny...one man's treasure is another man's invasive species in meed of eradication
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brook_trout

    As an invasive species

    Although brook trout populations are under stress in their native range, they are considered an invasive species where they have been introduced outside their historic native range.[38][39][40] In the northern Rocky Mountains, non-native brook trout are considered a significant contributor to the decline or extirpation of native cutthroat trout (Oncorhynchus clarki) in headwater streams.[41] Non-native Brook trout populations have been subject to eradication programs in efforts to preserve native species.[42][43] In Yellowstone National Park, anglers may take an unlimited number of non-native brook trout in some drainages. In the Lamar River drainage,a mandatory kill regulation for any brook trout caught is in effect.[44] In Europe, introduced brook trout, once established, have had negative impacts on growth rates of native brown trout (S. trutta).[12]
     
     
     
    ..L.T.A.
    #9
    Divemaster
    Expert Angler
    • Total Posts : 744
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2015/03/22 10:03:58
    • Location: Pittsburgh, PA
    • Status: offline
    Re: Brown trout 2015/12/23 18:32:35 (permalink)
    genieman77
    funny...one man's treasure is another man's invasive species in meed of eradication https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brook_trout

    As an invasive species

    Although brook trout populations are under stress in their native range, they are considered an invasive species where they have been introduced outside their historic native range.[38][39][40] In the northern Rocky Mountains, non-native brook trout are considered a significant contributor to the decline or extirpation of native cutthroat trout (Oncorhynchus clarki) in headwater streams.[41] Non-native Brook trout populations have been subject to eradication programs in efforts to preserve native species.[42][43] In Yellowstone National Park, anglers may take an unlimited number of non-native brook trout in some drainages. In the Lamar River drainage,a mandatory kill regulation for any brook trout caught is in effect.[44] In Europe, introduced brook trout, once established, have had negative impacts on growth rates of native brown trout (S. trutta).[12]   ..L.T.A.


    Funny how so many species always thrive outside their native range. Brooks, bows, heck, look at the US Blue Catfish population. They've been extirpated from the upper Ohio around Pittsburgh where they were once native but they're doing great as an invasive species in so many east-coast rivers.

    I think the mandatory kill of Brooks over in the Rockies is a good thing, it's getting rid of invasive species. I might suggest that we do the same thing here in the few wild Brook trout streams we have left. The fewer two-feet Browns eating as many natives as they can, the better. I'd never suggest getting rid of rainbows and Browns entirely and I love fishing for them. However, perhaps find suitable habitat to establish wild rainbows and Browns where they won't be competing with native species that have a similar diet such as Brookies, stream bass, or suckers. I'm sure there's got/had to be several large enough streams in the state where the only resident fish were self-sustaining Cyprinids or darters that could handle the predation of introduced game and still maintain a healthy population.
    #10
    Jreckner154
    New Angler
    • Total Posts : 47
    • Reward points: 0
    • Status: offline
    Re: Brown trout 2015/12/23 19:04:34 (permalink)
    I'm with ya dive master I'm not saying kill the browns and bows. I enjoy catching them also. That's all that is around my neck of the woods more bows than browns. And they are breeding. 100 years ago the streams were filled with brookies untill humans and other fish ate them all up. So instead of setting a low limit and stopping the invasive killers of the native brookies. 100 years ago the pbfc just raised the price for a licenses and stocked the fish that were cheaper to care for. And now people are crying about c&r, save the browns. The brookies were filling the streams just fine till the stupid human tricks.
    #11
    Divemaster
    Expert Angler
    • Total Posts : 744
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2015/03/22 10:03:58
    • Location: Pittsburgh, PA
    • Status: offline
    Re: Brown trout 2015/12/23 22:27:49 (permalink)
    Jreckner154@live.com
    I'm with ya dive master I'm not saying kill the browns and bows. I enjoy catching them also. That's all that is around my neck of the woods more bows than browns. And they are breeding. 100 years ago the streams were filled with brookies untill humans and other fish ate them all up. So instead of setting a low limit and stopping the invasive killers of the native brookies. 100 years ago the pbfc just raised the price for a licenses and stocked the fish that were cheaper to care for. And now people are crying about c&r, save the browns. The brookies were filling the streams just fine till the stupid human tricks.


