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Porktown
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2021/09/24 13:05:21 (permalink)
MyWar
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2021/09/24 13:20:56 (permalink)
Porktown
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html
 
Feel free to post the studies you have.  


Oh I bet this will be good.
Porktown
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2021/09/24 13:21:32 (permalink)
I'll take a wild stab that you are referring to Israel and Cleveland Clinic studies (same that DeSantis points to).  Which at best, is debatable that they equal vaccination.
 
https://www.miamiherald.c.../article254437818.html
MyWar
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2021/09/24 13:31:29 (permalink)
The problem with the right wing sources pushing this lab leak stuff is that if this virus did come from a lab, it brings up a lot of serious questions about how the international community should handle biomedical research. Does it need to be regulated? Should certain types of really dangerous biomedical research be banned altogether? Does there need to be mutually agreed upon and enforced inspection and security protocols?

But the @sshats like Rand Paul who insist on showboating by grilling Fauci on gain of function research have no interest in addressing actual safety issues. They just want to be able to say “Trump was right!”. And they desperately want to discredit Fauci, who was one of the few high profile individuals in this whole thing who truly had no political motivation, and really just wanted to do his job, which is protecting public health and saving lives
post edited by MyWar - 2021/09/24 13:32:39
snagr
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2021/09/24 13:33:25 (permalink)
Porktown
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html
 
Feel free to post the studies you have.  


Already have several times.
Porktown
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2021/09/24 13:36:54 (permalink)
MyWar
Oh I bet this will be good.

No doubt that he will waste half of his afternoon on charts and such.  He is dedicated to his cause.  This dedication has been proven completely false many times during this pandemic, claiming it was over a year ago...  Saying masks do absolutely nothing, proven wrong repeatedly.  This new part of his cause, with the natural immunity, I completely agree that it provides protection.  The issue is that their isn't full peer reviewed studies that public health officials rely on to suggest policy.  There just aren't any that exist that would support "scientifically proven superiority".  The Kentucky study was peer reviewed and noted that natural immunity was less.  I personally would need to see more than one study to conclude that is the case.  I also wouldn't call anything "proven superiority", unless it was a lot better.  The one Kentucky study says 2.34 times the odds of reinfection, which I personally would not call superiority, even if the other way around.
 
The Cleveland Clinic Study, I completely agree with the notion that those previously infected, don't need a vaccine.  Which I have been saying for months on this thread.  To get "scientifically proven superior" from that, is a bit of a stretch.
snagr
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2021/09/24 14:40:30 (permalink)
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1
700K participants. Natural immunity 27x more protective than vax against getting Covid.

https://papers.ssrn.com/s...fm?abstract_id=3838993
“In COVID-19 patients, immune responses were characterized by a highly augmented interferon response which was largely absent in vaccine recipients. Increased interferon signaling likely contributed to the observed dramatic upregulation of cytotoxic genes in the peripheral T cells and innate-like lymphocytes in patients but not in immunized subjects."

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01442-9
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03647-4
Likely to have lifetime immunity.


https://www.medrxiv.org/c.../2021.06.01.21258176v3
Ten months in, zero reinfections.


https://www.cell.com/cell...66-3791(21)00203-2#%20
"Taken together, these results suggest that broad and effective immunity may persist long-term in recovered COVID-19 patients”.

https://www.biorxiv.org/c...01/2021.07.14.452381v1
"Natural infection induced expansion of larger CD8 T cell clones occupied distinct clusters, likely due to the recognition of a broader set of viral epitopes presented by the virus not seen in the mRNA vaccine" Difference between exposure to the whole virus and not just the spike protein.


https://www.medrxiv.org/c.../2021.08.19.21262111v1
"In vaccinated subjects, antibody titers decreased by up to 40% each subsequent month while in convalescents they decreased by less than 5% per month."


https://www.biorxiv.org/c...01/2021.07.29.454333v1
"memory antibodies selected over time by natural infection have greater potency and breadth than antibodies elicited by vaccination."
Porktown
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2021/09/24 15:02:29 (permalink)
As I assumed, your first study, the only of which that makes your claim, is that of the the one Israeli study.  Which as noted in the Miami Herald article posted (and many others), is filled with many uncertainties.  Noted at the very beginning of the study that it isn't peer reviewed and should not be used for clinical guidance.  Our President should have noted it as National Policy?
 
