Asian Carp future invaders of the Great Lakes !

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kimish80
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RE: Asian Carp future invaders of the Great Lakes ! 2008/04/06 18:04:35 (permalink)
I think banking the fish is a great Idea.  Think of all the people who come to erie to fish for walleye, perch, steelhead, etc.  Think of all the money those fisherman put into the economy here.  What do you think "poonchucker" if those fish invaded erie?  9 out of 10 fish in that stretch of the illinois were asian carp.  I don't want even 3 out of 10 fish here in erie to be asian carp.  Even getting rid of a few of those fish is better than none. Would you rather have 10 dollars or none? They would demolish the fishery.  Do your research on these fish  "get informed".  From what I understand they reproduce rapidly, compete for food and eat spawn.  To me "poonchucker" it sounds like you don't mind those fish and in retrospect you don't care about our fishery.  I can respect your decision not to break the law but, "he who hath not sinned cast the first stone".  Correct or not spoonchucker?  You dont have to bank these fish, for all I care you can eat them or fish for them yourself, but if you see someone banking these fish that are a threat to our fishery,  please turn the other cheek.  I do agree however on respecting peoples property and I believe one should not bank these fish on other peoples property. 
#31
carpin05
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RE: Asian Carp future invaders of the Great Lakes ! 2008/04/06 18:54:09 (permalink)
coolerfull you are a fool!!!  the carp you are seeing are not asian carp... the comon,grass,buffalo,carp do have a place in a lake large or small..
you throw all the carp on the bank and befor long the lake will be so choked up nothing will live...
they keep a lake clean....
 
FOOL!!!!
#32
kimish80
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RE: Asian Carp future invaders of the Great Lakes ! 2008/04/06 18:59:20 (permalink)
carpin05,  I believe we were talking about banking the asian carp.  FOOL!!!!! I also think the fisheries biologist working along the illinois river know the difference between the carp species.  After all the army corps of engineers wouldn't put an electric fence in a river to keep fish from entering a watershed where they already abound ie common carp, buffalo etc.  as poonchucker would say "get informed"
#33
Stillhead
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RE: Asian Carp future invaders of the Great Lakes ! 2008/04/06 19:23:49 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: kimish80

carpin05,  I believe we were talking about banking the asian carp.  FOOL!!!!! I also think the fisheries biologist working along the illinois river know the difference between the carp species.  After all the army corps of engineers wouldn't put an electric fence in a river to keep fish from entering a watershed where they already abound ie common carp, buffalo etc.  as poonchucker would say "get informed"


Actually, no he wasn't talking about asian carp. Read his first post below, which is the post "poonchucker" as you call him (we like to call him old duud here on fisherie) was objecting too.

Coolerfull1 first post

"Can you imagine how many "good fishing spots" these things have ruined for people.  I can.  They might not be asian carp, but I can think of a few places I used to like to fish that have become infested with carp and have ruined the other fishing.  No doubt that carp go on a frenzy with their rubber lips to the bottom sucking all the spawn from other fish.  For some reason, ever since I was a kid, I always had the urge to throw them up on the bank when I caught them instead of returning them to the water.  Would anybody support a thread on here for killing/banking every carp they caught this year, no matter where or how many?  They would just serve as food for a bird or some animal anyhow.  Let me know and we'll get it going. "

I won't disagree that we could do with less of all the carp species, they're not native here and I'm sure they do have an effect on other fish.  But to say  the common carp has totally ruined fishing seems to be a bit of a stretch to me.
 
 
If you're trying to "get informed" you should read more carefully.
post edited by Stillhead - 2008/04/06 19:24:39
#34
coolerfull1
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RE: Asian Carp future invaders of the Great Lakes ! 2008/04/06 19:25:02 (permalink)
Hey carpin05, calm down, take a deep breath.  Without me going back (like you should) and re-reading this post, I'll bet this is nowhere that I referred to the carp around here as asian carp.  I believe somewhere in there I even mentioned that carp have a purpose.  Like it or not, they have the potential to overrun and ruin places.  Now, go get your bucket of poop and used tampons and go fish for them and throw them all into the weeds behind you.  You should have called me COOLERFOOL, but I realize you are a carp fisherman.
#35
Kokanee Killer
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RE: Asian Carp future invaders of the Great Lakes ! 2008/04/06 19:36:46 (permalink)
esox hunter i like your answer,i kinda feel the same way.

