S-10
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RE: Out of hand...
2010/12/27 21:40:54
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What some of you fellows apparently don't realize when you tell folks to move here or there to improve their chances is that statewide it doesn't work. It's a simple law of supply and demand where the demand already exceeds the supply of deer. If Deerfly and his 5 friends move to another area and are successful that merely means that somewhere down the line someone else will not be. The current harvest is designed to either keep the herd stable or decrease it so it's not a matter of unsuccessful folks moving to a better location because in the end the same number of deer will be harvested. Deerfly may be happy then but someone else will not.
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Ironhed
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RE: Out of hand...
2010/12/27 21:43:42
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Out of hand...
2010/12/27 21:48:18
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^AMEN !!! Deerfly may be happy then but someone else will not. And that's is EXACTLY why it is called deer hunting... some are successful and some are not.. some are happy some are not... some accept it for what it is ... other whine.... 
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S-10
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RE: Out of hand...
2010/12/27 21:48:33
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Care to explain the hogwash. It's a very simple supply and demand calculation. That's why your hunting area is posted, so you can control the supply for yourselves.
post edited by S-10 - 2010/12/27 21:53:00
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bluntman
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RE: Out of hand...
2010/12/27 21:53:16
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ORIGINAL: S-10
Care to explain the hogwash. It's a very simple supply and demand calculation.
( hôg'wôsh', -wÅsh, hÅg'-)  n. Worthless, false, or ridiculous speech or writing; nonsense. Garbage fed to hogs; swill. Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/hogwash#ixzz19N4SULMr
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S-10
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RE: Out of hand...
2010/12/27 21:56:10
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some accept it for what it is ... other whine No- what they do is work to change it, and that includes pointing out the errors, misleading statements, etc on venues like this to garner support to change, and it is working. 
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S-10
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RE: Out of hand...
2010/12/27 22:06:27
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Bluntman--I see your understanding of supply and demand is about as good as your shooting. I won't bother you with carrying capacity, percentages, MSY, and the like. G-nite
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Out of hand...
2010/12/27 22:19:32
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No- what they do is work to change it, and that includes pointing out the errors, misleading statements, etc on venues like this to garner support to change, and it is working NO.. what they do is post and post and post with the same old stuff convincing no one of anything.... thus what I call "whining"..... there would be NO discussions if those of us with opposing opinions... pointing out the errors, misleading statements, etc ... would stop posting the "other side of the story".... thus the " deer wars".. nickname.. I have yet to see on ANY message board someone say that discussions on DMP on message boards like these have changed anyone's mind... they simply support the opinions most already have about the PGC or the DMP... just soemthing to pass the time when not hunting or fishing.... the majority on either side are NOT going to write to anyone, call anyone, or research anything on their own,.. they will believe what they want to believe and argue with those opposing that opinion.... it's been that way since deer hunting became what is probably the #1 sport in Pa .....
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2010/12/27 22:21:43
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psu_fish
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RE: Out of hand...
2010/12/27 22:29:45
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ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
No- what they do is work to change it, and that includes pointing out the errors, misleading statements, etc on venues like this to garner support to change, and it is working
NO.. what they do is post and post and post with the same old stuff convincing no one of anything.... thus what I call "whining"..... there would be NO discussions if those of us with opposing opinions... pointing out the errors, misleading statements, etc ...
would stop posting the "other side of the story".... thus the " deer wars".. nickname..
I have yet to see on ANY message board someone say that discussions on DMP on message boards like these have changed anyone's mind... they simply support the opinions most already have about the PGC or the DMP...
just soemthing to pass the time when not hunting or fishing....
the majority on either side are NOT going to write to anyone, call anyone, or research anything on their own,.. they will believe what they want to believe and argue with those opposing that opinion.... it's been that way since deer hunting became what is probably the #1 sport in Pa .....
but that doesnt stop you from being a hand puppet does it?
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retired guy
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RE: Out of hand...
