Porktown
Did they leave the river tagged as trout approved too?

Yup. It still gets stocked, but now has one less stocking, and the overall numbers of fish stocked seems to be decreasing too....as with many waters throughout the state.

It used to be one of those "Early Season Trout Stocked Waters" or whatever it was called. Now it's part of the "Year Round Approved Trout Stocked Waters." and isn't stocked in the winter any more

troutguy

the overall numbers of fish stocked seems to be decreasing too....as with many waters throughout the state.

Do you know why that is?

You are correct that the money is lacking. 
 
You are also correct that they choose to stock creeks that shouldn't be stocked for multiple reasons.  One of the biggest problems is that opening day roper em & smoke em mentality of many of PA's trout fishermen.  I get a laugh when I meet guys from other states, & I've met a lot/fished with a lot, Arkansas next week... But they think PA trout fishermen are a bunch of idiots crammed around a dried up pool drowning corn for 10" pellet heads.  And in a sense they are right, the PFBC built that stereotype.  While it's not totally correct, they are still pushing it for some reason.

Unless something has changed that I'm not aware of, in the last few years, the biggest problem is the deterioration of the hatcheries.  That's the "money is lacking" part.  They have had to close, I believe more than one, in the last 10 years, Big Spring & Bellefonte because the water treatment systems at the bottom end of the hatcheries were beyond repair.  Those hatcheries were massive polluters that the DEP came down on the PFBC over, as they should have.  That is DEP's job.  Wastewater treatment systems are expensive.  There are other hatcheries in violation currently.  If they don't fix the treatment up in those they will also be forced to shut down.  The way the PFBC is currently dealing with attempting to lessen the effluent violations at each hatchery, I believe, is by raising less fish (trout, or whatever) so that the effluent is not as dirty.  They literally need many millions of dollars to fix the treatment plants.

Completely forgot about the hatchery conditions. Interesting stuff. Also, diseases within the hatcheries that is limiting the number of fish that could be raised. Whether it be the cost to fix the treatment systems or the cost of raising trout, money is the primary issue.

D-Nymph I was just researching an article written in PA Outdoors pertaining to that very subject.  Do to oldtimers disease I can't remember the exact year the "too much fish poop in the water" stories started hitting the press.   I don't have the exact numbers but I recall the article saying a lot of trout would now need be purchased from "out of state" hatcheries and/or "swapping" of fishes to continue the trout stocking program.
 
I should also like to mention the stories that hit magazines like PA Outdoors pertaining to the devastating pollution destroying the Susquehanna River.  That situation became the "pet project" of John Arway right after he was railroaded into office.  Must be a expensive undertaking cleaning up that river, EPA saw no need to deal with it.

BeenThereDoneThat.
D-Nymph I was just researching an article written in PA Outdoors pertaining to that very subject.  Do to oldtimers disease I can't remember the exact year the "too much fish poop in the water" stories started hitting the press.

 
10 years ago with Big Spring.  There were posts here about it 5 years ago.  Since then Bellefonte has closed.  I've not been able to locate the list of PA's polluting hatcheries, I saw it once & now can't find it.

I recall a new technology with construction of rearing tanks, something to do with being cylindrical forming a funnel at the bottom allowing for removal of fish waste and better control of water temperature as well as aeration and, I'm thinking Bellefonte would be the recipient to test this, then, new technology.  The new tanks would also make it easier to  control secondary problems like predation from birds and animals  and, would require far less space.  Again if I'm not mistaken, all this was to transpire just around the time a new hotel/lodge popped out of the wood work to be built atop Bald Eagle Mountain.  Once again, can't quite remember whose baby the lodge was, PGC or PFBC.

FishinGuy
Here's an idea. Ditch the trout stamp, raise the license fees, but add a walleye stamp! I feel more serious fisherman target walleye than trout, and they (we) would be much more receptive to paying a premium for more walleye stocking. But, then the panfish guys would complain about having to buy the walleye stamp to fish their favorite crappie lake.

