Helpful ReplyHot!Coronavirus opinions

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DarDys
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/09/10 09:55:02 (permalink)
Never let the facts get in front of a good story, especially if it fits your narrative.

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
snagr
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/09/10 10:17:36 (permalink)
DarDys
Never let the facts get in front of a good story, especially if it fits your narrative.



ya mean like this?
 
https://reason.com/2020/09/09/no-the-sturgis-motorcycle-rally-didnt-spawn-250000-coronavirus-cases/
 
 
Porktown
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/09/10 10:58:42 (permalink)
If Asian's are not susceptible to it or already have some sort of immunity to it, how did this virus cause a major panic in China, infecting and killing a good bit of people in a short amount of time?
 
There could be some factors as noted in play that might make it not as deadly or have some sort of immunity from similar previous infections.  I would hope that you aren't dismissing how they went on a full out epidemic response prior to it landing on their shores?  They had plans of action in place that they followed.  They also did not politicizing it.  
 
SARS and MERS did not spread nearly like this virus has.  There was nowhere near the spread to have herd immunity anywhere, besides maybe a few clusters of populations that were hard hit.  It takes 70%-90% infected to have herd immunity.
 
What SARS did, was cause such chaos in those countries' economic and public health systems, that they knew to take these potential epidemics seriously.  
eyesandgillz
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/09/10 11:22:43 (permalink)
DarDys
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/09/10 11:45:06 (permalink)
Pork,

I’ll tend to agree with you, although the physiological differences cannot be discounted as a factor. My point was the response of one country vs. another, and the results cannot be boiled down to a simple cause and effect equation.

As an example, take a look at Hofstede’s study on cultural dimensions. Asian countries are very collectively oriented, while western countries, like the US are very individually oriented. Fundamentally that means that a response which is completely acceptable in one culture, is patently rejected in another. Individualistic cultures would never stand, no matter how hard it was pressed and pressured by government, regardless of who is in charge, for a response that collective societies would not only readily accept, but relish.

An example would be the upcoming vaccine. Studies in the US show that as high as 33% of the population will refuse to take a vaccine. And this is accepted as normal in and individual culture. The exact opposite will be the case in the collective societies where one would be ostracized and shunned as an outcast if they didn’t step up for a vaccine.

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
snagr
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/09/10 12:01:49 (permalink)
Porktown
If Asian's are not susceptible to it or already have some sort of immunity to it, how did this virus cause a major panic in China, infecting and killing a good bit of people in a short amount of time?
 
There could be some factors as noted in play that might make it not as deadly or have some sort of immunity from similar previous infections.  I would hope that you aren't dismissing how they went on a full out epidemic response prior to it landing on their shores?  They had plans of action in place that they followed.  They also did not politicizing it.  
 
SARS and MERS did not spread nearly like this virus has.  There was nowhere near the spread to have herd immunity anywhere, besides maybe a few clusters of populations that were hard hit.  It takes 70%-90% infected to have herd immunity.
 
What SARS did, was cause such chaos in those countries' economic and public health systems, that they knew to take these potential epidemics seriously.  



those are studies from the university of tokyo that talk about natural immunity in that region and why it hasn't been as devastating there.  i didn't make em up or get em from q or brietbart 
 
it's demonstrably clear that japan did very little in terms of mitigation, especially early on and continues not to do mitigation.  some other countries in that region did little to nothing as well.  
 
how much should we trust what we've seen and heard from china in regards to covid?  in a country of 1.4 billion they report less than 5,000 deaths.  despite clear obfuscation early on from them, most mainstream sources say that their data is more or less trustworthy.  
 
the next couple paragraphs is all opinion from me.  no links or no sources.  just what's under my tinfoil hat.  
 
china started releasing photos and videos to the world of people just dropping dead in the streets at the beginning of 2020, months after it had started spreading in china.  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=51&v=3fKTZuY6KxM&feature=emb_logo&bpctr=1599754630
 
have we seen this happen anywhere else in the world?  without getting into our disagreements on here about how covid deaths are counted, have we seen anywhere where people are just going about their day and then drop dead on the street from covid?  have we seen bodies piled up in the streets?  people that die from covid are generally sick for weeks.  debilitatingly sick.  not walking around the streets as normal and then just fall over dead.  
 