I have become comfortably numb
#36
Stillhead
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RE: Asian Carp future invaders of the Great Lakes ! 2008/04/06 19:48:18 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: spoonchucker

"why do they stock fry instead of eggs?"

Come on, be serious. You type, and spell too well to be THAT stupid. 



They don't stock eggs because the eggs would not hatch in most places due to water quality/content, not because they are being eaten by carp.
 
 
 
Where are these lakes/rivers at that you believe have been ruined by carp? Common carp that is, not these new carp headed our way.
post edited by Stillhead - 2008/04/06 19:49:52
#37
coolerfull1
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RE: Asian Carp future invaders of the Great Lakes ! 2008/04/06 20:10:23 (permalink)
To stillhead and kokanee killer, don't take this as a personal attack, but you guys just wore me out.  I have this thing called common sense and a way of putting things into context that apparently is my downfall.
#38
Stillhead
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RE: Asian Carp future invaders of the Great Lakes ! 2008/04/06 20:19:26 (permalink)
Your downfall is you get all worked up over nothing.  Again, where are these fisheries that are ruined?  And also again,  I do agree that even the common carp are out of control and could use some thinning out.   Just not by tossing them on the bank.
#39
kimish80
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RE: Asian Carp future invaders of the Great Lakes ! 2008/04/06 20:26:16 (permalink)
carp aren't that big of a deal,  we've dealt with them for decades without a huge or negative impact on our fishery.  It's the "flying" carp that worry myself and others.  Carp are a great gamefish.  In fact,  they are the most popular game fish in europe.  These "flying" carp are a different story than the traditional carp we are used to around here.  I saw an interesting show on the National Geographic channel and they showed the "flying" carp and talked about it. It was very interesting and disturbing.  They are a carp but are different than the carp we have around here now.  Im just worried that if these fish get into our watershed it would be very costly to our fishery and our economy.  And last I checked,  our economy around here isn't in good shape.  (THANKS G.W.BUSH AND ALL THE F@#@*@ A@# H&*)S THAT VOTED FOR HIM!)  And to spoon chucker,  let me apologize for my negativity towards you. that wasn't very christian of me. sorry.
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kimish80
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RE: Asian Carp future invaders of the Great Lakes ! 2008/04/06 20:30:46 (permalink)
Stillhead,  than what do we do with these fish?  Fisheries biologist around the country would love to hear what ideas you have. "Banking" them to me is the best option.  That doesn't mean we have to leave them along the stream banks or on the shores of a lake.  Take them,  throw them in a garbage can (away from residential areas)or anywhere else where it wouldn't be a nuisance.  I'm sure the coons would appreciate a good free meal.
#41
Stillhead
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RE: Asian Carp future invaders of the Great Lakes ! 2008/04/06 20:52:42 (permalink)
I don't know,   I assume when you asked me the question "what do we do with these fish",  the "fish" you are asking about are the Asian carp(flying as you called them).    I understand the title of this thread is "Asian carp invaders of the great lakes", but do you understand that the thread was hijacked/turned into a discussion on whether or not it is a good idea to throw the common carp we have here in Pennsylvania now, onto the bank when we catch them?  That seems to be what's causing your confusion. We could all go out tomorrow, catch 50 carp each and toss them on the bank, and the only thing it would accomplish is make a mess, angry those who live nearby, and cost those who did it in front of law enforcement a fine.  That was the point Spoonchucker was trying to make before the two of you went ranting.

