anzomcik

DarDys
There were four, count them, four, different 4-points — all without brow tines. Good thing AR is improving the herd. These guys, just by sheer numbers, will probably get to pass on that wonderful no brow tines gene since they are safe from being removed from the herd (there are no youth hunters on any of the surrounding properties).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the sarcastic remark about AR improving the herd is then proven correct in theory by the following sentence you wrote?
 
It can be interrupted that "these small bucks will not get shot because they do not meet the minimum, leaving them to live another year" Most cases those small non legals right now will become legal the following year, not all the time, but majority.
 
Isnt that the point of AR?

Beg your pardon Anzo but DarDys also noted "no youth's"...... hello?

No youths is something the PGC does not include in thier studies as evidenced by the deer herds in specific areas.

If the AR's were to truely benefit "all" hunters (as blown up our asz's by the PGC) then the AR's need be written for "all" hunters of "all" ages and just not the specific few, who hunt for the record books.

AR's need include ALL HUNTERS OF ALL AGES...... HELLO?

 
The point your bringing up, really had nothing to do with my above post, not sure where your trying to shoe horn that in at.
 
However if you didn't catch it I will explain it another way. AR are in place to advance the average age of bucks being harvested in the state. So a spike or 4 point at age 1.5 will more than likely will not get harvested by a hunter, giving it an opportunity to live to age 2.5 where typically their rack will meet the state minimum. Now it can be fair game and legally harvested. With more 2.5yo bucks getting shot the average age of harvested bucks will increase compared to years prior to the law. 

The remarks are based on there being a gene pool in this particular area that contains the propensity for throwing no brow tines. I first observed it over 20+ years ago. Then, those deer were legal and often were removed from the herd.

Now, that gene pool is protected, except in the case of junior hunters, and there are none of those that hunt on any of the surrounding properties which in total comprise approximately 1,500 — 2,000 acres. As the number of bucks with this gene increases, which it will, the mathematical odds of it being passed on increases.

Please keep in mind that this isn’t the same as a spike that might grow into something else. Once it has no brow tines (or one brow tine or weak beams that break on one side or the other or any other recessive gene), it does not and cannot grow out of it.

Of course, it may go away in some cases in the off spring if the doe genes prevent it, but with each successive breeding that likelihood goes down.

There is a reason that those that raise any animals for desired traits cull those with recessives.

anzomcik
 
 
Isnt that the point of AR?

The point of AR in our state was to get hunters to shoot more does.  It was the sizzle to sell the steak of herd reduction.  Can't fill your buck tag, but want some venison?  Shoot more does.  It really is that simple.  
 
 
 
 
 

anzomcik
 
The point your bringing up, really had nothing to do with my above post, not sure where your trying to shoe horn that in at.
 
However if you didn't catch it I will explain it another way. AR are in place to advance the average age of bucks being harvested in the state. So a spike or 4 point at age 1.5 will more than likely will not get harvested by a hunter, giving it an opportunity to live to age 2.5 where typically their rack will meet the state minimum. Now it can be fair game and legally harvested. With more 2.5yo bucks getting shot the average age of harvested bucks will increase compared to years prior to the law. 

"IF" that buck lives only where there are "no" youth hunters.

However, let me explain. The PGC does not take into consideration the population and age of the hunter. Therefore the AR's do not benefit or work as was blown.

Dave I agree with your statement and that's exactly what we were told. If you can't shoot a legal buck, shoot a doe. If your're meat eater.... shoot a doe. (a slap in the face to the genuine hunter of the time)

Looks to me, ARs are intended to "force" the hunter to buy more doe tags, for the mere purpose of raising funds.

AR's are not working as we were told they would, except in limited specific areas.

Those areas in my book, were ment to, benefit a specific few record book hunters.

DarDys
The remarks are based on there being a gene pool in this particular area that contains the propensity for throwing no brow tines. I first observed it over 20+ years ago. Then, those deer were legal and often were removed from the herd.

Now, that gene pool is protected, except in the case of junior hunters, and there are none of those that hunt on any of the surrounding properties which in total comprise approximately 1,500 — 2,000 acres. As the number of bucks with this gene increases, which it will, the mathematical odds of it being passed on increases.

Please keep in mind that this isn’t the same as a spike that might grow into something else. Once it has no brow tines (or one brow tine or weak beams that break on one side or the other or any other recessive gene), it does not and cannot grow out of it.

Of course, it may go away in some cases in the off spring if the doe genes prevent it, but with each successive breeding that likelihood goes down.

There is a reason that those that raise any animals for desired traits cull those with recessives.

You have my attention, i am very interested in your observation. I have some questions.
 
So a spike can go into buck with brow tines, but if a 1.5 yo 4 point will never have brow tines as long as it lives? Is that what your saying?  
 
