anzomcik

DarDys
Bingo — we have a winner!

If genetics determine an eye color or stature, it doesn’t matter how old that specimen becomes. Same with the recessives for no brow tines.

I’ve had some of these four on camera and in person for five years. All they are is taller, wider, and heavier — but still not legal — never were, never will be. And each time they produce an offspring, the more likely that gene carries forward. And the more of those cohorts in the population, the more likely they are to produce offspring.

 
Ok i want to get this strait. Are you saying you have 6.5 YO 4 point bucks? (5 year experience, doesn't grow its first rack until age 1)
 
Do you believe this is only a trait unique to your area?
 
If you could post these photos I would love to see them

Yeah, that’s what I’m saying.

I can probably point to the doe that is responsible as well. We observed her three years in a row with triplet bucks. Didn’t see her last year or this year.

it sounds like this is unique to your localized area? Studies have show it is impossible to remove genes from the pool by hunting, because the dispersal rate of BB is 1-10 miles (carrying there genes with them), to reduce the chance of inbreeding. Are you confident that buck hung around its mother, aunt, sister that much? One also would think that over time some of the traits you observe would be in a state of slow change because new blood enters and exits every year slowly mixing the pool. You feel thats is happening?

anzomcik

BeenThereDoneThat.

However, let me explain. The PGC does not take into consideration the population and age of the hunter. Therefore the AR's do not benefit or work as was blown.

AR's are not working as we were told they would, except in limited specific areas.

Post up a link or study showing what your trying to say, I do not understand what your getting it. I am not saying you do not have a valid point, I am honestly lost at what your referring to.
 
BTW it cant be published from the PGC or Penn State. Years prior you discredited anything published from those two sources. 
 
 
 
 

Dam straight it can't be from the PGC or PENN STATE. You think they would publish data proving ARs are nothing more than smoke and mirrors.

As for the gene pool thingy, I'm sure you'll find info regarding that being part of the smoke blowing. Had something to do with ridding the herd of bad gene's that create those awful scrub bucks.

As for me providing data, typical copout by those who can not accept truth over fiction.

You continue believing what you're told. I'll continue knowing with what I've lived.


The only reason for AR's is to cull bucks from the hunters wallet.👍👍👍

BeenThereDoneThat.

anzomcik

BeenThereDoneThat.

However, let me explain. The PGC does not take into consideration the population and age of the hunter. Therefore the AR's do not benefit or work as was blown.

AR's are not working as we were told they would, except in limited specific areas.

Post up a link or study showing what your trying to say, I do not understand what your getting it. I am not saying you do not have a valid point, I am honestly lost at what your referring to.
 
BTW it cant be published from the PGC or Penn State. Years prior you discredited anything published from those two sources. 
 
 
 
 

Dam straight it can't be from the PGC or PENN STATE. You think they would publish data proving ARs are nothing more than smoke and mirrors.

As for the gene pool thingy, I'm sure you'll find info regarding that being part of the smoke blowing. Had something to do with ridding the herd of bad gene's that create those awful scrub bucks.

As for me providing data, typical copout by those who can not accept truth over fiction.

You continue believing what you're told. I'll continue knowing with what I've lived.

What are you talking about? Cant you provide anything that is even in the ball park of what your trying to say?

Dardys sorry to crash your thread.

But thanks for the chance to air my grievance.

Now, if you will excuse me, I must go punch myself in the ear.🙄

Shot a spike Looongggg ago in the Cats of Ny.
Seemed big for a spike being just under 140.
State guy said it was 3.5 years old.
Small short spikes too.
They shot a lot of mature small horned bucks on that property over the years and then after more than a decade somebody got a decent 8.
Genetics IMHO.

DarDys, We had the same thing with 6pts with no brow tines in the area that I hunted. The first year of a.r. we found 3 of these that were shot & left to rot. Seems like the dominate buck was the same . That is why those deer farms shoot cull bucks ,if a breeder has those tendicies so will most of its male offspring. That was my biggest complaint about A.R. the fact that we were putting more pressure on the biggest bucks instead of improving the herd by removing the scrubs,which is exactly opposite of what all animal breeders do.Also a fact that I seldom see mentioned is that the Does contribute as much to the genetics as the bucks do. So if you are hunting meat & want to improve the herd IMO you should let the big Mammas go.In the area that I used to hunt in Wash. cnty. we saw the average size of most deer decline after they started to issue such insane amount of doe tags.Also the smaller younger deer seemed to suffer from not having the older more experienced mothers to teach them.  sam

anzomcik
it sounds like this is unique to your localized area? Studies have show it is impossible to remove genes from the pool by hunting, because the dispersal rate of BB is 1-10 miles (carrying there genes with them), to reduce the chance of inbreeding. Are you confident that buck hung around its mother, aunt, sister that much? One also would think that over time some of the traits you observe would be in a state of slow change because new blood enters and exits every year slowly mixing the pool. You feel thats is happening?

The problem is that over time the recessive gene bucks, if unharvested, become the bulk of the population. In concert, their genes then become the bulk of genetic material passed on.

The dispersion distance of BB is determined by a lot of factors, not the least of which is do they have anywhere to disperse to or do they have any reason to disperse at all.

Keep in mind that does carry genes too. If they are the offspring of a recessive, their offspring may get that passed along.

Look at the classic fruit fly studies on genetics to be able to construct a probability matrix. The same with any critters.

The more recessive genes, especially from both sexes, the higher the probability it gets passed along. And the more often the “normal” gene isn’t dominate, the less likely it will be.

As for the 4-point thing being localized, probably. But in another area it may be the spike forever gene. Or the broken antler gene. The problem becomes that these recessives are, for the most part, protected, thereby increasing their population and the likelihood they will pass it along.

This is the very reason breeders if anything remove, as quickly as possible, any specimens that exhibit an undesirable trait.

But the PGC knows better than those breeders.

A friend hunts a nearby place here in Ct where he saw a 6 pt last year pre season with one side having up antlers and the other straight down. Base tines unknown but not huge antlers.
Never saw the deer  during the season.
This Summer its back with the very same antler configuration and size.
Sounds exactly like the genetic situation that Dar describes- certainly a cull deer.
 

Anzo I would like to express my regret in that I misread your question in regard to DarDys thread.

I thought you supported the idea of gene control and antler growth, by hunting and hunting alone.

My rant was triggered when I read DarDy's comment saying he would wait for bucks from other areas and the mention of "no youth hunters" hunt those area's.

I understand DarDys would rather have, and enjoy as much, a young hunter take a buck and so would I. But I would enjoy seeing an older hunter take that same buck just as much.

You see, many hunters on this forum have sentimental feelings when a young hunter shoots their first deer and that is just fine in my book.

But those same hunters seem to lose that sentimental feeling if an older hunter would shoot that same deer..... maybe his/her "last" deer.

That same hunter who over the years has, paid for the hunting the youths can enjoy today.

That same hunter whose stories might entice a young person to hunt.

So while we find enjoyment with young hunters being succesful, I also find sadness in seeing more & more older hunters giving up the hunt, not because of age but, because of the BS AR's.

Now, there's a "gene pool" the PGC should be concerned with.

The 'hunting gene' gets passed on less & less everytime an old hunter hangs up his guns.


With that, thanks for trying to understand and sorry I don't have written data reports, as I only have 57 years experience, hunting Penn Wood's.

Special youth regulations do not and are not fair. Hunter populations by age vary greatly across WMU's like 1A.

No way, unless on posted property, does any buck have chance of getting by 2.5 years of age, in areas of Mercer County, PA.

I don't give a chyt what any PennState data study says. In my years of hunting, I've seen far too many bogus data studies.