Helpful ReplyHot!Coronavirus opinions

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LDD
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/07/27 17:39:31 (permalink)
MyWar
Let’s all try to imagine a scenario where 150,000 US citizens die of a global pandemic while Barack Obama is in office, and the collective response of all you Trump voters is simply: “Welp, federalism“ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Sure. Sounds plausible.


Yup, complete abdication of any responsibility for orangey
BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/07/27 17:39:50 (permalink)
MyWar
Let’s all try to imagine a scenario where 150,000 US citizens die of a global pandemic while Barack Obama is in office, and the collective response of all you Trump voters is simply: “Welp, federalism“ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Sure. Sounds plausible.



annnnnnd under the Obama Administration it would have been... "nothing to see here folks" A/K/A; a nothing burger.

If in fact the virus would have been releas errrr gotten out, in the first place.
post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2020/07/27 17:43:55

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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/07/27 17:42:18 (permalink)
LDD
What should have been done differently?

- Nationalized testing
- Nationalized messaging on KNOWN things that work (masks/distancing)
- Nationalized standardization of re-opening criteria
- Nationalized support for essential functions (schools, hospitals, food, energy supply

Not laws...LEADERSHIP


He's joshing.. right?

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
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ICE NUT
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/07/27 19:01:55 (permalink)
What LAWS LDD did trump make???? I thought its the congress's job to mke laws am I right??.Your famous picture for the nats Dr Falsie was the one who gave out false information on the masks remember ya don't need them it wasn't trump. Oh yea 1.5 to 2.2 million americans would die well way off again and it wasn;t trump who dreamed up those numbers was it.Nationalized support for essential functions like schools well there not yet open and i would think it was a local decision not trumps dont ya think.Hospitals the man has doled out billions to help hospitals where you been having a coffee in Bidens basement!! Being a retired Medical Technologist myself of 33 years Ive performed literally thousands of tests in my time. I stiil know people in the field and they are overwelmed to say the least.You cant do tests without 1 the qualified people to perform the test and if you can't get enough reagents,test cartriges,pippettes ,and your facility doesn't have the platform(necessary machine ) to perform a rapid thruput of tests.The amount of testing will never be able to match what is needed for this pandemic only a vaccine that works will! I'm sure Joe Biden and whomever will solve all these problems right he's had expierience in solving ploblems right 47 years of nothing!!!
DarDys
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/07/27 19:16:44 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby JM2 2020/07/27 21:10:46
LDD
What should have been done differently?

- Nationalized testing
- Nationalized messaging on KNOWN things that work (masks/distancing)
- Nationalized standardization of re-opening criteria
- Nationalized support for essential functions (schools, hospitals, food, energy supply

Not laws...LEADERSHIP


Why nationalize testing when there were areas that needed more testing and areas that needed less testing?

Why nationalize things like masks for the above reason in addition to Fauci, CDC, and WHO all at different points going different directions on the use or effectiveness?

Why nationalize reopening when the infection rate was different in different locals? Should those areas that have little to no infections/hospitalizations/deaths follow the same plan as those with high rates (suspend travel in Key West because their is a blizzard in Maine)?

Nationalize support for essential functions — done, except for schools because they are locally effected.

What was legal to do on a national level was done, even as some didn’t want it done. What needs to be done on a state or local level is outside the scope of the federal government, no matter who is in charge.

But logically, would you want policy that may be good for one segment of the country, but not for yours forced down your throat?

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
MyWar
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/07/27 22:16:24 (permalink)
For one thing, you nationalize the response because some states have access to resources that other states do not. And by “resources” I mean everything from PPE & ventilators, to data & research, to medicine or any other resource required to fight this thing.

For example, states like Louisiana simply do not have the same capacity to deal with a pandemic in the way that a state like New York does. And cities like Pittsburgh don’t have the same capacity as NYC. So the role of the federal government is to put all of the cities and states on a level playing field because this virus doesn’t care about state & city boundaries.

But instead, we had a federal government that not only just punted responsibility to the states, it actively undermined their efforts to contain the disease by pressuring them to “reopen the economy” (so much for “federalism” eh?).

And you also had scarcity of resources which led to states literally bidding against each other for ventilators.

And now we have school districts that have no idea how to open schools safely in the fall, and instead of providing guidance and assistance, the federal government is simply pressuring them to open for political reasons (so much for “federalism” AGAIN, eh?).

It’s a total disaster and it’s indefensible.

