Helpful ReplyState of the Lake

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hot tuna
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Re: State of the Lake 2019/12/21 16:11:14 (permalink)
Rg, I've been told the fishing has been outstanding since I vacated my season dock 2 springs ago. I believe the boats I know for this to be true. The stocking reductions have helped them and it's not because lack of forage or hitting shinny objects. I also believe the harvests out there with the past reductions take a toll on the returns of a tributary, which you may be noticing, I haven't wet a line in 2 years up there now.
In 2-3 years though the boats will be targeting Lakers again to get bent rods and brown trout will be the premier lake draw .

If the tribs get quiet again, I'll be back.

"whats that smell like fish oh baby" .. J. Kaukonen
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Lucky13
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Re: State of the Lake 2019/12/23 09:10:49 (permalink)
Steve LaPan said at the Pulaski bait meeting that he was not sure why the run had been only adequate, speculated that the numbers could have been impacted by harvest on the lake, but was encouraged that the run into the hatchery had been sufficient for the egg take.  Consensus of the majority of people that are there a lot is that the steelhead run was upset by weather,  right after Columbus day the monsoons kicked in for a couple of weeks with the associated 4000 cfs, immediately followed by snow.  Indian summer did not happen this year, we didn't hear Randy Jones talking about fall fish in the active bubbly spots, the fish that ran went right to winter mode, and fly swingers like 2Bob and I had poor success.  I fished a couple of times across from bead/eggers who were having great fishing, at least for an hour here and a half hour there.
 
I thought the king number looked higher that what I anticipated, but they are not applying then 20% redux to the original number , they are reducing the last year's number by 20%, so the cumulative cut is more like 50% than 60%.
 
I know Lake Trout are just big dogs, but they are one of the two native predators, and they are a Federal priority for indicating restoration of the lake, and also a Canadian priority.  I'm surprised I'm not hearing a clamor to dump foreign west coast sammins into Lake George, all you have there are lakers and those tiny little landlocks!   
post edited by Lucky13 - 2019/12/23 09:12:49
#62
hot tuna
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Re: State of the Lake 2019/12/23 09:56:53 (permalink)
Well, lake trout are all natural reproduction with no stocking in lake George. The lake is completely LOADED with them. Landlocks are stocked but not in great numbers and the reproduction levels are low so they are just a bonus fish.

With a lifespan of a lake trout and a great forage base , I do not understand why they are stocked on Ontario at all

"whats that smell like fish oh baby" .. J. Kaukonen
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Lucky13
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Re: State of the Lake 2019/12/23 13:01:53 (permalink)
They occupy a different niche in then ecosystem than the other species.  They are a benthic predator, where the other introduced fishes are pelagic predators.  It is a long term program to attempt to get them re[producing naturally, which they did for thousands of years.  And they are  Federal priority; if you tell the feds to take their lake trout and go home, they may end their lampericiding program, too, and then the whole ball of wax could go away.
 
30 K LLS and 30 K Rainbows is hardly low numbers for an inland lake that has such limited public access. 
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r3g3
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Re: State of the Lake 2019/12/23 17:44:55 (permalink)
"Adequate"
If ya were snagging the choke points and blind runs yea, "adequate"- but tell that to the two guys I met upriver from way  down South who were just finishing up their annual several day trip to the SR and had yet to "catch" a fish.
The word for  fisherfolks is " Sux".
Yea- I know- there are lots of real reasons for things being the way they are -I get that and understand it-  just don't pizz down my back with "adequate".
Gee it don't take a wizard to figure the boats daily takes include all the  fisherfolks and the captains and mates -day after day and then they don't understand why the river was only 'adequate' after the needed drops in stocking- OH but its OK cause the hatchery is full.
 
Sometimes the attitudes  involved are so very apparent by a mere word.
Maybe that guy should go for dropping the stocking by another 20% to help the bait right now, and limiting the "adequate' take on the lake to one fish a day. PER FISHERPERSON.
Seems to be a bit of a issue with shore fishermen IMHO-Lake folks are real happy with lots of fish - lots of fish got to the hatchery so those folks are happy.
As for Steel, they didnt run with the very few Kings as they generally do, but then perhaps they did, in the same percentage as before. With so few Kings it just didn't look like Steel ran too if thats the case.
Don't even get me going on Hos.
What Hos??
 