    And that's the sad truth. I fully support the PFBC, but I do believe that they need to change several things. For example, less trout stockings in creeks where they won't survive half a year due to rope 'n smokers and poor water quality and in place more water/habitat improvement projects, as well as more emphasis on our native species (whether they be Brook Trout and Lake Trout or Northern Hogsuckers and Gilt Darters). I understand that revenue may be an issue for these things, however, I also think that raising license prices (a decent bit, not just a couple dollars) would be beneficial for everyone. It would provide the PFBC with more money as well as get rid of half of the people on opening day of trout that call themselves "fishermen" because they go out one day a year and drag home 10" hatchery mutts on a yellow rope to rot away in the back of their freezer for a year just to show their friends that they can catch stockies. Sure, less people would buy licenses, but they (the fish commission) would still make more profit than they do now because we (the true fishermen, who believe it to be more of a lifestyle than a one to two day hobby) would almost all be happy to pay a bit more for a license if it meant we received better results from said commission.

    Sorry for the ramble, kind of strayed from the topic of this thread towards the end, I just need to vent these thoughts sometimes, and I'm sure I'm not alone here either haha.
    post edited by Divemaster - 2015/12/23 22:31:46
    #12
    CAPTAIN HOOK
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 2384
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2002/09/28 22:31:08
    • Location: N.W. Pa.
    • Status: offline
    Re: Brown trout 2015/12/24 07:33:31 (permalink)
    I know a few Northern Hogsuckers......
    #13
    steelhead sam
    New Angler
    • Total Posts : 18
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2011/02/12 03:13:52
    • Location: beaver county
    • Status: offline
    Re: Brown trout 2015/12/26 00:46:10 (permalink)
    I don't know why anyone fights for the lakers. they are a nasty glob of fat, and they don't run up the creeks where I prefer to fish. kill em all!!! 
    #14
    CAPTAIN HOOK
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 2384
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2002/09/28 22:31:08
    • Location: N.W. Pa.
    • Status: offline
    Re: Brown trout 2015/12/26 12:35:13 (permalink)
    steelhead sam
    I don't know why anyone fights for the lakers. they are a nasty glob of fat, and they don't run up the creeks where I prefer to fish. kill em all!!! 


    Why you coming down on Divemaster ? You need to broaden your fishing experiences. You "can catch" lots of good strong fighting Lakers from shore just not in this state. Don't knock what you haven't tried.
    #15
    cbeagler
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 1811
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2008/11/08 16:03:28
    • Location: Fairview, PA
    • Status: offline
    Re: Brown trout 2015/12/26 16:27:33 (permalink)
    steelhead sam
    I don't know why anyone fights for the lakers. they are a nasty glob of fat, and they don't run up the creeks where I prefer to fish. kill em all!!! 




    Everything you need to know about that position may be found in those three sentences.

     

    #16
    Divemaster
    Expert Angler
    • Total Posts : 744
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2015/03/22 10:03:58
    • Location: Pittsburgh, PA
    • Status: offline
    Re: Brown trout 2015/12/26 17:19:25 (permalink)
    steelhead sam
    I don't know why anyone fights for the lakers. they are a nasty glob of fat, and they don't run up the creeks where I prefer to fish. kill em all!!! 


    Have you ever even caught one? Don't get me wrong, I love trolling for chromers and their acrobatics are unrivaled by anything I've ever caught, but lake trout are burly, bottom-diving, fighting machines that pound for pound fight equally as well as Muskellunge. And maybe the lakers are just making a smart decision to breed in the shallow waters of the lake, where the snaggers and ignorant rednecks that bother to no end the fish that enter the tributaries along with the considerate folks that have to tolerate them, can't kill them as soon as they're within reach of a hook. Not to mention, they're native lake-dwelling apex predators that play a key role in the ecosystem.

    Maybe that's why we fight for those "nasty globs of fat".
    #17
    Divemaster
    Expert Angler
    • Total Posts : 744
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2015/03/22 10:03:58
    • Location: Pittsburgh, PA
    • Status: offline
    Re: Brown trout 2015/12/26 17:23:57 (permalink)
    CAPTAIN HOOK
    steelhead samI don't know why anyone fights for the lakers. they are a nasty glob of fat, and they don't run up the creeks where I prefer to fish. kill em all!!! 