And if you think this is a constitutional issue, please cite the language in the constitution that says coordinating the response to a global pandemic is NOT the role of the federal government.
JM2
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/07/27 22:50:49 (permalink)
New York had more federally provided resources than they needed. Cuomo even wanted more, and never used want was provided by TRUMP. It was an embarrassing waste of federal resources, by normal peoples standards. No matter how much money you throw at things, it's still hard to fix stupid. Democrats leadership on most levels are stupid. The party needs to be voted out of existence. It's always politics with them.
post edited by JM2 - 2020/07/27 22:54:12
EMitch
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/07/28 06:30:24 (permalink)
MyWar
For one thing, you nationalize the response because some states have access to resources that other states do not. And by “resources” I mean everything from PPE & ventilators, to data & research, to medicine or any other resource required to fight this thing.

 
It was promised by the Fed and as soon as supplies became available after the nationwide ramp up, aid and materials were shipped to where needed. If you deny this, you're wrong.
 
MyWar
For example, states like Louisiana simply do not have the same capacity to deal with a pandemic in the way that a state like New York does. And cities like Pittsburgh don’t have the same capacity as NYC. So the role of the federal government is to put all of the cities and states on a level playing field because this virus doesn’t care about state & city boundaries.

 
Are you sayin' this didn't happen. Are you criticizing the fact that the Fed sent stuff to places that needed it as soon as it became available. I think you would be happy about that, comrade. "From each according to his means, to each according to their needs".

Take a break, MyWar. Go play in the traffic!




It is better to have loved and lost than to live with a psycho for the rest of your life.
DarDys
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/07/28 07:46:05 (permalink)
According to a readiness audit that looked at natural disaster, terror attack, or pandemic, that NYC conducted on a regular basis after 9/11, NYC was short approximately 11,000 ventilators in case of a pandemic (not exactly sure of the year, but I believe 2010). They bought zero. Not exactly a federal issue when they came up short.

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
MyWar
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/07/28 10:16:38 (permalink)
EMitch
MyWar
For one thing, you nationalize the response because some states have access to resources that other states do not. And by “resources” I mean everything from PPE & ventilators, to data & research, to medicine or any other resource required to fight this thing.

 
It was promised by the Fed and as soon as supplies became available after the nationwide ramp up, aid and materials were shipped to where needed. If you deny this, you're wrong.



Exactly what materials did the Trump administration provide, and when were they provided?

And please cite your source.
LDD
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/07/28 11:06:03 (permalink)
DarDys
LDD
What should have been done differently?

- Nationalized testing
- Nationalized messaging on KNOWN things that work (masks/distancing)
- Nationalized standardization of re-opening criteria
- Nationalized support for essential functions (schools, hospitals, food, energy supply

Not laws...LEADERSHIP


Why nationalize testing when there were areas that needed more testing and areas that needed less testing?

Why nationalize things like masks for the above reason in addition to Fauci, CDC, and WHO all at different points going different directions on the use or effectiveness?

Why nationalize reopening when the infection rate was different in different locals? Should those areas that have little to no infections/hospitalizations/deaths follow the same plan as those with high rates (suspend travel in Key West because their is a blizzard in Maine)?

Nationalize support for essential functions — done, except for schools because they are locally effected.

What was legal to do on a national level was done, even as some didn’t want it done. What needs to be done on a state or local level is outside the scope of the federal government, no matter who is in charge.

But logically, would you want policy that may be good for one segment of the country, but not for yours forced down your throat?
.

Yes to everything you said on an “as needed” basis. As in, teams of testers who can become deployable to sections of the country that need it as well as health response workers.
Yes to a national metric that states would all use to guide reopenings so there could be a standard that is uniform allowing states to coordinate their responses more effectively.
The virus is one thing. It acts consistently the same, that is agreed upon. We need to nationalize the known and proven responses and quit fiddle-f-in around.
As far as the mask and social distance thing that is education and leadership from the federal level. Trump and his team could have supported Fauci and people would have listened. Instead, they allowed the hounds to bay and now here we are. Americans don’t like to be told but someone at the top could have asked and that would have saved lives. Team Trump is happy to undercut Fauci for whatever reason to the detriment of the American people.
DarDys
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/07/28 11:25:54 (permalink)
Except Fauci was against masks before he was for them. As was WHO and CDC.

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
LDD
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/07/28 12:04:35 (permalink)
Ok, because masks aren’t a core value they are a medical safeguard based on currently accepted best practice. I want my healthcare providers to adapt their recommendations to the most current information available. I assume you do as well. We are all learning here. We should be doing it together.
DarDys
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/07/28 12:22:25 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby snagr 2020/07/28 12:25:04
The problem is the most current information available is dynamic and not agreed upon across even the medical professions.