2010/12/27 23:23:35
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Hey Deerfly-- Where I live it is more common than not to have to hunt small parcels surrounded by development. I live in one of the most populated cities in the entire US. and I get a deer or two each year. No I do not have the luxory of walking for miles on big parcels of land but must sit tight all day or become an accomplished still hunter in a manner not usually seen in big parcels. --try still hunting 20 acres for a day. We pick our shots VERY carefully and often must pass for another day .. Its a part of the hunt to be VERY accurate and selective with shots and develops a very different kind of hunting experience. Not a bad experience -but a different one with a great sense of accomplishment. We usually only hear ONE shot in the distance with an occasional second a few minutes later-Not bang bang bang- evreyone knows that stuff with kill the golden goose. Im still on a box of shells I bought about 8 years ago. Hunting is Hunting---we only have many more self imposed rules of engagement-actually its kind of neat- if you are up to the challenge. Try it yourself first and then introduce your niece to it- you may be surprised.
post edited by retired guy - 2010/12/27 23:32:22
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RE: Out of hand...
2010/12/28 00:46:39
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delete
post edited by Outdoor Adventures - 2010/12/28 00:47:58
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RE: Out of hand...
2010/12/28 00:47:21
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X2 !!!! ORIGINAL: S-10
some accept it for what it is ... other whine
No- what they do is work to change it, and that includes pointing out the errors, misleading statements, etc on venues like this to garner support to change, and it is working.
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RE: Out of hand...
2010/12/28 00:55:23
(permalink)
How wrong you are! Many I know have contacted the state reps and sent numerous letters explaining their views. This is the only way to be heard.Instead of using the word "whining" you could of said they do not agree. Disagreeing and whining are not the same. Maybe to you it is ! ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
No- what they do is work to change it, and that includes pointing out the errors, misleading statements, etc on venues like this to garner support to change, and it is working
NO.. what they do is post and post and post with the same old stuff convincing no one of anything.... thus what I call "whining"..... there would be NO discussions if those of us with opposing opinions... pointing out the errors, misleading statements, etc ...
would stop posting the "other side of the story".... thus the " deer wars".. nickname..
I have yet to see on ANY message board someone say that discussions on DMP on message boards like these have changed anyone's mind... they simply support the opinions most already have about the PGC or the DMP...
just soemthing to pass the time when not hunting or fishing....
the majority on either side are NOT going to write to anyone, call anyone, or research anything on their own,.. they will believe what they want to believe and argue with those opposing that opinion.... it's been that way since deer hunting became what is probably the #1 sport in Pa .....
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Ironhed
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RE: Out of hand...
2010/12/28 01:06:52
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Care to explain the hogwash. Absolutely not, because we'll end up chasing each other around in cyber-circles. Especially after you said, " The current harvest is designed to either keep the herd stable or decrease it so it's not a matter of unsuccessful folks moving to a better location because in the end the same number of deer will be harvested." I'll pull out my sarcastic crystal ball here and point out that you used the above statement to try and prove your point. And that's fine except for the fact that you NEVER believe a word the PGC states, says, prints or publishes but will use it( "designed to either keep the herd stable or decrease it") to fit the scenario/agenda. You gave your opinion, as did I(Hogwash). That's why your hunting area is posted, so you can control the supply for yourselves. No, our hunting area is posted NOT because of US but because of ... 1) Some idiot deciding(when it was not posted) it was safe to shoot towards the landowners garage thus ventilating the dwelling with a huge hole thru the frame of his garage door. 2) A different idiot that was granted permission to hunt thought that PA Game Laws were not intended for him and decided to shoot 2 bucks within minutes of each other...while the landowner was watching. And some wonder why they have nowhere to hunt.  It wasn't about us, or I should say, it wasn't about 'just' the landowner. And because of the slob hunters, it is now about the deer. We are only talking about 200 acres of huntable ground here, btw. If you think it's about some kind of "1000 acre-private preserve-type" area here, well, you can throw that into your pile of judgements with many of the others. NOONE is gonna successfully manage 200 acres unless the neighbors do the same. It's just too small. Ironhed
post edited by Ironhed - 2010/12/28 01:08:30
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Ironhed
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RE: Out of hand...