None of the others come close to verifying your claim of "scientific proven superiority".
 
The lifetime immunity article also notes;
Adding to the good news, “the implications are that vaccines will have the same durable effect”
MyWar
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2021/09/24 17:34:59 (permalink)
snagr
https://www.medrxiv.org/c.../2021.08.24.21262415v1
700K participants. Natural immunity 27x more protective than vax against getting Covid.

https://papers.ssrn.com/s...fm?abstract_id=3838993
“In COVID-19 patients, immune responses were characterized by a highly augmented interferon response which was largely absent in vaccine recipients. Increased interferon signaling likely contributed to the observed dramatic upregulation of cytotoxic genes in the peripheral T cells and innate-like lymphocytes in patients but not in immunized subjects."

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01442-9
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03647-4
Likely to have lifetime immunity.


https://www.medrxiv.org/c.../2021.06.01.21258176v3
Ten months in, zero reinfections.


https://www.cell.com/cell...66-3791(21)00203-2#%20
"Taken together, these results suggest that broad and effective immunity may persist long-term in recovered COVID-19 patients”.

https://www.biorxiv.org/c...01/2021.07.14.452381v1
"Natural infection induced expansion of larger CD8 T cell clones occupied distinct clusters, likely due to the recognition of a broader set of viral epitopes presented by the virus not seen in the mRNA vaccine" Difference between exposure to the whole virus and not just the spike protein.


https://www.medrxiv.org/c.../2021.08.19.21262111v1
"In vaccinated subjects, antibody titers decreased by up to 40% each subsequent month while in convalescents they decreased by less than 5% per month."


https://www.biorxiv.org/c...01/2021.07.29.454333v1
"memory antibodies selected over time by natural infection have greater potency and breadth than antibodies elicited by vaccination."


I didn’t go through all of these links, but let’s be honest- I don’t think either one of us has the biomedical background to be actually understand the implications of some of the data presented here. Reading conclusions on the other hand is not that difficult…

I can say that at least a couple of the sources you have linked here are outdated, from before the emergence of the delta variant. So I’m not sure how much value they now have.

The only thing that can be said with absolute certainty is that there is some evidence to suggest that you are correct in saying that previously infected individuals have stronger/longer immunity than vaccinated individuals (the links you posted), and there is also some evidence that suggests you are wrong, and previously infected individuals are less protected against re-infection than vaccinated individuals (the studies linked by porktown from the CDC website).

So the evidence isn’t definitive either way. Which means that if you want to err on the side of caution, then you should get vaccinated whether you’ve been infected or not. And that’s why vaccines have been recommended by the vast majority of the medical community. It’s that simple.

Now if you would rather take your chances and risk being a spreader, that’s fine; but you are doing so with complete disregard for other people. So let’s just be clear about the message you are preaching.
genieman77
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2021/09/24 20:52:25 (permalink)
MyWar


Now if you would rather take your chances and risk being a spreader, that’s fine; but you are doing so with complete disregard for other people. So let’s just be clear about the message you are preaching.



 
that's rich
 
the vax'd may be more super spreaders than unvax'd
They tell me the symptoms are so much less to none for vax'd folks 
(I have no reason not to believe that)
and when I see 35% of Massachusetts  new cases are vax'd folks, one could reasonably presume there are many more that never had symptoms bad enough to see a doc....and may have chocked it up a minor sniffle as allergy or cold .
or a migraine and little tired for a day as just work fatigue 
 
all the while spreading everywhere they go
 
 
..L.T.A.
 
 
pensfan1
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2021/09/24 21:34:44 (permalink)
Another 51 yr old man in our community is Covid positive. He's on a vent and feeding tube. Blood clots in his legs.. Saw a mutal friend at the corner store today and he gave me that grim news. He started having symptoms about 2 weeks ago. He is un-vaxxd and I ask why? I was told he made it a totally political issue. This is the 3rd person I personally know that is probably going to die from a very survivable disease. SmH. Carry on with the discussion of vaxd vs "freedom and choice".
MyWar
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2021/09/25 09:35:47 (permalink)
genieman77
the vax'd may be more super spreaders than unvax'd