Don’t wear a mask. Wear a mask.

Transferable on surfaces. Not transferable on surfaces.

Transferable through contact. Not transferable through contact.

Only spread by direct deposit of droplets. Spread by droplets hanging in the air.

And so on and so forth. With a dynamic situation, there is not only little agreement, there is little consensus.

With the high percentage of cases that were contracted while in lockdown, that wasn’t a good move in the areas in which it happened, yet it was what the experts advised at the time.

This, like many situations, does not lend itself to “instant “ answers. It is even less so in a country as large and diverse with regard to geography, population density, population makeup, climate differences, lifestyle differences, risk tolerance differences, etc.

Heck, just look at PA. Should the response be the same in Philly as in Potter County. Obviously not. One area is a hot spot the other can have the number of cases counted on one hand. So it is impossible to have any, any meaningful national response unless it takes the worst case area and apply that across the entire country. And not only is that silly, but the American people will not stand for it. Oddly enough, that is what the country was founded on.

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
Irisheyeball
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/07/28 12:45:11 (permalink)
The problem was not brought about by “wrong” science or confused messaging. It was a failure of will and leadership. Most Americans are smart enough to understand risk and act appropriately when provided with information. Most can also understand the dynamic nature of a complex problem and can hold multiple thoughts at the same time and adjust. Regrettably, most in this country were not even given a chance....that’s the nature of Trump’s cynicism. Only he knows. He’s told us that many times. Trouble is, the only thing he knows is Trump...and Trump’s re-election campaign, also known as the keep out of jail campaign. There’s not a coronavirus problem so much as there are rating and polling problems.

Philly could have been Potter County in the span of three weeks. And yes, for that brief but somehow intolerable period, we would have all had to follow the same guidance. This was too much to ask of the American cowboy...he goes it alone. Only he knows.
LDD
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/07/28 12:47:31 (permalink)
Yes, very dynamic situation.  I think if we look at countries/states that have improved their standing or are currently managing their outbreaks that there are some consistent behaviors that help that management.  It is widely accepted that masks work to reduce infection rates, not stop infections.  It is also widely accepted that social distancing works to reduce infection rates.  Proper surface sanitation can only help to reduce infection rates.  These things are not anomalies or far out ideas for infectious control measure.  All we have to do is look at an operating room to see that sanitation and masks are important.  We've understood that since we realized it was germs and viruses making us sick not an angry demi-god.  My view is that a national policy should have been put in place from the outset to standardize practices and to streamline openings of states based on a set of criteria promoted by the federal government and advertised heavily by them.  Instead we let southern states pretend and we've set ourselves back immensely.  I would also like to see a nationalized testing support system so that contact tracing is more efficient and information flows more freely.  Testing becomes useless if it takes 10-14 days to get a result back.  
BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/07/28 17:45:38 (permalink)
MyLiar
 
For one thing, you nationalize the response because some states have access to resources that other states do not. And by “resources” I mean everything from PPE & ventilators, to data & research, to medicine or any other resource required to fight this thing.
 

 
 
Which state(s) didn't receive assistance the Governor requested?  
 
 
MyLiar
 
For example, states like Louisiana simply do not have the same capacity to deal with a pandemic in the way that a state like New York does. And cities like Pittsburgh don’t have the same capacity as NYC. So the role of the federal government is to put all of the cities and states on a level playing field because this virus doesn’t care about state & city boundaries.
 

 
 
What did the Governor of Louisiana request from the federal government?  Like wise, what did the Mayor of Pittsburgh request from the Governor of Pennsylvania?   In turn, what assistance did Wolf  request from the White House that Pittsburgh needed? 
 
MyLiar
 
And now we have school districts that have no idea how to open schools safely in the fall, and instead of providing guidance and assistance, the federal government is simply pressuring them to open for political reasons
 

 
These people are educators.... yet they can't develop a plan???
 
MyLiar
 
And if you think this is a constitutional issue, please cite the language in the constitution that says coordinating the response to a global pandemic is NOT the role of the federal government.
 

 
He's joshing....  right?
 
 
 
 
post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2020/07/28 17:47:55

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/07/28 18:17:48 (permalink)
LDD
 
Trump and his team could have supported Fauci and people would have listened. Instead, they allowed the hounds to bay and now here we are. Americans don’t like to be told but someone at the top could have asked and that would have saved lives. Team Trump is happy to undercut Fauci for whatever reason to the detriment of the American people.
 