2010/12/28 01:10:13
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ORIGINAL: Outdoor Adventures
How wrong you are! Many I know have contacted the state reps and sent numerous letters explaining their views. This is the only way to be heard.Instead of using the word "whining" you could of said they do not agree. Disagreeing and whining are not the same. Maybe to you it is !
ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
No- what they do is work to change it, and that includes pointing out the errors, misleading statements, etc on venues like this to garner support to change, and it is working
NO.. what they do is post and post and post with the same old stuff convincing no one of anything.... thus what I call "whining"..... there would be NO discussions if those of us with opposing opinions... pointing out the errors, misleading statements, etc ...
would stop posting the "other side of the story".... thus the " deer wars".. nickname..
I have yet to see on ANY message board someone say that discussions on DMP on message boards like these have changed anyone's mind... they simply support the opinions most already have about the PGC or the DMP...
just soemthing to pass the time when not hunting or fishing....
the majority on either side are NOT going to write to anyone, call anyone, or research anything on their own,.. they will believe what they want to believe and argue with those opposing that opinion.... it's been that way since deer hunting became what is probably the #1 sport in Pa .....
Ahem...he did say majority, not all. Ironhed
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S-10
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RE: Out of hand...
2010/12/28 06:54:38
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NO.. what they do is post and post and post with the same old stuff convincing no one of anything Not according to the AUDIT---They stated the the unrentling opposition to herd reduction took the PGC by surprise. The PGC thought that after a year or so people would move on and they could continue to do what they and the Audubon wanted. This solid opposition has forced the PGC to rethink some of their actions, especially since many of their claims have proved false and there are a large number of us who are willing to point them out to anyone who will listen. Doc and the PGC hoped they could get away with some of the bogus claims they made but it ain't going to happen
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DarDys
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RE: Out of hand...
2010/12/28 08:26:32
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"I have yet to see on ANY message board someone say that discussions on DMP on message boards like these have changed anyone's mind... they simply support the opinions most already have about the PGC or the DMP..."
You do realize that there are more people viewing this discussion in a single day than attend all of your sportsman's club meetings in an entire year don't you? Why do you think that candidates for election air TV ads and have web sites? Could it be that they reach more people than they could by meeting with them in person? Could it be to reach those that are "casual" voters?
If you do not think that the internet changes people's minds, then I now understnad why you blindly follow the PGC no matter where they lead.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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deerfly 
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RE: Out of hand...
2010/12/28 08:38:00
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ORIGINAL: retired guy
Hey Deerfly--
 Where I live it is more common than not to have to hunt small parcels surrounded by development. I live in one of the most populated cities in the entire US. and I get a deer or two each year.
 No I do not have the luxory of walking for miles on big parcels of land but must sit tight all day or become an accomplished still hunter in a manner not usually seen in big parcels. --try still hunting 20 acres for a day.
 We pick our shots VERY carefully and often must pass for another day .. Its a part of the hunt to be VERY accurate and selective with shots and develops a very different kind of hunting experience. Not a bad experience -but a different one with a great sense of accomplishment. We usually only hear ONE shot in the distance with an occasional second a few minutes later-Not bang bang bang- evreyone knows that stuff with kill the golden goose. Im still on a box of shells I bought about 8 years ago.
Hunting is Hunting---we only have many more self imposed rules of engagement-actually its kind of neat- if you are up to the challenge.
Try it yourself first and then introduce your niece to it- you may be surprised.
If that is the type of hunting you enjoy, more power to you and I wish there were more hunters like you to control the herd in urban and suburban areas. But I have a bad back and sitting on a stand for hours on end would be pure torture, especially since I wouldn't enjoy that type of hunt even if I didn't have a back problem. If I have to hunt in a manner that is not enjoyable in order to get a deer, that is when I will quit.
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deerfly
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RE: Out of hand...
2010/12/28 08:46:05
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I have yet to see on ANY message board someone say that discussions on DMP on message boards like these have changed anyone's mind... they simply support the opinions most already have about the PGC or the DMP...