some of our hospitals were overwhelmed, but in a country that's got a 1/4 of the population with 35 ish times more reported deaths, we never saw bodies piling up in the streets or the field hospitals in major cities even being used for a single patient.  how can that be?  in cities and states that locked down pretty hard.  in european countries that locked down very hard.  we never saw anything even close to what china was putting out in the media.  
 
so either china is lying about its numbers, or it used disinformation and propaganda to scare europe and the us into shutting down as the only way that this virus could be stopped, because they knew it would cripple our economies and further cement their status as the number one global superpower.  
 
thanks for coming to my q drop.  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
post edited by snagr - 2020/09/10 12:06:22
r3g3
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/09/10 12:02:23 (permalink)
In countries that are more socialistic it is easier for them to rapidly invoke draconian measures on their populace with strict compliance being demanded- also in many of those other counties its commonplace for multiple generations to be living under one roof giving much more concern to the the fact that this virus hit the elderly hardest by John q.
 
The constitutional rights arguments of restriction simply dont happen in many other places we commonly compare ourselves to therefore there is little actual true comparison as the populace responds  differently.
 
Then there are the population density issues.
LDD
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/09/10 12:06:47 (permalink)
DarDys
Walleye jigs
Because he's a Total aHole,schoolyard BULLY, among other things. He appoints people then sets out to destroy them if they disagree with anything he said or did, he's a racist and worst of all he fooled me into vot8ng for him. Even though he's a draft DODGER, a lair and a thief who hired is entire family of thieves to help rip. Off the American people. However on the plus side he's not a Clinton. 
 
 


Thank you for replying. That is how conversations start.

Allow me to rebut your points, if I may.

“He’s an ahole.” That’s personality, not policy, so it doesn’t fall within the parameters of the question. Most successful business people, beyond the Mom and Pop, are ahole-like. Read about Steve Jobs, Henry Ford, Mellon, Carnegie, Bezzos, Welch. If you don’t want to read, check out the History Channel, any of the Men Who Built America series.

“Bully”. Again, personality, not policy. I don’t like the guy’s personality either. Read “Art if the Deal” and see where that personality came from — hint, dealing with NYC politicians.

“Appoint people then destroy them if they don’t agree.” Third time, personally, not policy. Unlike politics, especially in the last 30 years or so, where incompetence and inaction are rewarded with re-election, in business, if someone does not follow the mission set forth by the CEO, they are removed. Leaders, while open to ideas, tend to be autocratic and there is an expectancy that those bin lower ranks follow or leave — voluntarily or involuntarily. As for destroying them, as soon as one of them leaves, it’s straight to a TV camera or a publisher to get their story out or, more likely, cash in and make a buck. Is it not human nature when attacked, especially publicly, to defend one’s self?

“Racist.” Fourth time, personality, not policy. And completely unfounded. Name one racist policy decision that proves racism. Enterprise zones? Nope, just the opposite. Full and permanent funding for traditional Black colleges and universities? Nope, just the opposite. Pre-pandemic lowest unemployment rate for all minorities? Nope, just the opposite. Prison reform? Nope, just the opposite.

So wherein lies this racism? Stating that Senator Byrd, who was a KKK member was their mentor as they gave his eulogy? Oh, that would be Biden. Voting against school integration so their kids wouldn’t have to attend with minorities in “the urban jungle?” Oh, that would be Biden. Voting for the crime bill that was responsible for putting more minorities in prison for non-violent crimes? Oh, that would be Biden. Making racist statements like “if you don’t vote for me, you ain’t black” and “Obama is articulate and clean?” Oh, that would be Biden.

“Draft dodger.” Fifth personal thing, not policy. Because he had bone spurs? Maybe. He did go to a military school, so who knows. But how is that different than Biden who was deemed unfit for service due to asthma? How is that different than Clinton who got out of service by writing a conscientious objector letter to his ROTC commander saying he just wasn’t going to serve and was granted an out?

“Liar”. Show an elected person who is not. And, while at it, what specific lie? Proven factually false, not open for interpretation or “he said 10 and its 9” splitting of hairs. Did he say “like your doctor, keep your doctor?” Lie. Did he say “like your healthcare plan, keep your healthcare plan?” Lie. Did he say “your healthcare will go down by $2500?” Lie. Did he say “no fracking” then switch to fracking? Lie.