"adequate" 
 
post edited by r3g3 - 2019/12/23 18:20:30
#65
Lucky13
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Re: State of the Lake 2019/12/24 10:06:26 (permalink)
IF they need the fish in the river for egg take, they will "**** down your leg" and close the river, as they have closed the LFZ in the past to insure adequate fish for egg take.  The Fish Community Objectives are written for the Kings in the open lake, and the steelhead in the tributaries, and despite the Pulaski Chamber of Commerce emphasis on the jalorme season, DEC is mainly concerned with maintaining the stocks in the hatchery.  If you were there the second week in September , there were tons of cohos and they were around right up until the UFZ closed, although most were above the UFZ and therefore unreachable.  Cohos have to remain in the hatchery for a year longer for yearlings and 6 months longer for fall fingerlings, so they will be limited to the 300K being stocked now, because they cost about the same as 3 million kings to raise.  And according to Troy Creasy, who is about as knowledgeable about both the lake and river as anybody up there, there was a huge run of kings in the first week of September that had run the lower river during the Labor Day tube release, and then ran right to the dam, so they were also unavailable.  Maybe they went so high because that was the only place fish survived the "dope 'em and rope 'em" "good runs" of the past few falls to reproduce naturally.
 
According to what I have been told, if I catch a fish and give it to you, that counts as a fish against both our limits.  So if the captain and mate give their fish to the clients, the daily limit is exceeded by the clients.  The west end operators who I have spoken with say this is NOT a practice here, but who knows what goes on out on the big pond.
 
The locals with a lot of experience are attributing the lack of a concentrated run of warm water fall steelhead to the weather.  Recent reports from DSR and from Altmar would indicate a fair presence of fish in the river at this point, just not the jumpy players of October.  It is a nymphers game now, but persistence is rewarded once in a while.  And I am sure Clint will hit 4 or a half dozen up under the hemlocks the next time he ventures out.
#66
r3g3
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Re: State of the Lake 2019/12/24 11:02:08 (permalink)
Agreed on the early King push- was there for it and enjoyed it- but it was not a great run- just an early push for a couple of days that did not seem to repeat itself throughout the season.
NOT  old-style HOT by any means or repeated in any very noticeable manner.
Hos - yes a push early - as often happens -  missed it- and that was generally IT for Hos without a noticeable number thereafter.
Searched  for them later in all the right spots w/o results.
Perhaps thats our future on the SR for upcoming seasons..
A few early pushes compared to the repeated runs of the past - hit or miss- and fish running right through to high bedding areas of their ancestors- would explain the few deads and lack of beds observed in Oct. upper mid river.
Everything running real high to 'natural' beds may be the future  as the possibility of 'naturals' predominating may be whats happening with necessary stocking reductions.
We have discussed the possibility of naturals vs stocked becoming different in their patterns in the past.
Looks like naturals- this time- ran early and that was pretty much it. Hard to tell w/o the clipping.
Be interesting to see if this repeats next season.
Might change how we plan our fishing trips in the future.
EARLY CROWDS may result changing the circus  time to the first week of Sept lol.
Glad to see Steel pickup as time went on- thats bout the only good news I have heard of all season and reports indicate its not just a flash in the pan.
Still think 'adequate' is a crock.
SR is a changing fishery - understand it but don't have to like it.
I will continue up there no matter what.  Many will not.
I do know those late season days of Hos, Kings and Steel on the same days in the same runs are OVER.
post edited by r3g3 - 2019/12/24 11:16:06
#67
hot tuna
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Re: State of the Lake 2019/12/24 11:43:49 (permalink)
Let me ask this question, unrelated to the topic but one you brought up.
If I catch a fish and put it in a cooler, then you catch a fish and put it in the cooler, did we just give each other 2 fish ?
I'd say not.
So now our limit is 3 each and we have 6 fish in the cooler, are we over our limit ?
Again, I'd say not.
End of the trip and I have a filet board on the boat so I filet all 6 fish. I do the right thing and put 3 in 1 bag and 3 in another. You get ready to leave and I decided I don't want my fish so I give them to you to have. Now you have all 6 to take home. Is this still illegal ?
Once again, I think not.
With being to lazy to research because I'm being hypothetical, I think there is a regulation on how many " processed " you can have in possession at 1 time and I think its double your limit but I'm just guessing..

If you think this practice is not happening, your naive...

"whats that smell like fish oh baby" .. J. Kaukonen
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r3g3
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Re: State of the Lake 2019/12/24 12:24:31 (permalink)
Remember reading a story of an old Deer camp where 6 guys went in each year and came out with 6 deer each year--same train of thought.
I think that if they went to the old Nova Scotia way of monitoring Atlantics with tags for each fish it may help. Once the Capt and mates tags are used -OVER.
If the fisherfolks mix and match- well -they paid the price no mater whos turn it was in the seat.
Cant have a warden in each boat.
 
post edited by r3g3 - 2019/12/24 12:28:21
#69
hot tuna
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Re: State of the Lake 2019/12/24 13:39:52 (permalink)
Well, there is a difference and hunting tags now reflect as such. It is totally illegal to shoot a deer without a proper tag. Something I would never encourage or feel is ethical. Just because my son was in the woods and didn't fill his buck tag, I was not shooting the 11pt beast that laid down in front of me after I filled my tag with an 8 pt. just because he had a tag. Anterless tags are transferable, not buck tags.