But these discussions on the MB has changed how the PGC and DCNR presents or with holds their data and the Deer Chronicles" are a prime example and the DCNR, Browsing Inventory is another prime example. Another great example is the PGC reporting WMU deer densities changes in terms of "lambda" instead of straight percentages. In all the reading I have done on deer management I haven't seen any other state present population changes in terms of ,lambda. On a more personal note I have received numerous PMs from guys who once supported the DMP who are now strong opponents.Also, I see that more and more opponents are supporting there opposition based on PGC data and that wouldn't be happening without the MBs.
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S-10
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RE: Out of hand...
2010/12/28 09:04:40
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NOONE is gonna successfully manage 200 acres unless the neighbors do the same. It's just too small. However you want to spin the reason, the fact remains your area is posted, you control the deer numbers, and you have way more deer than the PGC says you should. As I said before, enjoy it while it lasts but don't think your situation is even close to what most folks have to contend with.
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Ironhed
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RE: Out of hand...
2010/12/28 12:47:07
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However you want to spin the reason, the fact remains your area is posted, you control the deer numbers, and you have way more deer than the PGC says you should. As I said before, enjoy it while it lasts but don't think your situation is even close to what most folks have to contend with. LOL, there's no spinning, man! It's IMPOSSIBLE to control the deer numbers on a piece of ground as small as this. They're just small woodlots surrounded by ag fields. Thanks for the advice.  We do enjoy it. And if it ever dries up, we'll find another. Ironhed
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Out of hand...
2010/12/28 13:47:03
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I did NOT say message board do not effect one's opinion... what I said was no one comes on a board and writes that because so and so said such and such I now change my mind... I too get PMs and E-mails supporting my position and opinions... so that proves nothing... other than many folks who have opinions do NOT share them on message boards for all to see and challenge.. message boards and what is posted there do not necessarily reflect the majority's of hunters opinion... just what those that post think... it's important to remember that.. there's always that silent majority out there ... as I have said before there are thousands of members here and MAYBE 100 have shared their opinions on the PGC or the DMP ... so none of us have a true sense of what the majority of ALL the members here think... just what those that post think... and I see no one stating our discusssions have changed their minds...
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2010/12/28 13:48:31
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DarDys
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RE: Out of hand...
2010/12/28 15:08:13
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"what I said was no one comes on a board and writes that because so and so said such and such I now change my mind.."
So I take it that once someone expresses their opinion at your sportsman's club meeting everyone that was listening immediately stands up and says whether or not they have changed their mind. I doubt that. Same here. Many read, few express their opinion. Some get their opinion changed. Most will keep it to themselves because to not do so, especially in the face of overwhelming evidence, they find it difficult to admit they were wrong. Teh differenc eis that your meeting reaches a 100 or so and this board and others like it reach 10's of thousands.
post edited by DarDys - 2010/12/28 15:09:27
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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deerfly
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RE: Out of hand...
2010/12/28 15:46:04
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I too get PMs and E-mails supporting my position and opinions... so that proves nothing... other than many folks who have opinions do NOT share them on message boards for all to see and challenge.. message boards and what is posted there do not necessarily reflect the majority's of hunters opinion... just what those that post think... it's important to remember that.. there's always that silent majority out there ...
I wasn't talking about PMs supporting my position, I was talking about PMs from guys who said they changed their opinion based on the facts and stats I posted.. Many people believed the PGC propaganda on ARs until they see the harvest data. I have also seen guys change their position and post it on the MBs. Even Roosterbuster changed his views once his kids started hunting and dutch doesn't support the PGC like he once did.
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retired guy
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RE: Out of hand...
2010/12/30 23:14:01
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Hey Deerfly- That kind of hunting isnt necessarily what I would prefer but rather what I'm stuck with close to home-so gotta make it work-It does produce deer though. When I was a very lot younger I used to hunt around Sugar Grove in Warren County PA ( dad was from there) and it was great. Lots of deer and you could walk wherever you wanted. Same over by Jamestown Ny _(just over the border) Used to go for 2 weeks and hunt both states. Its the last day for the year with muzzel-had 10 does and young walk past me about 2:30- not one darn horn in the herd- they were all legal but----- I guess Im getting old and soft.
post edited by retired guy - 2010/12/31 15:50:51
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