 


This has to be one of the most nonsensical things I’ve ever read on this board. Bravo. You deserve some kind of award.
eyesandgillz
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2021/09/25 10:09:04 (permalink)
Maybe not superspreaders but, spreaders at the same rate and viral load as unvaccinated.   Seems breakthrough cases and vaccinated hospitalization are considerably more than being reported as well.  First hand and second hand information from my circle bears this out.
genieman77
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2021/09/25 11:06:21 (permalink)
eyesandgillz
Maybe not superspreaders but, spreaders at the same rate and viral load as unvaccinated. 




 
zaccally 
 
vax'd folks shed their masks and distancing and started living "normal" life again in July.
(restaurants, theaters, clubs/bars, cook outs, fam reunions, conventions,  air travel etc)
If the vax lessens symptoms to little or none, they tell me asymptomatic folks can spread it too  
(no reason not to believe them) 
 
 
Massachusetts coronavirus breakthrough cases rise 3,919 last week, down from the previous week (bostonherald.com)
 
"Breakthrough cases in Massachusetts are making up about 35% of the state’s overall cases."
 
that's pretty significant 
now how many in Ma (and nationwide) don't get sick enough (or at all) to see a doc or get tested and are spreading it?
 
 
'course, that's all "nonsense" to the intellectually dishonest, (or willfully blind) folk
 
..L.T.A.
 
 
 
post edited by genieman77 - 2021/09/25 11:10:35
Porktown
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2021/09/25 11:24:22 (permalink)
A guy that I went to high school with just passed away from Covid, later 40s. A coworker as well, but he was in his early 60s. Both nonvaxed. People are willing to give their lives for a political statement. That is dedication.
r3g3
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2021/09/25 11:25:08 (permalink)
Agree-sad stuff
Porktown
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2021/09/25 11:53:56 (permalink)
genieman77
now how many in Ma (and nationwide) don't get sick enough (or at all) to see a doc or get tested and are spreading it?
 
 

I’d imagine a portion of that 35% are only finding out, due to testing for work or other things requiring tests and not having any symptoms. There are definitely other asymptomatic vaxed that don’t know. Also many unvaxed spreading that don’t know.. Same as those that built natural immunity.

Vaccines don’t keep you from catching the virus. They enable you to fight it off quicker. Same with those that had it prior. You will still be infected and hosting those viral cells until your immune system is able to fight them off and shed them. During at least part of that time, you could be infecting others. Not a bad thing if everyone is immune. It builds more community resistance.
MyWar
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2021/09/25 12:02:41 (permalink)
genieman77

"Breakthrough cases in Massachusetts are making up about 35% of the state’s overall cases."
 
 


I’m not sure that this is the zinger you think it is. What group do you think is responsible for the other 65%?

That’s roughly 2:1 unvaccinated cases to vaccinated cases yet you’re gonna try to claim that unvaccinated individuals are spreading it more?

What kind of logic is this?
bigfoot
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2021/09/25 12:10:17 (permalink)
Porktown
A guy that I went to high school with just passed away from Covid, later 40s. A coworker as well, but he was in his early 60s. Both nonvaxed. People are willing to give their lives for a political statement. That is dedication.

I don't understand how you say people who prefer not to get vaccinated are making a political statement. Some can't get it due to medical issues. My older sister won't get it and she never gets the flu shot either. She just doesn't believe in doing it. Nothing to do with politics. How those of African American heritage? It's my understanding that as a percentage of their population they lead in not wanting to get vaccinated. Different strokes for different folks.

"We should take as a maxim never to be surprised at current difficulties no more than at a passing breeze, because with patience we shall see them disappear. Time changes everything."
St. Vincent de Paul 
Porktown
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2021/09/25 12:17:57 (permalink)
Not saying all Bigfoot. But you are kidding yourself if you don’t see the politics in this.
genieman77
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2021/09/25 13:21:27 (permalink)
MyWar
yet you’re gonna try to claim that unvaccinated individuals are spreading it more?




 
pay attention 
 
"may" be is not a claim they "are" 
 
I will suggest vax'd folks in general at one time (and some still do) had the notion they were "free 'n clear" and threw caution to wind.
something the non vax'd  with sense didn't/don't do.
 
