PGC budget

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mr.crappie
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2020/02/22 17:37:06 (permalink)

PGC budget

All year, people question the finances of the PGC,last month's issue of the pa.game news had their budget in it.Yet I have seen no remarks on this site. Hard to believe that there were no questions.  sam
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    dpms
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    Re: PGC budget 2020/02/24 08:22:52 (permalink)
    Getting any remarks on the hunting boards on this site is like pulling teeth these days. I try to keep the hunting boards active but participation sucks. 

    My rifle is a black rifle
    #2
    psu_fish
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    Re: PGC budget 2020/02/24 08:28:08 (permalink)
    I am indifferent when it comes to the PGC. I barely hunt anymore. Fishing takes up most of my free time.
    #3
    DarDys
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    Re: PGC budget 2020/02/24 09:57:36 (permalink)
    dpms
    Getting any remarks on the hunting boards on this site is like pulling teeth these days. I try to keep the hunting boards active but participation sucks. 


    I’m not sure that actually applies in this case. I don’t get the Game News, so I would not see the budget there. And I don’t have enough interest in the PGC budget to seek it out from other sources (unless our local outdoor writer puts something in their column about it and I happen to read the column that week).

    IMHO, the PGC stopped caring about their customers a long time ago, so they are going to do with their budget what the current leadership wants to do with it regardless of what those who pay for it think or want.

    An example is the regional land managers deciding the best way to spend their labor. Locally, the land workers were told to stop mowing any paths in the pheasant stocking areas, even though some of it is head high and not conducive to even walking through, let alone effectively hunting. When the worker cut some paths, even though they did it on their own time and used their own fuel (but did use PGC equipment), they were threatened with termination, not because of not following orders, but because cutting those paths cut down on the seeds available for the song bird population.

    Another example would be another regional land manager ignoring the recommendation of the local WCO and biologist, along with the request of hunters to remove some of the autumn olive trees (which provide no food) from a pheasant hunting area because they had grown to a height that was impeding hunting. The requests were made year after year, but were turned down, even if the interested hunters were willing to volunteer to do the work. The rationale was that the trees provided safe nesting areas for song birds and would not be touched as long as they ran the area. About 2/3 of the reasonable hunting area has been lost due to the impenetrable olive trees. But the song birds are doing just fine.

    So looking at the budget would do no good except to raise my blood pressure unnecessarily.

    The poster formally known as Duncsdad

    Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
    #4
    bubbaman
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    Re: PGC budget 2020/02/24 10:52:18 (permalink)
    I agree they are always crying about lack of funds, cutting back on this or that , with all the sportsman groups in the sate , it's an untapped resource , im sure they would get a lot of volunteers to help with projects if they would just get off their high horse and accept the help, but maybe keeping the agency in the red is their idea of a way to get control of license fee increases , but with so much corruption in our state agencies and bad performance, you can't just give a blank check and say do what you think is best, when it shows they cant handle money , like the recent audit that found numerous money accounts they said they where unaware of . Who has money in accounts they don't know about or forgot, especially when it really is not yours. do  they need a raise in license fees, yes  I feel they do , but not a blank check like they want by being able to set increases themselves 
    #5
    dpms
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    Re: PGC budget 2020/02/24 13:22:28 (permalink)
    Like most state agencies, crushing pension and benefit obligations are their biggest expense. This is why I oppose any license increase. I am done supporting any tax and/or fee increase in this state until there is a massive pension overhaul. In the private sector, when a company struggles to meet pension obligations, several things often happen. The company files for bankruptcy, sells, or the retirees lose part or all of their pensions. In the public sector, there is special protection and the taxpayers are the ones getting screwed. 
     
    For the record, I understand that the PGC has no control over pension obligations, but as a state agency, they are tied to the state's policies. 
    post edited by dpms - 2020/02/24 15:20:29

    My rifle is a black rifle
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    BeenThereDoneThat.
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    Re: PGC budget 2020/02/24 14:26:48 (permalink)
    I didn't respond because I thought, I would mind my own business (😏), but since you asked.


    Let em eat [crow] cake or as the ole hunter once said.... they made their [crow feather] bed, let em lie in it.