“Rip off the American people.” No example? All his business dealings are out of his control while in office. If anything, being President cost him a fortune.

So, in total, no policies are presented, just personality issues, many of them invented, inflamed, or exaggerated by the mainstream media. But that’s okay. If you would rather have a “nice guy” running anything, let alone the country, that is your prerogative. Keep in mind, Jimmy Carter was a nice guy. Bush I was a nice guy. See how well the country did under their leadership.

Thanks for the discussion.

Wow, this a great, GREAT, Trump apology.  He would love you.  You should send this to his twitter.  He might re-tweet it. 
 
Unfortunately, you don't get to make the rules about how people feel about him, or, about how people will respond to your prompt.  Also, it's ironic that you're not listening to the poster.  Jigs seems to have his mind made up, this apology for Donald only works to further solidify his opinions of Donald and his supporters.  It's ironic, because this is the same thing that the dems did when people attacked Hillary, not realizing or not caring that people felt betrayed, jilted, double crossed.  You're doing the same thing.  You're not listening.  If Donald loses it will be because of this.  His team needs to start addressing these voters who he has lost.  The margins are slim.  
 
Also, some men demand to be led by men of honor, men who can be respected,  others do not.  It's as simple as that.  It's personal, "it's all personal to me." (Liam Neeson) 
DarDys
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/09/10 13:24:46 (permalink)
I’m not apologizing for Trump, so you missed the point, which was if you don’t like the person, for whatever reason, then base your vote on that, but also step up and just say it, don’t try to rationalize that your decision had anything to do with anything deeper than dislike, particularly with reasons that are so easily rebutted.

The original question was disagreement on policy, not personality and the response contained nothing but personality reasons. Which is fine. Just understand what one gets with “nice guy” personality in the WH — Jimmy Carter and Bush 1.

For those not alive or paying attention during the Carter years, he was a nice guy with that southern “oh, shucks” appeal. He won the 2002 Nobel Peace Prize, mostly for the Camp David accord, but also for advancing SALT II.

But that is the good news. Inflation, which Carter blamed on Nixon and Ford, went from 4.8% in 1976 to 12% by Election Day in 1980. The unemployment rate, without a pandemic, was 7.7% nationwide, with the industrialized states in the rust belt going onto the double digits. The fed rate ran as high as 20+% interest, with mortgage, auto, and other consumer interest rates being double digits. A 55 mph speed limit was imposed nationwide and gasoline was solid in limited amounts on odd and even days (if the station even had gas), although this started under Nixon, it lasted through the Carter years. Lastly, the Iran Hostage, which saw 52 Americans held hostage for 444 days and were only released upon the inauguration of Reagan, not a nice guy.

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
LDD
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/09/10 13:53:51 (permalink)
DarDys
I’m not apologizing for Trump, so you missed the point, which was if you don’t like the person, for whatever reason, then base your vote on that, but also step up and just say it, don’t try to rationalize that your decision had anything to do with anything deeper than dislike, particularly with reasons that are so easily rebutted.

The original question was disagreement on policy, not personality and the response contained nothing but personality reasons. Which is fine. Just understand what one gets with “nice guy” personality in the WH — Jimmy Carter and Bush 1.

For those not alive or paying attention during the Carter years, he was a nice guy with that southern “oh, shucks” appeal. He won the 2002 Nobel Peace Prize, mostly for the Camp David accord, but also for advancing SALT II.

But that is the good news. Inflation, which Carter blamed on Nixon and Ford, went from 4.8% in 1976 to 12% by Election Day in 1980. The unemployment rate, without a pandemic, was 7.7% nationwide, with the industrialized states in the rust belt going onto the double digits. The fed rate ran as high as 20+% interest, with mortgage, auto, and other consumer interest rates being double digits. A 55 mph speed limit was imposed nationwide and gasoline was solid in limited amounts on odd and even days (if the station even had gas), although this started under Nixon, it lasted through the Carter years. Lastly, the Iran Hostage, which saw 52 Americans held hostage for 444 days and were only released upon the inauguration of Reagan, not a nice guy.