Now, if you catch an Asian carp tomorrow, bonk it on the head and call the fish commission.
post edited by Stillhead - 2008/04/06 20:54:45
#42
pghmarty
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RE: Asian Carp future invaders of the Great Lakes ! 2008/04/06 21:25:44 (permalink)
Bighead and silver carp are collectively known as Asian carp.
These fish are very large, reaching up to 90 pounds.
Because Asian carp are filter-feeders, scientists are concerned that the massive fish may deplete the Great Lake zooplankton populations.
Zooplankton is the main food source for many native species, including mussels, larval fish, and some adult fish.
The Asian carp’s niche may also overlap with salmon and perch, species with high recreational and commercial value, and may out-compete these species and endanger the fishery
 


post edited by pghmarty - 2008/04/06 21:28:50
#43
FiveMilePete
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RE: Asian Carp future invaders of the Great Lakes ! 2008/04/06 22:10:14 (permalink)
That would cost you quite a lot of money. Improper disposition of fish,
multiple counts, and littering. But, smart guy like you, you're probably rich, and can afford the big fine.
#44
spoonchucker
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RE: Asian Carp future invaders of the Great Lakes ! 2008/04/06 23:35:44 (permalink)
I was indeed refering to common, grass Carp, although the same would apply to the other.
 
I don't give a fat rat, if you take every Carp ( of any species ) you catch home, and bury them in your garden, feed them to the dogs, hogs, goats, whatever, or if you and your wife use them for sex toys. Not that it would have ANY impcat on populations, but if it tickles your nuts, knock yourselves out. Just PLEASE do not advocate tossing them on the bank, and expect, and ACCEPT a fine if you are caught doing it.

Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

Step Up, or Step Aside


The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody.

GL
#45
MuskyMastr
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RE: Asian Carp future invaders of the Great Lakes ! 2008/04/07 00:28:38 (permalink)
If you think that the Common Carp has had little to no effect on our fisheries you are sorely mistaken.  Here are some excerpts from the USGS and other sources Regarding this invasive/non-native species.....
 
"
Examples of restored systems affected by common carp include Swan Lake located in Carroll County, Iowa.  The shallow manmade lake was restored in 1982 as part of the U.S. EPA Clean Lakes Program.  Swan Lake was deepened, an aeration system was installed to prevent winterkills, two new water sources were added to maintain the water level, and it was chemically treated with rotenone to remove all existing fish for subsequent restocking.  Carp entered the lake between June 1990 and July 1993 when the lake overflowed and carp adults were able to jump from a stilling basin into the lake.  The carp population increased from 27 kg/ha in 1990 to 230 kg/ha by 1996.  Micropterus salmoides (largemouth bass) and Lepomis macrochirus (bluegill) standing stock decreased significantly over that same period (Hill 1999)."
 