    Perhaps Mr. Gary Alt should be consulted..... for a small stipend, of course.
    post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2020/02/24 14:34:08

    Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
     
     
     
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    #7
    dpms
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    Re: PGC budget 2020/02/24 15:21:03 (permalink)
    The PGC is also one of the best funded game agencies in the country, currently. 

    My rifle is a black rifle
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    r3g3
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    Re: PGC budget 2020/02/24 20:02:59 (permalink)
    Most insolvent Govt Pensions that I encountered in my political elected days are now overburdensome because the 
    govt itself  failed to comply within the guidelines of its own long haul contractual contributions.
    One I know of went so far as to take employee contributions for years and incorporate them into the 'general fund' resulting in nice appearing end of year budgets but little to no balances in the 'pension fund"-- those were good fiscal years and they got away with it.
    Nowadays those empty funds are an annual drag on contractual Govt  responsibilities, and all too often kinda blamed on the employees rather than the Govt agencies causing the near default in underfunded obligations.
    The present elected or appointed managers all too often say 'welll weee didn't do that it was done decades ago'.
    Not good enough for ineptitude over decades. 
    Also a real big drag on the funds was the Govt itself' borrowing' from the funds thus never allowing for the actuarial predicted  interest to build and make them solvent- All the while with employees having their rightful contributions deducted weekly over their whole careers.
    As one whos pension is VERY close to  solvency I must say it was only allowed to happen by virtue of an employee Lawsuit against the Govt agency responsible and clear mismanagement readily proven wherein the Court mandated huge annual contributions by said Agency-
    Also blamed each and every year on the employees by most casual observers.
     
    post edited by r3g3 - 2020/02/24 20:06:02
    #9
    CAPTAIN HOOK
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    Re: PGC budget 2020/03/05 16:01:28 (permalink)
    Seems they have money to hire professional snipers to wipe out herds of deer . Wonder what that entails as far as total costs ? Imagine paying to get rid of 1500 deer carcasses plus pay to have them shot by pros. Bad thing is the problem will still exists even after all that !  
     
    I'd like to see the estimated budget costs for this ......just for curiosity.  
     
    It's a mess and I'm not criticizing ....yet ....just curious . 
    #10
    BeenThereDoneThat.
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    Re: PGC budget 2020/03/05 21:23:32 (permalink)
    But Capt. look at the pretty paper work the PGC got with the hunters money.


    FINAL REPORT
    2019 Deer Management Program
    Mt Lebanon, Pennsylvania
    by
    White Buffalo, Inc.
    27 February 2019
    INTRODUCTION
    Mt Lebanon contains a matrix of dense suburban and commercial development interspersed with
    a spectrum of parks. The absence of any comprehensive deer management allowed the local
    deer population to increase to a level incompatible with some land use and human activities prior
    to our involvement. Although deer physical condition is not an issue, there is ongoing concern
    regarding numerous deer-vehicle collisions and other deer related issues. This is the fourth year
    in which White Buffalo, Inc. has implemented deer population management program within the
    municipal boundaries. We harvested 115, 55, 57, and 44 deer during the 2016, 2017, 2018, and
    2019 programs, respectively.
    METHODS
    Pre-baiting was conducted from 22 January – 12 February 2019. Sharpshooting efforts were
    conducted from 13-25 February 2019. Eleven days of fieldwork were required to achieve the
    harvest of 44 deer. We followed the operations protocol outlined in the contract and PGC Permit
    #45195. Twelve sites were available throughout the area of operation. Three previous locations
    were not utilized during the 2019 program due to lack of activity in 2018. One new private site
    was added.
    RESULTS
    We expended ~134 person-hours to harvest 44 deer (this does not include travel time, site
    preparations and set up, or baiting). The entire data set generated from harvested deer is
    represented in the spreadsheet entitled "Mt Lebanon, PA- Deer Harvest: 13-25 February 2019”
    (Appendix A). The overall harvest demographics are summarized in Table 1. Harvest by day is
    summarized in Table 2. Harvest results from specific sites ranged from a high of 7 deer to a low of 1 for sites where effort was allocated. Twenty-eight deer (64%) were harvested from private
    properties while 16 (36%) were removed from the four public properties available.
    Table 1. Sex and age class of deer harvested in Mount Lebanon, PA from 13-25 February 2019.
    AGE # MALE (%) # FEMALE (%) # COMBINED
    Yearling/Adult 19 (43%) 15 (34%) 34 (77%)
    Fawns 4 (9%) 6 (14%) 10 (23%)
    Total 23 (52%) 21 (48%) 44 (100%)
    Table 2. Number of deer harvested by day during the 11 days of field operations.
    DATE
    #
    Harvested DATE
    #
    Harvested DATE
    #
    Harvested DATE
    #
    Harvested
    2/13/19 5 2/16/19 10 2/19/19 6 2/23/19 3
    2/14/19 3 2/17/19 1 2/21/19 6 2/25/19 0
    2/15/19 4 2/18/19 4 2/22/18 2
    Harvest by Deer Management Zone
    To allow for a more comprehensive population management program, we summarized all the
    harvest data by management zone. Zone 1 was delineated as all land west of Cedar and Cochran
    to the municipal boundary. Zone 2 was composed of all land east of Cedar and Cochran, west of
    Scott Road, and north of Beadling Road and Mt Lebanon Boulevard to the northern municipal
    boundary. Zone 3 was south of Beadling Road and Mt Lebanon Boulevard, west of Castle
    Shannon Boulevard, to the southern municipal boundary. Zone 4 covered land east of Scott
    Road/Castle Shannon Boulevard to the municipal boundary. Harvest breakdown based on zone
    for the sharpshooting effort is summarized in Table 3.
    Table 3. Deer harvest by Zone Mount Lebanon, PA 13-25 February 2019.