"more serious fisherman target walleye"
 
Jesus.

  Wouldn't be upset, if they ain't made to be there oh well. If the FC would lett Mother Nature do her thing without interference from man (stocking') for a min. ov say even 5 yrs they would have a way better outlook for the future. I can see why the trout r stocked for $$ & the convenance (distance travel/walkin' & for kids) But hey they help fatten the Toothy Critters, Cats, Eyes & Smallies & by mid June feed the Birds, Coon/Skunk & so forth so very little is wasted. Just that Increase in lice could back fire on 'em, the guy/gal that might not even get out or fish once/twice yr. that would ov purchased regardless (way more than u think)
 
 I could care less what they do I'm happy with what God has to offer fishin' in PA without havin' artificial fish introduced. Spoiledhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDbeopynlrE
 
 The bad part is they close down very good fishin' waters (Native Fish) 
 for over a month when fishermen had enough ov cabin feaver & might not have enough time to travel after work before darkness sets in. I'm lucky enough to be in walkin' dist. ov Arthur but still shut down ov good moving waters that hold nice resident wild fish. Can't see how the F&BC can set closed fishin' on water they don't own over fish that do not belong in the first place. Prob. would not hold up at a JP.  Time for a Kool Aid 
  
 
crappy

troutguy

BeenThereDoneThat.Did they put special trout restrictions and close it to other fishing from April to June unless, ya had a trout stamp?

And of course it is now closed to fishing from March 1st until opening day.

This is one of the things I hate about opening day. The majority of the creeks are void of any trout by November the same year they were stocked and they don't stock for the current year until early April so why close creeks for the entire month of March?! I have to miss the first half of the spring Sucker run every year because I can't fish in my creek for an entire month even though there's no precious stockies to protect yet of which 3/4-4/5 are killed as soon as caught in 8-12 hours on opening day. I will admit to fishing opening day every year but I release all of the fish I catch so that I can catch them the next couple months as well, unlike 95% of guys fishing the same holes as I am that rope their 5 fish in one or two hours then are done fishing for the year. I honestly wouldn't mind if they cut all unnecessary trout stocking (stop stocking Bows and Browns and work on restoring wild Brook populations where they were historically found) for good and focused more on stream/water improvement as well as the native species that can be found in local creeks like Brook Trout, resident Smallmouth Bass, and Suckers.

Here's what I'd like to see out of the PFBC:
-Creeks only closed April 1-Opening Day, not all of March for no reason
-Less stocking of non-native trout that will only live 1-2 months even if not caught and are roped immediately if they are
-No stocking of Trout in lakes where they will die in 3 weeks and cause year-round fishermen to have to buy a trout stamp
-Restoration of native trout populations (Brooks and Lakes)
-More habitat/stream/water quality improvement projects
-More emphasis on the sport value of native species whether Suckers and Smallies in streams, Gar and Drum in Lakes, etc
-More stamps for different species of which funds go directly to projects for that species

Divemaster
unlike 95% of guys fishing the same holes as I am that rope their 5 fish in one or two hours then are done fishing for the year. 

You mean, done fishing that creek for the morning.  Move onto a different creek and rope up 5 more in the afternoon.  Repeat for 2-3 weekends, then done for the year.  Or, are those just the "serious" trout fishermen?

Hate to piggy back off of you guys, but this is exactly the kind of stuff that I have been trying to get people to look into with the musky stocking program. Muskies Inc released their list of the Top 20 Musky Lakes in North America which included Alum Creek Lake, Leesville Lake, Piedmont Lake, and West Branch Reservoir in Ohio.  Not one Pennsylvania water was mentioned.  That's pretty sad news when you consider Pennsylvania raises and stocks ten times the number of muskies per year (average from 2000-2015). It's pretty evident why, Pennsylvania also stocks 8 times the water.  The sad part is documented in their own writings... "The Muskellunge Management Work Group also recommended that the PFBC change its philosophical approach to muskellunge management. Specifically, it was recommended that the PFBC muskellunge management move towards creating high-quality fisheries where anglers wishing to target muskellunge can expect a reasonable opportunity to catch muskellunge and move away from developing low-density populations that create an opportunity for a “once in a lifetime” catch. This philosophy requires fisheries managers to remove waters not suitable to this management objective from the stocking program (Lorantas et al. 2005). Subsequently, the hatchery-reared muskellunge previously placed in these less suitable waters would be available to increase stocking rates on waters, where increased survival and density could be safely increased."
 