If I'm fishing with someone and they limit out but I am not , why can't I continue to fish and give him my catch ?
That's where the question comes into play and who plays or not the ethical card when $$$ is on the line.
If I was a guide today and my clients wanted me to catch my limit, I absolutely would.

"whats that smell like fish oh baby" .. J. Kaukonen
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r3g3
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Re: State of the Lake 2019/12/24 13:55:16 (permalink)
You hit the nail on the head with 'dollars on the line'. IMHO
If the lake fisherfolks are anything like the SR fishing folks 'ethics' are few and far between.
Unfortunately.
 
Not to start another argumentative issue but--
Ya might think that with all the 'global warming' talk we wouldn't be having a fishery issue caused by recent super cold conditions on the lake.
Food for thought---
 
Please don't misinterpret recent posts- I have great respect for the Fishery folks in their constant efforts concerning this fishery we all think so much of.
 
Merry X Mass to all
post edited by r3g3 - 2019/12/24 14:40:50
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hot tuna
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Re: State of the Lake 2019/12/28 22:16:49 (permalink)
So food for thought.

Why not make a boat limit ?
Let's say 10 salmon, 3 trout ?
The per man limit remains in effect unless you hit the boat limit.
I guess this seems to difficult to understand if the tribs returns are dropping and the stocking is being reduced to an all time low.

"whats that smell like fish oh baby" .. J. Kaukonen
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Lucky13
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Re: State of the Lake 2019/12/29 12:53:37 (permalink)
The charter guys on the west end think the solution is 5 silvers per person to reduce predation and help the alewife recover some.  And some of them want the SR closed when the kings are spawning.
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r3g3
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Re: State of the Lake 2019/12/29 15:54:07 (permalink)
They could start a war-----
post edited by r3g3 - 2019/12/29 15:55:29
#74
hot tuna
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Re: State of the Lake 2019/12/29 15:59:58 (permalink)
Well you know the lake will run the fishery. I just think tough times are ahead for at least the next 3 salmon runs in the tribs . It will hit the lake hard by 2003 then everyone will be crying wolf.

As you may tell, I'm a meat hunter. Not a wasteful so called sportsman but one who will harvest the foods we will consume.
I'm all for keeping your regulations rights as long as it goes towards a purpose.
Fertilizer is not a sportsman's purpose in harvesting game imo.

"whats that smell like fish oh baby" .. J. Kaukonen
#75
r3g3
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Re: State of the Lake 2019/12/29 17:11:50 (permalink)
Could you possibly imagine the fiscal impact on the Pulaski area with no river fishery ??
Gas stations, eateries, hotel/motels, tackle shops, DSR, guide services, etc. are all generally business on a certain profit percentage and one bad season will close them.
Also the 'down the line' services like grocery stores, package stores and local tax base impacts leading to property tax issues  will be severely impacted.
When business leaves suddenly the homeowners are stuck with a larger percentage of school and local tax responsibilities not to mention some will move from the area with fewer job opportunities when the fishery closes leaving even fewer to have to pony up for local expenses.
Look at any community where a major employer has left.
State will loose several thousand fishing tag sales as well.
When and if the fishery responds positively in a few years these places will be gone and others may not be so quick to invest in such a volatile environment at least in the short run. 
How many will go back w/o motels or eateries for a few more years.
Also gotta remember that many fisherfolks go up and spend a day on the lake and several on the river- many simply wont be back thus hurting the lake fishery pros to some degree as well..
Many of these places also serve the winter snowmobile community as well as fisherfolks- most don't see that but as a past part time resident I would say its sizeable- but not large enough to keep those places going w/o both the fishery and snow folks.
Just another group who will be gone---
Good luck with all that.
( some of us live a couple of miles from SALT and have big fish alternatives.  LOL)
(sold my boat and got the Pulaski place-might hafta reverse the process)
post edited by r3g3 - 2019/12/29 17:49:53
#76
hot tuna
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Re: State of the Lake 2019/12/29 17:53:44 (permalink)
Trevor, the internet is keeping the fishers hungry. The sleds are filling the tug as always. It's really a winter wonderland up there , I've stayed in many lodges years past that wanted fishers, not sledders.
Total 180 now.
The money to be made is winter. The money spent is spring, summer and fall.