Easily rebutted in your subjective world.  I'm not going to get in a back and forth about whether Trump lied or whether he is a racist or simply stokes it for political gain, that's a fool's errand at this point.  You asked a question, he chose to respond with exactly how he felt, not a response to your prompt.   Then,  you proceeded to rebut his personal feelings  about the character of Donald with a barrage of non-factual, subjective rhetoric to defend him.  I would say that's apologist.  
 
My point is that your reaction is ironic, given the fact that he won the last election because the Dem party did exactly that to people who felt disenfranchised by them.  People feel jilted and the Trumpers "don't wanna hear it".  You think a dislike of Trump is some personal flaw of people or a weakness exposed the the MSM, when in fact many people who don't like him gave him multiple chances, breaks, work arounds etc...Or, some of us saw through his deceit from the beginning, which you conveniently describe as his New York business acumen time and again.  
 
 
 
 
Walleye jigs
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/09/10 14:38:52 (permalink)
Guess I have a personal flaw!  I can't stand the sob the same as I can't stand a lair, a cheat, a womanizer. Plus I regret having fallen for his act in the beginning. I should not have even voted cause I could not have voted for Clinton! As for the draft dodgers bone spurs wonder how much that cost him!
   As for Carter the only peanut farmer with no NUTS.
DarDys
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/09/10 14:49:56 (permalink)
No flaw at all. Never said there was one. Just trying to understand if voting, not just yours, is being based on data and results from policy or on emotions. One is not more valid than another. But the outcomes are different.

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
Porktown
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/09/10 15:14:23 (permalink)
 
Per the BBC article, Japan did do a good bit.  Nothing like China, but most countries did not beat people to comply.  Japan had a model that their people followed (the three C's).  Japan also has a huge population that ALWAYS wears masks.  They showed the photos in the article, but unlike countless other articles of Japan's success, they mentioned little of it.  Which UPMC just reiterated is "imperative to wear masks in public settings".  Same UPMC that has been quoted multiple times on here.  Japan's Prime Minister followed science and asked his people to follow as well and they did.  That article basically shows how the US failed.
 
Again, I can see the rationale of another corona virus giving some protection for some.  Which would be an excellent indication of a vaccine working, no?
 
To use the excuse that you can't compare the US that is used to more freedoms than other countries is just absurd, just as the other excuses for Trump being a low life.  The science is out there, yet a leader refuses to endorse it, instead inspires his followers to look for alternate explanations instead of endorsing as well.  If he would have followed the science and told the Trumpers that masks are important, social distancing is important, smaller gathers are important, as well as show in his actions, his followers would comply without protest.  Innovations are already happening to overcome the inconveniences that it has caused, with only 65% of people on board.  If all were on board, we would have an answer to just about any inconvenience we are facing right now and things would be about 90% open.  But 35% of people in this country would rather spend every second of their existence trying to prove the science incorrect or just complain that things are inconvenient right now.  
DarDys
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/09/10 16:14:57 (permalink)
If you are dismissing Hofstede, it is clear that you have not been involved in much international business. His study, commissioned by IBM, is seminal. It has nothing to do with Trump. It has everything to do with being American that rates as the top for individualism.

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
JM2
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/09/10 16:50:59 (permalink)
Walleye jigs
Guess I have a personal flaw!  I can't stand the sob the same as I can't stand a lair, a cheat, a womanizer. Plus I regret having fallen for his act in the beginning. I should not have even voted cause I could not have voted for Clinton! As for the draft dodgers bone spurs wonder how much that cost him!
   As for Carter the only peanut farmer with no NUTS.




Does Biden meet your standards?
 
ICE NUT
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/09/10 17:17:30 (permalink)
Even more important does Kamala meet your standards if joe's is elected she will soon be running the show!!!
JM2
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/09/10 17:56:34 (permalink)
If elected, neither one would be running the show. There are only a small number of people in this country that would know who is really pulling the strings, and running the show.
genieman77
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/09/10 23:15:56 (permalink)
snagr
 
 
 
so either china is lying about its numbers, or it used disinformation and propaganda to scare europe and the us into shutting down as the only way that this virus could be stopped, because they knew it would cripple our economies and further cement their status as the number one global superpower.  
 