This is the number of waterways stocked by county/by state of both pure and tiger muskies:  
 
 
And this shows the average catch per angler hour at .0001-.0007 in lakes, but the average number to keep stocking these waterways on page 39 mentions.."A benchmark angler catch-rate of 0.001/hr is recommended based on past angler catch information generated from angler use and harvest information."  


You would hope that this isn't just a typographical error by the commission that was reviewed by hundreds of people and never caught...

^^^^^^^^^ But just what is something worthwhile catching?

During my bass tournament days, if it wasn't a weighable bass, it wasn't worthwhile catching and toothy critters like musky were the worst because they took too long to land and busted up gear requiring rerigging.

During my wild trout days, crawling around on my belly like a snake, if it wasn't a brook trout, it wasn't worthwhile catching and stocked trout were the worst because they ate the brook trout.

During my Fisherman's Paradise days, stocked leftover breeders were the ticket and wild Spring Creek Browns were the worst because I fished streamers bigger than that.

During my Little Juniata dry fly days, anything other than a stream reared rising brown was worthless, even the football shaped rainbows that migrated from private waters that were twice as big.

I haven't fished for crappies or other panfish since I was old enough to tie on my own hooks, so I find them worthless. Yet there are many on these boards that have them as their primary target.

I did one walleye charter and we were limited out before lunch. I didn't get much out of sitting on a cooler until a rigger popped only to reel in a fish that fought like a wet newspaper. But my wife loves to eat them, so to her, that was great. I don't eat them, so they were worthless to me. A lot of people would argue that point.

To some, anything that swims and is dumb enough to eat what they are offering is great. To others, it might be a specific species; specific technique, specific type of water, etc. and everything else is worthless.

And this is the dilemma of the PFBC -- they have to try to make the first day of trout person happy; the walleye troller happy; the toothy critter caster happy; the catfish bottom baiter happy; the panfish person happy; and so on and so forth. Complicating matters worse is the finite resources to do so. If they do something, particularly stocking to make one group happy, it is at the expense of another group.

I agree with you DarDys, as an agency you can never meet everyone's wants/desires.  It's gotta be tough to plan where to allocate your resources.  But this is their job, and there are area fisheries managers in place to determine whether or not a lake or waterway gets stocked with said species.  Let's look at the PA's Best Fishing Water Program created a few years ago.  "These species-based waters are the result of the Commission's Fisheries Biologists using program criteria to highlight PA's best angling opportunities."  Among the lakes listed for muskellunge is Sugar Lake, a broodstock lake in Crawford County.  This lake gets stocked at a rate of 10 muskies per acre, which is vastly different than the normal 1 per acre of non-broodstock lakes.  Based on the only available Biologist Report in 2007, "the musky fishery seems to be down at this time" and the results showed that with 1 38" musky captured in 12 net sets.  But yet, when they needed to make a list of Best Fishing Waters for muskies and tiger muskies, this lake was included.  

Instead of directing people to waters deemed Best Fishing Waters in the state, create the fishery and let the anglers be drawn by the success of other anglers.  That's the best marketing tool in the game.  Create an online log to track fishermen's success instead of telling people where the best places to go are. 


Fishermen will travel. I do, I know Captain Hook does, and I know that DarDys does.  You don't need to put fish in every little pothole in the state.  If you build it, they will come. 

How about a $ 2.00 scratch off Pa. lottery ticket with all proceeds going to the stocking of inland lakes and rivers throughout Pa. ! I bet they would have a bundle of cash in no time ! I'd buy one every week how about you guys ?