"whats that smell like fish oh baby" .. J. Kaukonen
#77
r3g3
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Re: State of the Lake 2019/12/29 19:00:40 (permalink)
Family went X country skiing for bout a week up on Tug every winter I had my NY place.
Wasn't a bad daily drive from Richland where my place was near the river.
Your right- its great.
Most sledders I know from Ct have been there often- many have stayed in Pulaski and run up daily..
Really different going past a gas station and seeing a couple of dozen sleds in line at the pumps and the heavily travelled road sized sled trails crossing the paved roads.
Fella told me he does Poker Runs up there that are a hundred miles long for the day and heavily attended.
A part of the area sporting adventures most fisherfolks never see.
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hot tuna
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Re: State of the Lake 2019/12/29 21:06:54 (permalink)
Tailwater is booked solid on weekends once the trails open. Last time we stayed there were easily 75 -100 sleds in their huge lot.

"whats that smell like fish oh baby" .. J. Kaukonen
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Lucky13
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Re: State of the Lake 2019/12/31 08:51:29 (permalink)
Cannons and Mid river both rent campsites or trailer sites on a seasonal basis, and at least some of those folks are using the camp as a "home away from the city" in the summer.  The smart businessmen up there are always looking for buffers.  If Mike at the Midriver had to live on income from fishers alone, he'd have gone under this past fall, his cancellation list was on a couple of sheets after the interweb lit up about the poor run.
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r3g3
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Re: State of the Lake 2019/12/31 10:15:35 (permalink)
Don't think too many business up there live on  one type of customer alone- but a combo .
That said the profit margins are significantly diminished when ever one is taken out of the pile.
 
In other words if the other sources didnt increase and ya add in a couple of percent to his last  annual gross for normal cost increases all of those cancellations were right outa pocket.
 How many years in a row can a business take that kinda hit and still want to do the work and effort and put money into a shrinking business??
I don't like writing this  stuff---
 
post edited by r3g3 - 2019/12/31 10:37:28
#81
troutbum21
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Re: State of the Lake 2020/01/01 14:29:41 (permalink)
While I enjoy reading all the posts about the state of the lake I must admit I'm a bit confused.  Was in not the initial goal of stocking salmonids in Lake Ontario to control the alewife population?  Now that the biomass is down by design through management or nature complaints abound about the impact it has had on fishing past, present and perhaps future.  If it's a shear numbers thing of countless hook-ups per day for it to be worth the time, effort and money then many are going to be disappointed.  I for one will continue to make trips to Lake O and her tributaries because I love the sport.  To me it's no different than fishing local creeks or some of the other outstanding rivers in New York (also the nearby Housatonic in CT).
Someday's you are a hero and others a zero but I'd rather be on the river than sitting on the couch.  
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hot tuna
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Re: State of the Lake 2020/01/01 15:42:55 (permalink)
Tb,
I have to side with fichy on this aspect.
For me it's not numbers but it is about expectations vs income/ costs.
I don't have disposable income expecting to catch a fish or 2 amongst hoards of people.
If there's plenty of fish, ( salmon ) then the snaggers can have their space and the fishers theirs too.
When it becomes a fight for fish, well they win over me and I'll look towards calmer waters.
It's far different than trout fishing a stream, it's combat fishing imo..
I wouldn't be going clamming in RI if there were no more clams to harvest.
The alewife control was a basis for the salmon introduction as a sport fishery, it's now becoming a science project.

"whats that smell like fish oh baby" .. J. Kaukonen
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troutbum21
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Re: State of the Lake 2020/01/02 08:36:01 (permalink)
HT, I don't disagree when you refer to the behavior, it's the only fishery (salmon run) I have ever witnessed such despicable actions.  Unfortunately that's not what's on the table.
It seems the issue of alewife control was secondary to the cash cow that's been created.  If alewife control was the objective then they have achieved their goal either by accident or design.  In doing so the salmonid fishing had to take a hit and with it the cash cow is now on life support.  You can't be successful in one area without it having an impact in others.
     
post edited by troutbum21 - 2020/01/03 10:54:23
#84
r3g3
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Re: State of the Lake 2020/01/02 10:19:50 (permalink)
Likely never anticipated the fishery to have become the huge' cash cow' that it became-now its an important issue to the states in most fishery considerations.
 
I feel very fortunate to have experienced the Salmon River  - even before DSR- in its heyday.
One may well hope it could someday be restored to that former fishery.
I firmly believe that ,if it can be done, the NY fishery personell are the ones who can do it.
post edited by r3g3 - 2020/01/02 15:43:28
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Lucky13
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Re: State of the Lake 2020/01/03 08:31:21 (permalink)
The only thing that will return the fishery for predators to its former glory is an explosion in the prey populations.  And that will take an explosion in phytoplankton and zooplankton, unlikely unless we abandon all clean water efforts, and fishers are not the only ones using the lake, ,most of the other users do not want a turbid mess out there no matter how it effects the fishery.
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troutbum21
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Re: State of the Lake 2020/01/03 12:51:44 (permalink)
In addition to clean water legislation the introduction of invasive mollusks has impacted the ecosystem.  As I said in an earlier post the days of countless hook-ups may very well be behind us.  
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