 
 
Geee,  Trump choose to keep Dr Falsie on board when Trump could have chosen any of a number of experts to replace him.  I don't know why because it's obvious as hell when Trump follows Dr Falsie's recommendations, Dr Falsies flip flops and runs in another direction. 
 
Soo LDD, would I be mistaken in saying you watched in real time, DOJ Barr testify before one of the most embarrassing hearings, ever conducted by the Democrats?  A hearing where the Dems forbade Barr to answer their pathetic questions?  I yield my time.
post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2020/07/28 18:19:17

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
 
LDD
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/07/28 21:37:58 (permalink)
BeenThereDoneThat.
LDD
 
Trump and his team could have supported Fauci and people would have listened. Instead, they allowed the hounds to bay and now here we are. Americans don’t like to be told but someone at the top could have asked and that would have saved lives. Team Trump is happy to undercut Fauci for whatever reason to the detriment of the American people.
 

 
 
Geee,  Trump choose to keep Dr Falsie on board when Trump could have chosen any of a number of experts to replace him.  I don't know why because it's obvious as hell when Trump follows Dr Falsie's recommendations, Dr Falsies flip flops and runs in another direction. 
 
Soo LDD, would I be mistaken in saying you watched in real time, DOJ Barr testify before one of the most embarrassing hearings, ever conducted by the Democrats?  A hearing where the Dems forbade Barr to answer their pathetic questions?  I yield my time.


Hahahaha, yeah, you would be mistaken.  I was gonna ask you how your buddy Nadler did today?  I heard through the very tangled grapevine that he was brilliant.  Do you concur?  
BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/07/28 21:41:45 (permalink)
Oooopsy.... MLB cancels games.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/...coronavirus/index.html
quote
The Marlins' home opener against the Baltimore Orioles and the New York Yankees game at the Philadelphia Phillies, both scheduled for Monday night, have been postponed, MLB said.



🤔 orrrrr viewer participation not as hoped.... jus'askin'

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
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Porktown
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/07/28 22:10:50 (permalink)
DarDys
Except Fauci was against masks before he was for them. As was WHO and CDC.

Fauci’s statement about not wearing masks was in March. At that time they thought there was minimal community spread and it was contained in Seattle area.

They didn’t want;

A- A run on medical PPE, which happened without their endorsement of masks. Just think if he endorsed toilet paper???

B- Attempt to limit hysteria for what they thought they could contain, which the media ran with. And yes, I agree with those that say the media has made this out to be more than it is.

Obviously Fauci and CDC were wrong on the contained localized spread. Now there is mounds of evidence of face coverings doing SOME good to SLOW the spread. The spread is out of control in a few areas, that is undeniable. Those areas were completely fine when running out of control in NY, because “it can’t happen here”. The idea of masks and limiting people at gatherings, especially indoors (and drunk) are to hopefully keep having other out of control issues. Doctors make medicine from aliens and vaccines are designed to make people give up their religion. That is what the experts say.
BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/07/28 22:12:57 (permalink)
Nadl.....errr LDD

Hahahaha, yeah, you would be mistaken. I was gonna ask you how your buddy Nadler did today? I heard through the very tangled grapevine that he was brilliant. Do you concur?




If you call sinking the democrat party even deeper.... yep Nadler was brilliant. 👍
post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2020/07/29 06:05:21

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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/07/28 23:11:34 (permalink)
Dr Falsie should be careful what he wishes for. Each day Falsie takes more rope and soon will be hanging his own legacy out to dry.

Falsie says he has dedicated his entire life to preparing for such a global pandemic.

Annnnnd, Dr Falsie continues flip flopping annnd dissing the use of hydroxychloroquine.


In other news.... Facebook, Twitter, ect take down reports by doctors on the successful recent use of hydroxychloroquine.


Nope... no deep state around here.

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
 
snagr
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/07/30 10:39:42 (permalink)
eyesandgillz
Not trying to be racist or prejudice but, I would like to see the demographic breakdown of the infections, especially the ones since the beginning of June.  Would be interesting....
 