 




 
what do they gain by crippling their own economy?
without our and Euro markets to sell their manufactured good to, they go broke too.
Money rules the world super powers scene today.
not bombs and bullets.
China was on a steady course to eclipse the US in less than a generation.
It don't make cents for them to purposelessly upset that apple cart
 
...L.T.A.
 
 
eyesandgillz
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/09/11 07:33:02 (permalink)
China's economy was in decline prior to the pandemic.  They are now the first to see recovery.  
LDD
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/09/11 07:35:19 (permalink)
genieman77
snagr
 
 
 
so either china is lying about its numbers, or it used disinformation and propaganda to scare europe and the us into shutting down as the only way that this virus could be stopped, because they knew it would cripple our economies and further cement their status as the number one global superpower.  
 
 




 
what do they gain by crippling their own economy?
without our and Euro markets to sell their manufactured good to, they go broke too.
Money rules the world super powers scene today.
not bombs and bullets.
China was on a steady course to eclipse the US in less than a generation.
It don't make cents for them to purposelessly upset that apple cart
 
...L.T.A.
 
 


Right, as far any any of the conspiracy theories about corona, I apply this same standard.  The world runs on money, politicians are elected by it and with it, people gain power because of it, wars (ideological and otherwise) are won because of it...who would intentionally destroy an economy knowing that in turn they lose power because of it?  Certainly nobody who wants to remain in power.  
snagr
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/09/11 11:07:27 (permalink)
genieman77
 
 
what do they gain by crippling their own economy?
without our and Euro markets to sell their manufactured good to, they go broke too.
Money rules the world super powers scene today.
not bombs and bullets.
China was on a steady course to eclipse the US in less than a generation.
It don't make cents for them to purposelessly upset that apple cart
 
...L.T.A.
 
 



i'll preface this by saying i'm bad with numbers and economics - not a particular political interest of mine, and not something i pay much attention to on a regular basis.  i'm not real familiar with all the nuances of what makes an economy rise and fall.  but china has seen some pretty significant economic growth beginning in the second quarter of 2020, after decline in the first quarter, while western economies continue to contract.  
 
 
Attachments are not available: Download requirements not met
 
 
https://www.statista.com/chart/18095/quarterly-gdp-growth-predicted-growth-selected-industrialized-nations-oecd/
 
 
this source shows annual growth or contraction of different countries.  china's green.  the west is red.  https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/NGDP_RPCH@WEO/OEMDC/ADVEC/WEOWORLD
 
this source describes on a basic level the "how" behind the recovery in china:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/15/business/economy/china-coronavirus-economy.html
 
 
question is, will that contraction for the west continue for a significant amount of time, and will china's growth continue for a significant amount of time?  seems like a lot of their growth is from buying their own stuff, while exports are up just a tick from this time last year.  so maybe not sustainable, but enough to give em an edge.  like you asked, is that edge "worth it" on the pace their economy was on?  i have no idea.  
 
asking honestly, and not rhetorically . . . what other reasons would china have to hide coronavirus for a couple months, and release propaganda on social media outlets in the west?  
 
as far back as june, the european union said china was running disinformation campaigns on covid.  
https://www.politico.eu/article/european-commission-disinformation-china-coronavirus/
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Porktown
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/09/11 14:27:33 (permalink)
snagr
 
the next couple paragraphs is all opinion from me.  no links or no sources.  just what's under my tinfoil hat.  
 
china started releasing photos and videos to the world of people just dropping dead in the streets at the beginning of 2020, months after it had started spreading in china.  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=51&v=3fKTZuY6KxM&feature=emb_logo&bpctr=1599754630
 
have we seen this happen anywhere else in the world?  without getting into our disagreements on here about how covid deaths are counted, have we seen anywhere where people are just going about their day and then drop dead on the street from covid?  have we seen bodies piled up in the streets?  people that die from covid are generally sick for weeks.  debilitatingly sick.  not walking around the streets as normal and then just fall over dead.  
 
some of our hospitals were overwhelmed, but in a country that's got a 1/4 of the population with 35 ish times more reported deaths, we never saw bodies piling up in the streets or the field hospitals in major cities even being used for a single patient.  how can that be?  in cities and states that locked down pretty hard.  in european countries that locked down very hard.  we never saw anything even close to what china was putting out in the media.  
 
so either china is lying about its numbers, or it used disinformation and propaganda to scare europe and the us into shutting down as the only way that this virus could be stopped, because they knew it would cripple our economies and further cement their status as the number one global superpower.  
 
thanks for coming to my q drop.  