    🙄 There's four more pages if anyone is interested 😒

    ☝ BTW I have this report too..... all 92 pages. Happy to PM to anyone interested. Fees may apply😁


    The Pennsylvania Game Commission’s Collapse of the Deer Herd,
    Mismanagement of Habitat and Wildlife Resources,
    Resulting Impacts to Rural Communities and the Commonwealth, and
    Violations of Title 34 State Law and The Pennsylvania Constitution
    An Investigation in Fulfillment of Requests by Former and Current State Officials:
    • Office of the Governor •
    • House Game and Fisheries Committee •
    • Members of the Senate and House of Representatives •
    • Board of Game Commissioners •
    By
    John Eveland
    Forester, Wildlife Biologist, and Ecologist
    April 17, 2018
    Prepared for
    • The Office of the Governor •
    Governor Tom Wolf
    • Pennsylvania House of Represent
    post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2020/03/05 21:29:17

    Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
     
     
     
      Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
     
    #11
    CAPTAIN HOOK
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    Re: PGC budget 2020/03/06 15:22:23 (permalink)
    Wonder what the overall costs was ? No report on that I see.  217 deer taken out in four years an avg. of 54 deer a year ! What in the hill is White Buffalo Inc ?
     
    No wonder I can't shoot a deer they all moved in town !
     
    Mismanagement of Habitat and Wildlife Resources ?
    #12
    BeenThereDoneThat.
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    Re: PGC budget 2020/03/06 20:41:09 (permalink)
    Capt. I have no idea the cost but, if ya have nothing to do on a rainy day or be needing some reading material while, seated upon the great porcelain throne or just sitting on a stump, waiting for a shot at an "Alt Hatrack" (should one walk from behind a tree)...... perhaps ya might find this info of some interest.

    It certainly brought back memories of sitting in the Rocky Grove VFD and listening to Gary Alt (a legend in his own mind).

    https://www.pgc.pa.gov/Wi...oryoftheWhitetail.aspx

    Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
     
     
     
      Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
     
    #13
    CAPTAIN HOOK
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    Re: PGC budget 2020/03/08 13:05:38 (permalink)
    That's a good read and I guess the PGC has heard both gripes over the many years on restricting hunting some years and over allegations of antlerless hunting other years. Today with more posted or developing property, less hunters, and warmer weather conditions I think deer management will again be challenged with many more ups and downs. Plus with the CWD issues ...who knows what's on the horizon for Pa. deer . 
    #14
    BeenThereDoneThat.
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    Re: PGC budget 2020/03/08 18:11:30 (permalink)
    Appears to me reality matters not, in the decision making.