Introduction of common carp into U.S. waters has proven to be a nuisance to fishery managers because of its negative effects on native fish, ecosystems, and water quality in wetlands and lakes (Hill 1999).  Deterioration of wetland water quality reduces aquatic vegetation, which waterfowl rely on during migration.  The impact on waterfowl is evident in Minnesota where duck populations have declined despite national high populations in the past two years.  The deteriorating habitat of wetlands and shallow lakes is due in part to the proliferation of carp that have spread through ditches and channels.  Recent mild winters have perpetuated the problem by preventing shallow waters from freezing deep enough to kill undesirable fish (Smith 2000).
Cyprinus carpio   Linnaeus 1758
Common Name: common carp
Synonyms and Other Names: German carp, European carp, mirror carp, leather carp, koi
Taxonomy: available through
Identification:
Wheeler (1978); Becker (1983); Page and Burr (1991); Etnier and Starnes (1993); Jenkins and Burkhead (1994); Balon (1995). In Eurasia there are two poorly defined subspecies C. c. carpio and C. c. haematopterus; unfortunately, feral common carp, descendants of earlier escapees or introductions, have greatly confused the picture (Balon 1995). Several genetic strains, some bred in aquaculture or used as ornamentals (e.g., leather carp, mirror carp, Israeli carp, koi, are recognized by some as separate varieties (Robison and Buchanan 1988; Balon 1995).
Size: 122 cm.
Native Range:
Eurasia (Page and Burr 1991; Balon 1995). Balon (1995) found that Cyprinus carpio evolved in the Caspian Sea, then migrated naturally to the Black and Aral Seas, east to eastern mainland Asia and west as far as the Danube River.
Ecology:
The species generally inhabits lakes, ponds, and the lower sections of rivers (usually with moderately flowing or standing water), but is also known from brackish-water estuaries, backwaters, and bays (Barus et al. 2001). In its native range, the species occurs in coastal areas of the Caspian and Aral Seas (Berg 1964; Barus et al., 2001) as well as the estuaries of large Ukrainian and Russian rivers. Crivelli (1981) reported that the common carp occurred in brackish-water marshes with salinities up to 14 ppt in southern France. In North America, the common carp inhabits brackish and saline coastal waters of several states bordering the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans and Gulf of Mexico (Schwartz 1964; Moyle 2002) as well as the Atlantic and Pacific coasts of Canada (McCrimmon 1968). It has been captured in U.S. waters with salinities as high as 17.6 ppt (Schwartz 1964). In the U.S., the common carp is more abundant in manmade impoundments, lakes, and turbid sluggish streams receiving sewage or agricultural runoff, and less abundant in clear waters or streams with a high gradient (Pflieger 1975; Trautman 1981; Ross 2001; Boschung and Mayden 2004). Pflieger (1975) noted that the common carp tends to concentrate in large numbers where cannery or slaughter-house wastes are emptied into streams.
Larval common carp feed primarily on zooplankton. In its native range, juveniles and adults feed on benthic organisms (e.g., chironomids, gastropods and other larval insects), vegetation, detritus and plankton (e.g., cladocerans, copepods, amphipods, mysids). Feeding habits are similar in the U.S., where the diet is composed of organic detritus (primarily of plant origin), chironomids, small crustaceans, and gastropods (Summerfelt et al. 1971; Eder and Carlson 1977; Panek 1987). The common carp is very active when feeding and its movements often disturb sediments and increase turbidity, causing serious problems in some regions especially where the species is abundant. The species also retards the growth of submerged aquatic vegetation by feeding on and uprooting plants (King and Hunt 1967). Silt resuspension and uprooting of aquatic plants caused by feeding activities can disturb spawning and nursery areas of native fishes (Ross 2001) as well as disrupt feeding of sight-oriented predators, such as bass and sunfish (Panek 1987).
Impact of Introduction:
The common carp is regarded as a pest fish because of its widespread abundance and because of its tendency to destroy vegetation and increase water turbidity by dislodging plants and rooting around in the substrate, causing a deterioration of habitat for species requiring vegetation and clean water (Cole 1905; Cahoon 1953; Bellrichard 1996; Laird and Page 1996). Available literature indicates common carp may destroy aquatic macrophytes directly by uprooting or consuming the plants, or indirectly by increasing turbidity and thereby reducing light for photosynthesis. Bellrichard (1996) found that alterations in macrophyte biomass are due more to direct effects of common carp. In their review of the literature, Richardson et al. (1995) concluded that common carp has had noted adverse effects on biological systems including destruction of vegetated breeding habitats used by both fish and birds, and an increase in turbidity. It stirs up the bottom during feeding, resulting in increased siltation and turbidity (Lee et al. 1980 et seq.). This feeding behavior also destroys rooted aquatic plants that provide habitat for native fish species and food for waterfowl (Dentler 1993). There is also evidence that common carp prey on the eggs of other fish species (Moyle 1976a; Taylor et al. 1984; Miller and Beckman 1996). For this reason, it may be responsible for the decline of the razorback sucker Xyrauchen texanus in the Colorado River basin (Taylor et al. 1984). In another case, Miller and Beckman (1996) documented white sturgeon Acipenser transmontanus eggs in the stomachs of common carp in the Columbia River. In California, carp have been implicated in the decrease in water clarity in Clear Lake, Lake County, and in the gradual disappearance of native fishes (Moyle 1976a). McCarraher and Gregory (1970) wrote that in 1894 there was documentation that Sacramento perch Archoplites interruptus were becoming more scare because carp were destroying their spawning grounds. Laird and Page (1996) stated that common carp may compete with ecologically similar species such as carpsuckers and buffalos. Because this species has been present in many areas since the first surveys, its impacts on many of the native fishes are difficult to determine. Once established in a water body, common carp are difficult and expensive to eliminate (e.g., Cahoon 1953)."
 
http://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/FactSheet.asp?speciesID=4
 
http://horticulture.cfans.umn.edu/vd/h5015/00papers/baldry.htm
 
The research is neverending and conclusive....CARP SUCK and are bad for our fisheries...ALL CARP!