It could possibly be a deliberate Chinese attack.  I personally think either natural or accidental escape from their lab.
 
I don't ever recall seeing anything on the news of people dropping dead on the streets.  I recall them spraying the heck out of public spaces, hospitals overcrowded, morgues filling too fast that they needed to find places to store the dead and Chinese police beating people for trying to leave town...  Not great sights, but in 100% honesty, I personally was never ever under the impression from any source, that this virus would kill people instantly.  There could have been sources reporting that, but I don't honestly remember the news showing anything like that. 
 
The first reports that I recall, sounded very similar to what Trump was saying in the Woodward interview, of it being airborne and similar to the flu, but 5 times as deadly.  I do recall reports while still in China, that it mostly killed older people, those with medical conditions, but also killed some that were completely healthy, but not nearly as many as the others.  I also recall them saying that some had no symptoms or very minimal and others flu like and others that didn't die but close, pretty much a very wide variety, kind of like now.  Besides some more refined details that we have learned, including breakthroughs on treatments and the likelihood that it affects the vascular system and the most glaring detail being that it isn't nearly as contagious as once thought, I don't see all that much changing from reports from when I first started paying more attention to it while in China.  
 
I also recall similar images in the Italian and Spanish responses to their outbreaks (besides the beating of people).  Which was honestly the most eye opening to me, since that was the same time that we were reporting cases and didn't see any reason for those countries to be making up the severity.  Then similar scene in NYC, which is still rather terrifying that it spread through the entire tri-state/suburban sprawl, which it has done in many cities, but thankfully better treatment options emerged.  I thought the NYC field hospitals were used, same as the Naval ships for non-covid related use, to keep them contained from the covid cases?  They didn't use as much as they thought would be the case, which is a great thing.  I don't recall hearing all that much about the Chinese field hospitals, beyond how quickly they made them.  I tend to believe they weren't made as a prop of deception, but I could be wrong, my opinion only.  
 
That all being said...  The US news media sensationalized the heck out the NY outbreak, the European outbreak and I would assume the Chinese one.  The Chinese outbreak was back seat to Trump being impeached to our media coverage.  I am not sure if there are many in this country that haven't picked up on the news sensationalizing just about everything though, no matter what side they lean...  So I take most things that I first hear with a grain of salt and absorb more before I rush to judgement.  When it was in China, I, like many, watched with the assumption that like SARS, Ebola and other outbreaks, that our CDC and others would keep it contained if it made it here.  It was something of concern and horrible to watch, just as the images of earthquakes, hurricanes and other disasters in far off places "that would never effect us". 
 
Which, honestly, I understand what Trump's comment about "playing it down" at the time that he said it, to not cause panic.  Which was the same as Fauci at the time that he said  Americans didn't need to wear masks in public.  At the time he said that 10-15 cases that they thought were contained, "playing it down" and not wearing masks were both the right move, both to not cause panic.  Being that Trump kicked Fauci under the bus and didn't lend a hand in explaining at the time it was the right statement (which many still ignore), I wonder if Fauci will do the same for Trump? 
 
What Trump did with that information is where I have the problems.  He didn't do anything to prepare the nation and slowly informing the public of the threat, to ease panic.  Instead, he never told the public of the threat, ignored the science and threat and to this day encourages any distorted data to support this virus not being as deadly as it is, then shifts blame on states for any negative news...  Hiding that information to not cause panic is excusable for a few weeks to prepare (stockpile PPE and other items that they expect runs on, etc).  To hide it and never reveal, while pushing against scientific data and not using his influence to share public health advice is beyond troubling. 
 