    Unless your real life experience agrees with their scientific data, they could care less about your opinion. They are highly educated scientist while you and me, merely street smart and block wise.

    We live it and we see it. They dream about it, then write about it.

    While we've seen many changes over the years, the article certainly shows the PGC has not changed their method, of blowing smoke.

    With exception of migratory and antlerless, my license cost me nothing. Didn't apply last season and not likely to apply this season. Two years ago I bought a new varmit rifle and have not spent a dime since.

    I figure the next scientific move will be selling "bait permits", as is done here in the deep south. Imagine, all those permits at a half C-note or more. 🤑


    Anyways Cap. good luck this coming hunting season but in the meantime, good times and tight lines. 🎣

    Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
     
     
     
      Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
     
    #15
    thunderpole
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    Re: PGC budget 2020/03/11 14:25:03 (permalink)
    I agree they don't care what the people what , they know everything....they do so much studying non of them have time to hunt. The annual waterfowl meeting was a week ago. Pgc asked for the hunters comments , thousands came in bottom line they claim 90 something percent of waterfowl killed are local but can't explain where there at in season. But won't extend the season longer because we can't kill "to many" migrators???? Yet Canada gets a free pass for 3 months banging away ... absolutely outrageous why ask the hunters anything, why hold a press conference if it's just .....o well to bad we make the rules thanks for calling off work to be here your opinions don't mean ****

    I'd rather be lucky then good,but im to good to be lucky
    #16
    CAPTAIN HOOK
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    Re: PGC budget 2020/03/11 19:16:09 (permalink)
    Use to be the federal boys set up the length and limits of duck seasons as I recall but the state gets to figure how best to use them ....most times they vote split seasons ...I believe they get a few extra hunting days doing that. I haven't hunted ducks in years but was very avid back in the day so I stand corrected.
     
    Like you say they put limits on us in Pa. but other states have a blast shooting away on flight waterfowl. I remember a time we in Pa. were not allowed to shoot Snow Geese but down in Texas they were allowed 3 or more a day.... same year ! Go figure ?
     
    Canada just massacres the ducks up there ....they claim America can get the scraps ....I heard this from Canadians while fishing ...somehow I believe it .
     
     

     

    Pics of wild ducks I've taken on Shenango.....yea these mixed ones in the second photo show up almost every year ....I've seen as many as 4-5 pairs over the years ....and they fly and spook very fast ! Got lucky this day and finally got a closer picture after many missed attempts. Have no idea about them just some kind of mix I've never seen anywhere else but the Shenango river . 
    post edited by CAPTAIN HOOK - 2020/03/11 19:37:58
    #17
    BeenThereDoneThat.
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    Re: PGC budget 2020/03/11 22:00:54 (permalink)
    Capt those birds likely come from wild ducks, breeding with domestic ducks.

    Not uncommon and those offspring can continue breeding.

    Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
     
     
     
      Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
     
    #18
    BeenThereDoneThat.
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    Re: PGC budget 2020/03/11 22:05:54 (permalink)
    Speaking of breeding, ya know why Hybrid fish cannot reproduce?

    Because Mother Nature saw wildlife biologist in the making.

    sssst... btdt original🙉

    Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
     
     
     
      Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
     
    #19
    thunderpole
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    Re: PGC budget 2020/03/13 11:25:47 (permalink)
    Yes the feds control our regs for waterfowl, we can start ducks as early as September 24 and end as late as January 31st with one split but the season is set up badly for harvest numbers, they say one thing then contradict themselves the next. If there's no fronts in November we don't get the birds and there's the 2 weeks wasted in rifle season I hunt it if I find birds but typically I'm deer hunting in a teeshirt. I really enjoy hunting ducks it's my favorite just a shame we can't change it up for the better........ they also said the pyme goose blinds had 90 something people hunt shot like 4000 something times lol and the city boys killed 3 confermed sandhills lol 1 was cited

    I'd rather be lucky then good,but im to good to be lucky
    #20
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