    You "can catch" lots of good strong fighting Lakers from shore just not in this state. Don't knock what you haven't tried.


    Actually, the last time we were up and got skunked on steel (although, I'd say it was probably more like we saw a total of two fish all weekend more than it was getting skunked) I had a pair of follows from decent sized lakers at the mouth of 12-mile from the shoreline. Casting big 'ol streamers as far as I could in to the main lake with a 6 weight fly rod. Just wished I would've hooked up with one of them (I see a road trip coming up soon!).
    #18
    SteelSlayer77
    Expert Angler
    • Total Posts : 489
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2010/08/31 21:00:00
    • Status: offline
    Re: Brown trout 2015/12/28 15:39:45 (permalink)
    I think some people read or hear other people talking about wild browns and then jump to their own conclusion that wild equals native when in fact it doesn't.  I'm surprised at how many anglers I talk to who think there are native browns or that browns were once native to PA.
    #19
    mike55
    Novice Angler
    • Total Posts : 86
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2011/09/08 21:57:11
    • Status: offline
    Re: Brown trout 2016/01/10 20:34:56 (permalink)
    Massive browns out in the lake, its an absolute shame PFBC does not care enough to have a c and r for them.
     
    Cant wait to hear what will come out of the upcoming steelhead meeting.
     
    I hear the commissioner is going to repeat everything people have been warning about for years on this forum.
     
    Lets go keep some 16 inch steelhead 
    #20
    Divemaster
    Expert Angler
    • Total Posts : 744
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2015/03/22 10:03:58
    • Location: Pittsburgh, PA
    • Status: offline
    Re: Brown trout 2016/01/11 06:34:55 (permalink)
    mike55
    Divemaster
    Trolling for chromers
     Trolling for chromers AKA, Pulling them up from the depths as fast as I can, giving them the bends, and killing hundreds a year before they ever get to run into the creeks.

    Actually, no. We don't hurry up any fish we catch, although steelhead do tend to rocket to the surface to jump within 30-60 seconds no matter what depth. Most of them are in perfect health once boated and after a picture or two they're torpedoed back in to the water and swim away. The ones that are bloody or gasping go back to the cottage and make a good meal for the night. Either way, we still have a right to keep up to 5 per person each day if we wanted to, but instead we chose to be considerate and release most. And, by the way, if you've never tried it, trolling is much more enjoyable than stream fishing for steelhead as they fight better, the experience isn't dependent on water conditions, and there's no rude people that try to find room to jam in next to you. But that's just my opinion and I respect all of you stream fishermen. Don't get me wrong, I love stream fishing, but for wild brook trout and on unscouted streams where you don't see another person all day, just not on top of piles of scared fish with dozens of people casting at them 24/7.
    post edited by Divemaster - 2016/01/11 07:08:06
    #21
    freshwaterdrumR
    Expert Angler
    • Total Posts : 603
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2005/09/18 11:25:06
    • Location: Pittsburgh
    • Status: offline
    Re: Brown trout 2016/01/11 09:18:29 (permalink)
    mike55
    Divemaster
    Trolling for chromers

     
    Trolling for chromers AKA,
     
    Pulling them up from the depths as fast as I can, giving them the bends, and killing hundreds a year before they ever get to run into the creeks.



    Bahahahaha. You're right Bro, the only reason those fish exist in the lake is so they can swim up the tribs and get snagged 15 times in 3" of water by the real "sportsmen". 
     
    mike55
    Massive browns out in the lake, its an absolute shame PFBC does not care enough to have a c and r for them.
     
    Cant wait to hear what will come out of the upcoming steelhead meeting.
     
    I hear the commissioner is going to repeat everything people have been warning about for years on this forum.
     
    Lets go keep some 16 inch steelhead 




    LOL.  This isn't a stocked trout delayed harvest stream.  Its the freakin great lakes dude. Its a huge and complex ecosystem, and I doubt simply catch and releasing some fish is going to make a difference. Read up on the alewife collapse on lake huron years back, or the current king salmon issues on lake O and maybe you will realize there is a lot more at play out in the lake that decides what happens with fish numbers and runs than whether or not some rednecks keep a few stocked fish for the smoker.
     