Does a 1.5 yo 4 point ever grow more points? Have you observed in your experience 6 or 8 point bucks with out brow tines at the density you see 4 point bucks? (question is trying to see if the no brow tine trait is still there with the addition of g3,4s in the typical location)
 
Once a 4 point always a 4 point?
 
What age do you feel the 4 buck on camera are?
 
I get several 4 point bucks on camera each year and have noticed what you described.
 

Bingo — we have a winner!

If genetics determine an eye color or stature, it doesn’t matter how old that specimen becomes. Same with the recessives for no brow tines.

I’ve had some of these four on camera and in person for five years. All they are is taller, wider, and heavier — but still not legal — never were, never will be. And each time they produce an offspring, the more likely that gene carries forward. And the more of those cohorts in the population, the more likely they are to produce offspring.

BeenThereDoneThat.

However, let me explain. The PGC does not take into consideration the population and age of the hunter. Therefore the AR's do not benefit or work as was blown.

AR's are not working as we were told they would, except in limited specific areas.

Post up a link or study showing what your trying to say, I do not understand what your getting it. I am not saying you do not have a valid point, I am honestly lost at what your referring to.
 
BTW it cant be published from the PGC or Penn State. Years prior you discredited anything published from those two sources. 
 
 
 
 

DarDys
Bingo — we have a winner!

If genetics determine an eye color or stature, it doesn’t matter how old that specimen becomes. Same with the recessives for no brow tines.

I’ve had some of these four on camera and in person for five years. All they are is taller, wider, and heavier — but still not legal — never were, never will be. And each time they produce an offspring, the more likely that gene carries forward. And the more of those cohorts in the population, the more likely they are to produce offspring.

 
Ok i want to get this strait. Are you saying you have 6.5 YO 4 point bucks? (5 year experience, doesn't grow its first rack until age 1)
 
Do you believe this is only a trait unique to your area?
 
If you could post these photos I would love to see them

anzomcik

DarDys
The remarks are based on there being a gene pool in this particular area that contains the propensity for throwing no brow tines. I first observed it over 20+ years ago. Then, those deer were legal and often were removed from the herd.

Now, that gene pool is protected, except in the case of junior hunters, and there are none of those that hunt on any of the surrounding properties which in total comprise approximately 1,500 — 2,000 acres. As the number of bucks with this gene increases, which it will, the mathematical odds of it being passed on increases.

Please keep in mind that this isn’t the same as a spike that might grow into something else. Once it has no brow tines (or one brow tine or weak beams that break on one side or the other or any other recessive gene), it does not and cannot grow out of it.

Of course, it may go away in some cases in the off spring if the doe genes prevent it, but with each successive breeding that likelihood goes down.

There is a reason that those that raise any animals for desired traits cull those with recessives.

You have my attention, i am very interested in your observation. I have some questions.
 
So a spike can go into buck with brow tines, but if a 1.5 yo 4 point will never have brow tines as long as it lives? Is that what your saying?  
 
Does a 1.5 yo 4 point ever grow more points? Have you observed in your experience 6 or 8 point bucks with out brow tines at the density you see 4 point bucks? (question is trying to see if the no brow tine trait is still there with the addition of g3,4s in the typical location)
 
Once a 4 point always a 4 point?
 
What age do you feel the 4 buck on camera are?
 
I get several 4 point bucks on camera each year and have noticed what you described.
 

Excellent questions.

The spike to something bigger later on is not genetically based, but rather has to do with the maturation process, which may include nutrition, birth order, number of siblings, etc. that has an effect their first set of antlers.

The spike to a spike to a spike is a recessive gene, just like no brow tines. Once no brow tines (excepting if they were broken off), always no brow tines. It’s like your genes being determined to stature — that doesn’t change. If your (and I don’t mean you specifically) genes throughout your parents, grandparents, and great grandparents show no offspring over 6 feet tall, the odds are slim, no matter what you eat, no matter how much you exercise, and no matter how long you live, that you will be 6 feet or taller.

Selective breeding is a mathematical drive science. And the surest way to remove the undesirable trait is to remove the recessive gene by removing the inferior specimens that exhibit that trait. But we do the opposite.

I’ve seen these 4-points be 18” wide and not start to curve until well above the ears. Still no brow tines. Some of these are 5 years old. Of those I mentioned in the initial post, only one is a youngster.

These recessives also throw other undesirable antler qualities as well. When my family hunted deer in a certain section of Clearfield County , we collected over 100 sets of antlers (pre to just after AR). There were four distinct gene pools for antlers.

One broke off right above the G-2 on one side (I don’t recall anymore which side); one broke off right at the head (it was the opposite side of the previous); one was tall and thin; and the last was wide, heavy, at least 8-points (I actually shot a buck in 1986 that was the exact same as one my father shot in 1963 when PA first imported deer from Michigan).