Better too far back, than too far forward.
#46
Brad1
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RE: Asian Carp future invaders of the Great Lakes ! 2008/04/07 02:54:24 (permalink)
In the u-tube video that CAPTAINHOOK provided the link for, the one gentleman mentioned some concerns about the electric fence that's in place to keep the asian carp out of the great lakes (for example, a power outage). I think the appropriate course of action is to do everything possible to contain these fish. Perhaps in the case of the electric fence, implement back up generators. Maybe install a 2nd fence just a slight distance up river. Maybe install fences elsewhere to try to contain the asian carp. Maybe invest in some research to try to find a chemical that could be placed into the water to target this species (I'm not a biologist or scientist, so perhaps that idea's a little far fetched). I don't know exactly what's in order, but the point I'm trying to make is that maybe we should all start contacting some folks (Senators, Congressmen, whoever), to step up the effort to do something about these fish.
#47
krott243
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RE: Asian Carp future invaders of the Great Lakes ! 2008/04/07 10:07:57 (permalink)
There are some monster asian carp in PI, we shot 5 or 6 in the 40lb range last year.  The more there is, the more I'll shoot.  Throwing them on the bank is illegal, and I hope who does it, gets caught.

The Lord has blessed us all today... It's just that he has been particularly good to me.
#48
Finster
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RE: Asian Carp future invaders of the Great Lakes ! 2008/04/07 11:40:33 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: kimish80

  Im just worried that if these fish get into our watershed it would be very costly to our fishery and our economy.  And last I checked,  our economy around here isn't in good shape.  (THANKS G.W.BUSH AND ALL THE F@#@*@ A@# H&*)S THAT VOTED FOR HIM!)  And to spoon chucker,  let me apologize for my negativity towards you. that wasn't very christian of me. sorry.

 
Kimish80,
            Just a little advice. You should just let people think your a moron rather than open your mouth and remove all doubt!
#49
kimish80
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RE: Asian Carp future invaders of the Great Lakes ! 2008/04/07 11:42:36 (permalink)
I'm down for anything to protect our fisheries.  I would not throw the fish on the bank however.  Notice I used "" when I use the word bank in my posts.  I may just give them to poonchucker for his sex toys or butt plugs or use them for fertilizer in poonchuckers cannabis garden.  I am against littering hence the parentheses when using the word "banking".  Get rid of these fish if they are here or when they get here.  THAT IS MY POINT.  The fisheries may not be as important to some of you as it is to me. 
#50
Finster
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RE: Asian Carp future invaders of the Great Lakes ! 2008/04/07 11:46:46 (permalink)
I rest my case.
#51
Deadbolt401
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RE: Asian Carp future invaders of the Great Lakes ! 2008/04/07 12:01:24 (permalink)
Ehh, Carp suck, but banking then doesn't do a **** thing. Stop whining and be thankful your fishing.
#52
spoonchucker
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RE: Asian Carp future invaders of the Great Lakes ! 2008/04/07 12:08:16 (permalink)
Musky,
 
I never said that they, ( common/grass Carp ), have no impact, particularlly on smaller, shallow bodies of water. My response to cooler, was that the waters that I fish ( even those with substantial Carp populations ) have not been impacted to the point of being unviable as a fishery for other species. There very well may be some smaller waters where this is the case.
 
I don't know the answer. But your article, along with my own research backs my point that they breed too prolificly to be erradicated, or even significantly reduced by angler activity. The only currently effective measures, are ( non-species specific ) chemicals, or drainage. In other words the erradication of ALL species of fish in that body of water. I believe that they have already taken this drastic step on a lake in Pa. or a neighboring state, in response to the Snakehead. Chemical treatments also carry the risk ( in most bodies of water ), of being carried downstream to other waters. Almost all lakes, ( even farm ponds ) are connected to other bodies in the watershed.
 
 
This whole debate started, when I pointed out that simply tossing them on the bank is illegal, ( and later, that it had other negative consequences ). For which I was accused of being self righteous, and later of being "nasty" when I re-iterated. As I stated before. If it makes you feel better, and you can decieve yourself into believing that you are accomplishing something, catch and PROPERLY dispose of your 50 a day, I don't care. But please do not "bank" them, or encourage others to do so. It is llegal for a reason.
 