My thought is that he was convinced that it would go away in the summer or at least temporarily go away.  Have a rolling economy for the election, if the virus reappeared, then possibly push the public health message then and be a hero.  That backfired on him and like he always does when he is wrong, he doubles down.  He almost appeared to have a soul and do the right thing for a few weeks in March, but then abandoned his fictitious morality, which we witnessed the spike in deaths from.  Of course death rates are down, every infectious disease expert and biologist is working around the clock on treatments and vaccines.  It is unfortunate that thousands of Americans will lose their lives from something as easily preventable as Trump changing course.  He can do what he always does and use revisionist history to say it was always his policy.  His cult will follow and might actually pick up some voters that the BLM is making it almost impossible to vote for Biden.
 
Beyond wearing a mask to the grocery, hardware or other stores, and currently added to coaching and attending some sporting events, my behavior prior to corona isn't all that much different.  I have social distanced for years...  Unless you are my wife or kids, if you come within 4' of me, I back up and tell you to move away if you keep coming closer.  I have always lived by the 4 space zones of human factors (I studied them and use professionally, so I know the terms, but most do instinctively regardless).  Intimate, personal space, social space (4'-12') and public space (12'-24').  If you are not my family member or close friend, chances are, you have not spend more than a few seconds within 6' of me prior to covid.  Beyond my wife or kids, I don't like people in my personal space, most people don't.  I don't personally wear a mask when around friends either, unless we are in some sort of public space that requires.  Knowing that science and 99% of public health officials say that wearing a mask is "imperative", I really do not mind wearing.  
 
For the economic impact, I think there is no doubt that investigators from many countries are currently verifying if any foul play by China.  Could your claim have some validity, definitely.  I have no doubt that there are teams of investigators currently working to see if that claim along with many others are conspiracy or truth, as I imagine many claims are investigated.  China is most likely making a very good portion of the products or components of the products that our current pandemic economy with the winners being a few large companies and losers being mostly small businesses.  Whether they knew that the rest of the world would start working remotely and only allow big box stores to remain open, etc. is kind of hard to fathom how random some of the "winners" have been.  Although, some were much more predictable winners.  I would think that investigators will be able to figure out if they were ramping up production of items or raw materials prior to the pandemic that seem to fit the more predictable supply runs at the very least.  If so, I would expect the international community to retaliate in trade embargoes, etc.  Even if they did do on purpose, it would not go unchecked and possibly lead to WW3.  
 
 
MyWar
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/09/11 15:21:37 (permalink)
snagr
question is, will that contraction for the west continue for a significant amount of time, and will china's growth continue for a significant amount of time?  seems like a lot of their growth is from buying their own stuff, while exports are up just a tick from this time last year.  so maybe not sustainable, but enough to give em an edge.  like you asked, is that edge "worth it" on the pace their economy was on?  i have no idea.  

 
 


China’s second quarter GDP growth was mostly due to the Chinese government dumping huge amounts of money into infrastructure projects. Since they are a one party authoritarian regime, the government could basically do whatever they wanted in that regard.

Consumer spending in China is still down however. If it doesn’t improve then expansion won’t be sustainable, especially since basically the rest of the world is mired in a recession as well.

China’s economy is linked to a world economy at this point. There is no logical reason for them to deliberately sabotage the economies of every single one of their trading partners.

Economic distress in the west will likely continue as long as people continue to get sick. There’s no way around that. We need to figure out a way to deal with it. Pretending it’s not happening and/ or downplaying its impact on public health is just going to keep dragging this out longer and longer.

It seems that there may be a lot to learn from some of these eastern nations tho. As already mentioned, South Korea has done a remarkable job at limiting deaths, and they have also managed to blunt some of the economic impacts as well. Government spending on infrastructure looks like a pretty smart solution too since we have crumbling infrastructure and alot of people out of work right now. It actually shouldn’t be that hard for elected officials to take a good hard look at what has worked in other countries, and simply model US policy accordingly, but that will never happen until people stop pretending that this all a big hoax.
genieman77
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/09/11 21:36:02 (permalink)
MyWar
We need to figure out a way to deal with it. Pretending it’s not happening and/ or downplaying its impact on public health is just going to keep dragging this out longer and longer.




 
if you didn't look at the news, and just went by what you see and know in your daily travels, does it look worse than several other major  pandemics we've been thru?
 
seriously, in the world I see around me,  the hysteria seems way  overboard to the reality of it
 
..L.T.A.
 