given that,  and what they're telling us,  symptoms of vax'd range from little to none for most healthy folks,  objective reasoning would indicate a very substantial amount are and have been spreading it .
"Perhaps" more than non vax'd given that their symptoms are generally known and not mistaken for a little cold or migraine 
 
 
 
Porktown

I’d imagine a portion of that 35% are only finding out, due to testing for work or other things requiring tests and not having any symptoms. There are definitely other asymptomatic vaxed that don’t know. Also many unvaxed spreading that don’t know.. Same as those that built natural immunity.




 
agree, Pork 
 
as far black folk, endemic among the majority is they don't  trust "the man" 
who they see as trying to "keep them  down" and/or shoot them .
There's no shortage of tinfoil in that group either 
 
and they firmly believe  OJ is innocent too 
 
..L.T.A.
 
pensfan1
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2021/09/25 15:08:54 (permalink)
Porktown
Not saying all Bigfoot. But you are kidding yourself if you don’t see the politics in this.


Totally agree with this☝☝
MyWar
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2021/09/25 15:19:43 (permalink)
genieman77

"may" be is not a claim they "are" 
 


Weak
genieman77
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2021/09/25 15:41:37 (permalink)
intellectually dishonest you are 
 
 

 
lta
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2021/09/25 18:14:15 (permalink)

DeadGator401
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2021/09/25 19:11:11 (permalink)
genieman77
MyWar
yet you’re gonna try to claim that unvaccinated individuals are spreading it more?




 
pay attention 
 
"may" be is not a claim they "are" 
 
I will suggest vax'd folks in general at one time (and some still do) had the notion they were "free 'n clear" and threw caution to wind.
something the non vax'd  with sense didn't/don't do.
 
given that,  and what they're telling us,  symptoms of vax'd range from little to none for most healthy folks,  objective reasoning would indicate a very substantial amount are and have been spreading it .
"Perhaps" more than non vax'd given that their symptoms are generally known and not mistaken for a little cold or migraine 
 
 
 
Porktown

I’d imagine a portion of that 35% are only finding out, due to testing for work or other things requiring tests and not having any symptoms. There are definitely other asymptomatic vaxed that don’t know. Also many unvaxed spreading that don’t know.. Same as those that built natural immunity.




 
agree, Pork 
 
as far black folk, endemic among the majority is they don't  trust "the man" 
who they see as trying to "keep them  down" and/or shoot them .
There's no shortage of tinfoil in that group either 
 
and they firmly believe  OJ is innocent too 
 
..L.T.A.
 



Genie you might not realize this, and I don't believe you did it in an offensive manner, but the phrases in quotes are at the very least poor taste. 
You could have easily just said the black community has no shortage of tinfoil and gotten the point across. 
Porktown
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2021/09/25 20:34:04 (permalink)
Not sure if I am following LDD, I don’t see anything offensive. I’m not a black man, but I do have a huge dong, so some ladies may question if I am.

Not trusting the man and seeing the vaccine as a way to keep them down or some other control measure is real. Why many white folk don’t trust it either and why this is political. With many in a certain party (not typically associated with the black man) pushing it as a “control” thing and “taking away your freedom”, messaging.

Hopefully my quotes were offensive. Dumb people need to be offended at times.
LDD
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2021/09/25 20:57:52 (permalink)
I don't follow you man, I didn't comment. Don't be pulling some BTDT narrative schnozzle on me man...I is who I is!  I'm sure DG would agree
genieman77
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2021/09/25 20:57:53 (permalink)
DeadGator401
 

Genie you might not realize this, and I don't believe you did it in an offensive manner, but the phrases in quotes are at the very least poor taste. 
 




 
I'm not a "politically correct" kind of guy at all times,  that's true, Gator 
 
but I'm missing what's in poor taste using those terms to expand on  what radiates under their tinfoil.
 
..L.T.A.
 
 
 
Porktown
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Re: Coronavirus opinions 2021/09/25 21:57:04 (permalink)
LDD
I don't follow you man, I didn't comment. Don't be pulling some BTDT narrative schnozzle on me man...I is who I is!  I'm sure DG would agree

Sorry LDD. My bad.
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