 



science and nature don't discriminate.  almost all states record this info and make it available.  it is disproportionately affecting hispanic individuals in the southern and southwestern u.s.  
 
in late june, n.b.c. and c.n.n. had reports on new cases in border states being driven by people crossing the border from mexico to get care here because of the terrible conditions and lack of access to care there, but quickly dropped reporting on that.  mexico was about 8 weeks behind us in terms of its peak, so the timing of hot spots along the u.s. border and in southern states that routinely see influxes of migrant workers for crop harvest and other seasonal work (many/most of them legally here) coincides with that.  
 
i don't think it's at all unreasonable for people who are intellectually honest and curious to look at all of the data - micro and macro - and to make inferences based on empirical evidence and repeating patterns and say, "huh, maybe there's something here that helps us to understand the big picture."  i mean this is the very heart of scientific inquiry, is it not? 
 
 
https://update.covid19.ca.gov
Just scroll down for demographic information
 
https://www.azdhs.gov/preparedness/epidemiology-disease-control/infectious-disease-epidemiology/covid-19/dashboards/index.php
Click on the demographics tab
 
https://txdshs.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/ed483ecd702b4298ab01e8b9cafc8b83
Click on the arrow icon on the bottom right a couple times till you get to the demographic dashboard
 
another informative texas graphic:
 Attachments are not available: Download requirements not met
 
http://ww11.doh.state.fl.us/comm/_partners/covid19_report_archive/state_reports_latest.pdf
Demographics on page 3
 
https://covid19.ncdhhs.gov/dashboard/cases
 
https://dph.georgia.gov/covid-19-daily-status-report
Georgia is either missing or intentionally leaving out a key demographic on their dashboard
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

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eyesandgillz
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/07/31 09:45:47 (permalink)
Porktown
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/07/31 11:27:11 (permalink)
eyesandgillz
Interesting article on herd immunity...something to ponder.
 
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-07-29/herd-immunity-seems-to-be-developing-in-mumbai-s-poorest-areas


Interesting in how other cultures deal with things. 
 
From my limited knowledge of India's class system, most of these people would not even be allowed in hospitals.  They are almost thought of as sub-human and most would not be able to afford the hospital bill if they were admitted.  If their sick were being treated in hospitals, would it overrun their system?  
 
A neighbor of mine has recovered from both lungs infected, ICU and ventilator.  Mid 50s in good shape and beyond fatigue and getting his lungs back to normal, is doing fine.  Would definitely have died if left untreated.  I know of about 20 people that have tested positive.  That is the only one hospitalized.
eyesandgillz
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/07/31 16:03:38 (permalink)
Of the handful I know of that have tested positive, none have required hospitalization.  All were self treatmen/quarantine at home cases.  2 of the 5 had very minor, almost allergy like symptoms, pretty much asymptomatic.  The worst case I know of is my cousin's husband who lost 15-20 #'s.  Had all GI symptoms and had the squirts every time he ate something.  I thing fluids were ok as he never needed to get treated for dehydration.  He had multiple underlying conditions.  Duration was about 2 weeks total with 3-5 days of the bad GI symptoms.
 
I think the newer treatments offered are helping and they are doing everything possible to keep people off of ventilators.  The sooner you get the other treatments available, the better off you are.  
snagr
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/07/31 16:33:22 (permalink)
Porktown
 
A neighbor of mine has recovered from both lungs infected, ICU and ventilator.  Mid 50s in good shape and beyond fatigue and getting his lungs back to normal, is doing fine.  Would definitely have died if left untreated.  I know of about 20 people that have tested positive.  That is the only one hospitalized.




just out of curiosity, do you know if he was given the hcq/zinc/azithromycin cocktail or remdesivir treatments?  i have a friend who is a nurse at one of the big upmc hospitals in pittsburgh who said their main course of treatment in the last month or two has been a particular steroid, but i forget the name of it.  
DarDys
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/07/31 19:12:37 (permalink)
Penn Stat.jpg

That’s interesting, there isn’t enough testing (never mind that approximately 60 million in the US have been tested, that’s about 1 in 6) available, but apparently Penn State has/can get 30,000 tests to send to students. Were they hiding them in the basement of Old Main?

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2020/07/31 22:37:36 (permalink)
Sooooooo Dr Falsie is questioned
regarding the successful use of hydroxychloroquine annnnnnnd he says the the results were not tested under a "controlled study" because hydroxychloroquine was used in conjunction with stereoids.

Ummm, yes steroids are used to stop sudden severe inflamation as is found in the lungs of Covid-19 patients sooooo?

Sooooooo whyyyyy is Dr Falsie not supporting and calling for further "control testing" of hydroxychloroquine?

Why doe Dr Falsie blatantly lie, by omission, when he is questioned regarding the success of hydroxychloroquine?

Never have I heard Dr Falsie promote the continued study of a drug that so many other health experts say works.

It's your life... should Dr Falsie be the only 'expert' in charge of it??
post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2020/07/31 23:14:25

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
 
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