I'm sure ( I know actually ) that with the introduction of Asian Carp, and other invasive species, a great deal of research is being done regarding treatments, and responses to them. The way to "get informed", and "get involved" ( and this is not directed at you specifically Musky )  is to expand your internet horizens beyond this board. Contact the PF&BC, as well as other enviromental, and wildlife/fisheries agencies, and find out what can & IS being done. The Pa. Sea Grant, just conducted two seminars on invasive species, and is an excellent place to start.

Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

Step Up, or Step Aside


The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody.

GL
#53
spoonchucker
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RE: Asian Carp future invaders of the Great Lakes ! 2008/04/07 12:12:52 (permalink)
Cooler,
 
DuUd, is guruese. A commonly used dialect on this board. DuUd = dude, I apologize if you took it as an insult.

Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

Step Up, or Step Aside


The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody.

GL
#54
spoonchucker
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RE: Asian Carp future invaders of the Great Lakes ! 2008/04/07 12:22:30 (permalink)
kimish,
 
If you read my posts, and it appears you have, you could easily see that I am not referring to YOUR definition of "banking". I AM concerned about our fisheries, which is why I DO "get informed" AND "involved", and one of the reasons that I objected to the promotion of tossing them  ( or any species ) on the bank. Proper dispostion, I have no problem with. One would think, that would be a relatively simple concept to discern.

Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

Step Up, or Step Aside


The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody.

GL
#55
coolerfull1
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RE: Asian Carp future invaders of the Great Lakes ! 2008/04/07 19:04:10 (permalink)
No hard feelings here, I apologize for the remarks I made.  I remember that DuUd guru, his act was wearing thin; I don't miss him.  The entire idea of 'banking' carp was a stretch.  If I told ten people to do that and each one of them told ten people and on and on....it wouldn't work anyhow.  I tend to get a little excited not just watching the asian carp video, but the places I know where carp are multiplying and taking over at a very fast pace.  Stillhead wants some examples and I don't blame him for wanting proof.  Catman610 had a great example of one place in this thread (and against my better judgement because as I said I still do some good fishing at these places) I'll give you another example as certain spots on the Juniata River.  Holes that were underfished and loaded with big smallmouths.  Hard to believe considering 10" is the norm for that place but very true.  These holes are now loaded with carp and the smallies are dropping off overall.  I can't give too much information though, there seems to be a walleye surge not to far from the area I'm referring to.  As I stated, I still do some good fishing but the carp are no doubt or question more abundant now than ever.
#56
cp13
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RE: Asian Carp future invaders of the Great Lakes ! 2008/04/07 21:15:47 (permalink)
Duud poot tHem iN yurr garRdin..

seriously, whatever you feel like doing so you can think youre making an impact, go ahead and do it...Just dont B**** and moan about getting a ticket when you do get caught...
#57
kyler16
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RE: Asian Carp future invaders of the Great Lakes ! 2008/04/07 22:23:32 (permalink)
They can't rotenone can you imagine trying to gain support to rotenone the entire Mississippi water shed..........Start stocking 25 million 4o inch muskies a year and see how those carp fare......
 

The reason that wouldnt work is because these fish grow faster then muskie. And breed faster then rabbits. And as soon as those carp get so big, and with so  many muskie the smaller fish will be completely wiped out. So then there is 2 problems.

Even tho Id like to catch those muskie.


Also The great lakes are protected by a giant electric underwater current running though ....but to me that doesnt make sense and soon would think that idea isnt the greatest.

"If you kill it, eat it. If you eat it, cook it right."
-Steve Rinella
#58
MuskyMastr
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RE: Asian Carp future invaders of the Great Lakes ! 2008/04/08 01:53:52 (permalink)
Lets breed lampreys that only have a taste for carp!!!!!!

Better too far back, than too far forward.
#59
bingsbaits
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RE: Asian Carp future invaders of the Great Lakes ! 2008/04/08 07:16:40 (permalink)
I would say get a bow and start slammin carp. Be part of the solution not the part of the problem.
I think some zoos will take them for animal feed.
We used to grind a couple up every year and pack in sausage casing and freeze. Find a jelly hole ice fishing and sink 3-6 fish sausages to the bottom as they thaw the attract bait fish.

"There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
 
 


#60
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