 
 
snagr
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/09/12 15:19:23 (permalink)
so the gold standard south korea...

testing: 29K/million population vs 161K/million in the u.s. they test at 18% of our rate.

rate of increase in mortality in south korea by month compared to previous year. not the statistical equivalent of cdc excess mortality but closest comparison I could find on the korea cdc website (http://kostat.go.kr/porta...eases/8/9/index.board)

summer of 2018 through summer of 2019 every month is under previous year then it starts rising in the fall and winter of 2019 and into spring and summer of 2020. most are now in agreement this started in mid october in china

nov 2019 +5%
dec .2019 +.9%
jan 2020 +4%
feb +10.9%
mar +3.6%
apr +3.3%
may +1.6%
june +2.7%

no stats yet for july and august but will be interesting to see given their recent level of vigilance.

maybe they don’t have a lot of covid cases and covid deaths because they don’t incessantly test for it like we do. and their testing standards are much tighter than ours.

but they have certainly had excess death rates compared to previous years, especially when you consider this is year to year comparison and all of 2018 was below 2017.

those are pretty significant rate increases. and another thing to consider ... south korea ain’t exactly the most transparent democracy in the world as most of us think of democracy.

anybody ever notice that their “outbreaks” are pinned on gatherings of religious and political dissidents of the government. i’m sure that’s just coincidental.

still better than europe and the us? probably. but probably not as much per capita as many of us have assumed.
post edited by snagr - 2020/09/12 18:00:55
MyWar
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/09/13 18:46:19 (permalink)
genieman77
MyWar
We need to figure out a way to deal with it. Pretending it’s not happening and/ or downplaying its impact on public health is just going to keep dragging this out longer and longer.




 
if you didn't look at the news, and just went by what you see and know in your daily travels, does it look worse than several other major  pandemics we've been thru?
 
seriously, in the world I see around me,  the hysteria seems way  overboard to the reality of it
 
..L.T.A.
 
 
 


I don’t live in an area that has been particularly hard hit with an outbreak, so no, I don’t think I would understand the difference between COVID and the flu. But my answer would probably be different if I lived in NYC.

Also, I am not doctor. If I had medical training, my answer would likely be different.

But your question is based on flawed reasoning. What if you said this about any political topic?

Would you know about Benghazi or Hilary Clinton’s emails? Would you know about them in your daily travels?

Would you know about 9/11 if you didn’t live near NYC or see it on the news?

What about the horde of immigrants that always turn up at the border around election season? If you didn’t have Fox News screaming about it, would you care about it?

How about ISIS?

Or abortions?

Or same sex marriage?

Or how about the war on Christmas?


There are a ton of things that you probably wouldn’t know or care about if you didn’t have conservative media scaring it into you.

But the solution isn’t to just stop watching the news. What we need is accuracy and honesty in media and elected officials, particularly when it comes to public health issues.

Or let’s turn it around the other way.,,

What if your drinking water was contaminated but you couldn’t taste or smell it, how would you know?

Or what if there was a hurricane or a tornado or some other weather event that was coming towards you, how would you know?

Are you starting to see the problems with your question?
genieman77
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/09/13 21:40:37 (permalink)
MyWar


I don’t live in an area that has been particularly hard hit with an outbreak, so no,



 
that's the point, Mywar
 
the overwhelming majority of us aren't seeing it either
 
NYC?
8.2 million people
if all the NY deaths state wide (33k) were in NYC, that's 0.04%
you likely wouldn't see much different there than in your 'hood
 
as far the other stuff, it's  non relevant straw man stuff
 
..L.T.A.
 
 
post edited by genieman77 - 2020/09/13 21:42:19
MyWar
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/09/13 22:51:23 (permalink)
Sure bud, if I can’t see it with my own eyes, it ain’t happening. Brilliant.

Sounds like you need to look up what “straw man” means btw.
eyesandgillz
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/09/13 23:01:35 (permalink)
Here's to hoping the legislature has enough votes to override the dear governor.....
 
https://www.mcall.com/new...44urqv22hfy-story.html
genieman77
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/09/14 06:34:01 (permalink)
MyWar
Sure bud, if I can’t see it with my own eyes, it ain’t happening. Brilliant.





I didn't say the pandemic wasn't real .
I'm  saying  the panicked over reaction is overblown and is doing  more damage than the bug
 
..L.T.A.
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