     
     
     
     
     
    #22
    Divemaster
    Expert Angler
    • Total Posts : 744
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2015/03/22 10:03:58
    • Location: Pittsburgh, PA
    • Status: offline
    Re: Brown trout 2016/01/11 09:42:11 (permalink)
    freshwaterdrumR
    mike55
    Divemaster
    Trolling for chromers
     Trolling for chromers AKA, Pulling them up from the depths as fast as I can, giving them the bends, and killing hundreds a year before they ever get to run into the creeks.

    Bahahahaha. You're right Bro, the only reason those fish exist in the lake is so they can swim up the tribs and get snagged 15 times in 3" of water by the real "sportsmen".


    Whaaat? But I thought steelhead preferred being jammed 100 fish per hole in small creeks with little to eat while getting hooks thrown at and dragged over them instead of solo hunting seemingly unlimited numbers of shiners and smelt in wide open expanses of the clean, cool lake with no predators after they're about 16-20".
    #23
    mike55
    Novice Angler
    • Total Posts : 86
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2011/09/08 21:57:11
    • Status: offline
    Re: Brown trout 2016/01/11 18:33:22 (permalink)
    fishwaterdrumR,
     
    A brown trout c&r should have been implemented day 1 when they started stocking. Kind of common sense. Simply because its such a new program and would of been a good way to monitor returns. Don't really have to explain much more about it. There are countless threads on this forum of members who would agree.
     
    Divemaster,
     
    100 fish per hole???? Please tell me where because it has been about 5-10 years since that has happened. Probably doesn't happen anymore because you hook 200 fish in the lake, release them, but fail to realize it will kill them just about every time.
     
     
    Oh and,
     
    Where did you get them sick glasses?

    #24
    Divemaster
    Expert Angler
    • Total Posts : 744
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2015/03/22 10:03:58
    • Location: Pittsburgh, PA
    • Status: offline
    Re: Brown trout 2016/01/11 18:56:02 (permalink)
    mike55
     Divemaster, 100 fish per hole???? Please tell me where because it has been about 5-10 years since that has happened. Probably doesn't happen anymore because you hook 200 fish in the lake, release them, but fail to realize it will kill them just about every time.  Oh and, Where did you get them sick glasses?


    It was an exaggeration, although Manchester hole might have 100 on certain days, not that there's any casting room to access them. Maybe you just fail to realize how resilient most fish are. I personally have many larger aquariums at home housing primarily local species and I often take legal sized fish home that I catch on (often barbed) hook and line both from shallow streams and deep areas of the open lake. Within 5-10 days, 90% of those fish have had their hook wounds completely healed and are literally eating food out of my hands including everything from sunfish and catfish to trout and suckers. So don't try to say that 100% of the steelhead that are caught in open water die, as I can tell you that you are 100% false in this case. As for the small amount of them that I release that do die from stress? They're food! If they died in deep water then Burbot will eat them, if in shallow water either Channel Cats or Suckers. All of which are native fish that I'm pretty sure aren't going to complain about a free meal of trout. Oh and thanks for the compliment, they're actually prescription glasses though, so try to contain your jealousy :).
    post edited by Divemaster - 2016/01/11 21:19:38
    #25
    joebaker79
    Expert Angler
    • Total Posts : 805
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2003/11/13 14:58:47
    • Status: offline
    Re: Brown trout 2016/01/11 19:07:50 (permalink)
    I fished over plenty of 100 fish holes on many streams this fall. It didnt last after november, but yeah we still had those initial runs. But it used to be that way all year till April.
    #26
    freshwaterdrumR
    Expert Angler
    • Total Posts : 603
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2005/09/18 11:25:06
    • Location: Pittsburgh
    • Status: offline
    Re: Brown trout 2016/01/11 21:09:57 (permalink)
    Countless threads where members would agree?
    I hear the commissioner is going to repeat everything people have been warning about for years on this forum?

    Lol maybe the fish commission should just hire the biologists of fisherie to get the brown trout runs going strong!!!!! Yinz guys know best!

    Seriously. There is more to it than fish getting stocked then caught and released.
    #27
    Jump to: