Helpful ReplyHot!Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs

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Steelhead281
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2017/10/24 21:01:41 (permalink)

Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs

How does this idea grab you to deal with the problem of stream access for fisherman to catch fish that have been bought and paid for by taxes and license fees balanced with the private property rights of land owners.  Using public funds to supply fish to private clubs or landowners seems to be an inappropriate use of that money.
 
Said another way, certain people are profiting from private water.  Those people are guides, landowners being paid high royalties, private clubs charging dues.  They only profit because there are public fish present.  Is it good use of public funds to subsidize the business ventures of guides, landowners and private fishing clubs
 
Here are some ideas to deal with the inequities. 
1. Guides who accesses private waters must pay an annual license fee of $10,000 to help compensate the state for the fish harvested and/or injured in the course of their occupation.  Guides caught one time fishing private water without a private water license loose their guide license for 5 years or suffer 6 mos in prison.
2. If waters are private, fishing may occur only when escorted by the landowner,
3. On private waters only the land owner and immediate family are permitted to fish for public or stocked fish
4. Pass a law that automatically designated private/posted waters as Nursery Waters there by prohibiting fishing.
 
The goal is to protect the landowners right to restrict access to his property if he chooses.  No one should be forced to allow public access on his land.  All of these ideas would allow owners to restrict access.  At the same time the public has a right to protect their resources such as stocked fish.  It is not practical to prevent fish from swimming in private waters but those fish can be protected from those who have commercialized their harvest. 
 
What do you think?  If these ideas are interesting or valid. help spread the word and get the movement going.  NO PUBLIC ASSISTANCE TO PRIVATE LANDOWNERS, GUIDES OR PRIVATE FISHING CLUBS. 

 
Let's start to hear the roar of public outcry against subsidizing private businesses.
 
 
 
 
post edited by Steelhead281 - 2017/10/27 06:13:06
#1
Erie_flyfishing
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/10/24 21:36:53 (permalink)
I agree . Seen guides profut off of fish we pay for. True shame
#2
Kokanee Killer
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/10/24 21:51:54 (permalink)
we have been down this road before ughh  i wish you luck i really do 

I have become comfortably numb
#3
genieman77
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/10/25 07:24:32 (permalink)
if it's a business venture profiting from a public funded resource (fish) 
I wouldn't have a knee jerk anti reaction to some type of "usage fee/tax" for  the biz owner
I'd like to see details though before I'd commit yea or nay 
 
I don't support it for guides though.
I don't support a landowner restriction on who they  let fish there 
(assuming it's not a for profit biz venture) 
Don't support nursery water designation 
and don't support unrealistic "put 'em out of business"  usage  fees/taxes.
That's just bullchit jealously at root there 
 
..L.T.A. 
#4
bigbear2012
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/10/25 07:31:32 (permalink)
We the people can b-itch about it all we want but the fact is we keep electing the azzholes who allow and profit from this kind of scheme.

wishin i was fishin
#5
Erie Mako
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/10/25 08:57:49 (permalink)
I would agree with #2 or #3 above.
I would consider #4 if modified to say specific months, not all year.
Maybe #1 should be something like a fee per customer, with documented customer names & addresses for verification - how about a "private water trout stamp"!

On the internet, EVERYONE is entitled to their opinion!
#6
psu_fish
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/10/25 09:01:42 (permalink)
I tried to read the original post, but the formatting sucks...
 
 
#7
Hohbo_
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/10/25 09:05:23 (permalink)
Why would anyone want to guide Erie county in the first place? 
 
Secondly, i'm fine with all of the land owner/guide rights. Since we know both items are not going away, how about a compromise with some state owned C and R only stretches with an additional fee on a license to fish them. I.e. buy the water before it is posted, pay for it with conservationist public fisherman's money. 
#8
Kokanee Killer
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/10/25 09:23:38 (permalink)
psu_fish
I tried to read the original post, but the formatting sucks...
 
 


  just use your psu issued secret decoder ring

I have become comfortably numb
#9
workcanwait....
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/10/25 09:40:15 (permalink)
I have come to the conclusion ...IT IS WHAT IT IS
WCW
#10
Smallsac
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/10/25 11:22:25 (permalink)
Fly_JDR
Why would anyone want to guide Erie county in the first place? 
 
Secondly, i'm fine with all of the land owner/guide rights. Since we know both items are not going away, how about a compromise with some state owned C and R only stretches with an additional fee on a license to fish them. I.e. buy the water before it is posted, pay for it with conservationist public fisherman's money. 


Smart idea, would also appease those with harvesting issues.  Undecided on the additional fee, since typically funds get diverted elsewhere and enforcement would be difficult, since already have issues keeping the Russian poachers in check.  If they were to actually put some pain into a poaching fine (ie. substantial harvest and enforce) and divert portion of those funds, would probably be a substantial contribution.  Think about what a WCO could do with a drone, without having to leave his truck...
#11
BorgCollective
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/10/25 12:03:08 (permalink)
WCO's are drones, and they don't leave the truck now.
Our last 3 visits to Walnut, watched him circle parking lot twice then left.
Never even put it in park!
The fish survey kid with the clipboard spends more time on foot than the WCO.

Yes, we are still here!
#12
Indiana Lou
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/10/25 12:42:35 (permalink)
Hohbo, I'm all for catch and release on trout streams. But I don't think it would have the results you anticipate since the steelhead are migrating. Those fish in a C&R area today will be 300 yards (or more) tomorrow and very possible hanging from a blue or yellow rope. As for the brown trout, do they follow the steelhead as they move to get the possible eggs they drop? Maybe if you make certain streams totally C&R it would get the wanted results. Just a thought.    Lou
#13
Hohbo_
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/10/25 13:21:07 (permalink)
Indiana Lou
Hohbo, I'm all for catch and release on trout streams. But I don't think it would have the results you anticipate since the steelhead are migrating. Those fish in a C&R area today will be 300 yards (or more) tomorrow and very possible hanging from a blue or yellow rope. As for the brown trout, do they follow the steelhead as they move to get the possible eggs they drop? Maybe if you make certain streams totally C&R it would get the wanted results. Just a thought.    Lou


 
Id rather fish 5 unpressured fish than a huge pod getting beat with powerbait balls, egg flies, and minnows. Yes, they migrate, but if you choose the C and R section wisely, you could easily get a pool that holds all year long. How often do you fish the same "spot" time after time and there are fish 6 months out of the year.... for sake of conversation, say, "The Manchester hole". 
 
This is all theoretical and nothing more. Nothing is going to change. State gets paid, we create the circus and litter and the owners will continue to post the land. 
 
#14
dano
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/10/25 18:23:58 (permalink)
genieman77
That's just bullchit jealously at root there 
..L.T.A. 



 
I thought his/hers whole post was bull poo jealousy.
Every suggestion is anti-landowner, including #1.
The State throws a bunch of fish in the stream and the land owner is supposed to just deal with it or else? That's BS.
And if you restrict these property tax paying landowners, I feel many will post their streams to all fishing resulting in even less water for all of us.  
#15
flyway
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/10/26 00:52:33 (permalink)
I love when this argument starts up every year.
Everyone compains about the landowners being greedy and profiting off the states fish.
Its not there fault the state stocked non-native trout in the creeks and invited thousands of people to come catch them.
What would you do if you owned a half-mile of Erie trib?
Would you let the public fish it 24 hours a day in the fall?
Would you just deal with people parking and littering all over the place?
I'm willing to bet most people complaining about private stretches of the creeks would kick people off their land in a heartbeat if they had any.
#16
PooFLinger
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/10/26 00:59:24 (permalink)
flyway

Would you let the public fish it 24 hours a day in the fall?






5a-11p south of route 5 on elk and south of manchester rd walnut..
all other tribs closed 11p-5a

States fault. They created a monster, got greedy and have no answers.

Gill em to kill em then Rope em smoke em
#17
fisherofmen376
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/10/26 09:02:12 (permalink)
dano
genieman77
That's just bullchit jealously at root there 
..L.T.A. 



 
I thought his/hers whole post was bull poo jealousy.
Every suggestion is anti-landowner, including #1.
The State throws a bunch of fish in the stream and the land owner is supposed to just deal with it or else? That's BS.
And if you restrict these property tax paying landowners, I feel many will post their streams to all fishing resulting in even less water for all of us.  


This^

We can all complain about the situation, but landowners rights are the TRUMP CARD! This issue has been discussed over and over. Contact your congressman, don't post on an inturdnet board and expect anything to gittur done.

"Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."
Matthew 4:19
#18
CAPTAIN HOOK
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/10/26 11:44:37 (permalink)
This is the oldest argument on FE. The sad part is nothing will change in the future without money! Cash talks most times and that's a fact. It's sad that a small percentage of slob fishermen ruin land access for the majority general caring public. It's also sad that certain people take advantage of private land for their profits or use by a public supported outdoor sport program. Both are what ruin future sport fishing ! 
Remember the less people come, the less the money flows, the less fish you will see stocked. Those big numbers of fish past were partly a result of big numbers of people and money flowing into Erie County.
 
Since we live in a state that gives landowners the rights to stream access on their property we don't have much of an argument. We can only hope for permission, or land lease agreements or changed laws. I have a feeling that even money will not sway some landowners..... they want their privacy.
 
Get them off the phones and computers ...........Take a kid fishing !
#19
fisherofmen376
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/10/26 12:11:52 (permalink)
flyway
I love when this argument starts up every year.
Everyone compains about the landowners being greedy and profiting off the states fish.
Its not there fault the state stocked non-native trout in the creeks and invited thousands of people to come catch them.
What would you do if you owned a half-mile of Erie trib?
Would you let the public fish it 24 hours a day in the fall?
Would you just deal with people parking and littering all over the place?
I'm willing to bet most people complaining about private stretches of the creeks would kick people off their land in a heartbeat if they had any.



Totally agree.^ 
The argument that "we pay for the fish" does not negate PA landowner law.  Is it frustrating that them stilleez swim to places we can't catch em?  Heck yeah!  If I owned land would I post it?  Heck yeah!  I don't want people walking, littering, peeing and pooping on my land from 5am till dark.  If someone knocked on my door and asked permission I would consider it.  But otherwise...GET OFF MY LAWN! 

"Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."
Matthew 4:19
#20
thunderpole
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/10/26 12:16:02 (permalink)
Hell yea! If I owned land on a trib it be posted and littered with cameras my land my rules! Would I let people fish yea but you better be polite ASK permission and summon me with a 30 pack

I'd rather be lucky then good,but im to good to be lucky
#21
BorgCollective
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/10/26 12:49:10 (permalink)
To us, it seems that something got lost during all of the posts in this thread -
On the surface, it appears the original poster was talking about "private" lands that are being used "for profit" by guide services and the few "pay to play" organizations and excluding the general fishing public.
 
Somehow it got turned into another "pooping & littering" argument.
Yes - AGREED - landowners have rights to privacy, clean property and security.
 
Look at it from this view -
Your neighbor has a 1000 foot long driveway, his private property...PennDot comes in and patches HIS driveway with patch material that was paid for by YOUR tax dollars and vehicle registration fees - but YOU are not allowed to drive on HIS driveway that was fixed using PUBLIC dollars. 
 
And YES - we think Steelhead 281 just posted his rant to stir the pot, which it did! - since he hasn't been back to defend his position on the subject.
 


Yes, we are still here!
#22
bigbear2012
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/10/26 13:12:50 (permalink)
Maybe we need to look at this from the other side.  If perhaps we were better sportsmen, left places better than we found them....there wouldn't be an issue.
Currently land owners are posting and leasing because of what they have been subjected to.  Like the hole upstream of rt on 20 mile.  What tore it and got that hole posted was years of disrespect and the final thing the landowner couldn't tolerate was someone using their back yard as a bathroom.  At that point I would have posted it too.

wishin i was fishin
#23
DarDys
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/10/26 14:34:49 (permalink)
BorgCollective
To us, it seems that something got lost during all of the posts in this thread -
On the surface, it appears the original poster was talking about "private" lands that are being used "for profit" by guide services and the few "pay to play" organizations and excluding the general fishing public.
 
Somehow it got turned into another "pooping & littering" argument.
Yes - AGREED - landowners have rights to privacy, clean property and security.
 
Look at it from this view -
Your neighbor has a 1000 foot long driveway, his private property...PennDot comes in and patches HIS driveway with patch material that was paid for by YOUR tax dollars and vehicle registration fees - but YOU are not allowed to drive on HIS driveway that was fixed using PUBLIC dollars. 
 
And YES - we think Steelhead 281 just posted his rant to stir the pot, which it did! - since he hasn't been back to defend his position on the subject.
 



Or, I pay property taxes, but have never had, do not have, and never will have kids in school; am on a private road, so I pay for the road maintenance and plowing; I pay for repairing storm water abatement; the police are not permitted to patrol or be on the property without being called; there are no street lights; there is no driveway mail delivery; I pay for sewer and the maintenance of the pump; the fire department is voluntary; the ambulance is a paid subscription; etc., so in other words, I get just about zero public services for my tax dollars. Using the original poster’s logic, I shouldn’t have to pay those property taxes which support the services that others get, but I don’t.

It could be said that I benefit by having county roads and their maintenance for my tax dollars. Again, using the original poster’s logic, why then should UPS, the garbage collector, or any other commercial venture profit from the roads I pay for?

To extend the original poster’s logic, since I visited Allegheny County when PNC, Heinz Field, and the PPG Center were being built and therefore was subjected to the extra 1% sales tax used to help fund them, I should have as much right to access as those who buy tickets (guides), the players (club members), and the owners (property owners), the latter two of which profit greatly. But, alas, I don’t.

If the original poster has an issue with guides, property owners, and clubs, here is how to fix that — get out your wallet and hire a guide, join a club, or purchase stream property.

Keep in mind that 60% of the license fee goes for administration, so that means that if all the rest went just for steelhead, which it does not, the individual license holder would have a whopping amount that wouldn’t buy dinner at the Avonia Tavern invested. Of course, the sail boater, jet skier, and pleasure boater have more invested, so please don’t catch the fish they paid for through registration fees and sales tax (the only tax dollars the PFBC gets, other than federal kickbacks from sporting goods) which is far more than an individual license holder.

In full disclosure, I do not guide for fish, do not belong to a club that owns water, nor own streamside property in Erie (although I do own stream property).

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
#24
fisherofmen376
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/10/26 14:58:51 (permalink)
Borg collective...why do you refer to yourself in the plural? 

"Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."
Matthew 4:19
#25
EMitch
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/10/26 16:44:32 (permalink)
Thunderpole, good copy on the 30 pack!
 
I can't blame a property owner for posting, considering the total slobs that use the resources. It's been 4 years since I fished off the wall at Walnut, and every trip I collected pop bottles, empty hook packages and other garbage and placed it in the dumpster, which the PFBC was smart enough to provide. I've also picked up garbage from around the dumpster; apparently some people can't hit a 6' x 6' hole. When I fish the river or a lake and I snag up somebody else's broken off line, I wind it up and dispose of it properly when I get back to the ramp. There's more to just bein' a fisherman; ya gotta be a sportsman, too.

Liberalism is standing on your head and telling the rest of the world that they're upside down.
#26
BorgCollective
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/10/26 18:57:29 (permalink)
DarDys:
UPS, garbage collector and commercial ventures pay for the roads too in the form of fuel tax, highway use tax (HUT sticker on the truck door) and vehicle registration fees.
The fire department may be volunteer, but ask to read their audit report and pay particular attention to the part where they receive funds from the township they serve and the neighboring townships if they provide mutual aid.
If we remember the wording correctly, by law, local municipalities are required to provide fire protection to it's residents. If said municipality doesn't have a paid for fire service, they contract out to neighboring communities for the use of their fire protection.
The only thing volunteer about a "volunteer fire department" is the manpower, government money is involved at the root of it.
 
fisherofmen376:
Plural becasue we are a collective of minds. (BorgCollective)

Yes, we are still here!
#27
genieman77
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/10/26 19:10:34 (permalink)
dano
genieman77
That's just bullchit jealously at root there 
..L.T.A. 



 
I thought his/hers whole post was bull poo jealousy.

 
pretty much
the outlandish "punitive" fees and regs makes it so imHo.
some of it may be   the "entitlement" mentality so  prevalent in America too.
 
It's not just dem "po-folk" that expect sump'um for nuttin.
There's a whole lot of middle and upper middle class folk that think "recreation in your yard" should be something they're entitled too
after all, they did spend a whole 40 bukz a year for the "right"  .....right?
 
 
there may a valid point to some of it though.
DarDys  made some analogies .
a better analogy might  be a hypothetical one though
If the state stocked an adjacent  land with kazzillions  of pheasants every year..
and they all migrate thru as well as nest on  his property like clockwork....
If  he profits from it  via a private pheasant hunting biz venture, would some user fee/tax be appropriate? 
Or is it just the "luck of the draw" and kudos to his good fortune for happening to own land at the right place/right time?
 
 
 
smoke 'em if you got 'em 
 
..L.T.A.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
#28
genieman77
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/10/26 19:27:13 (permalink)
CAPTAIN HOOK
T It's sad that a small percentage of slob fishermen ruin land access for the majority general caring public.




 
you go back to the "olden days", Capt'n
You witnessed the almost overnight explosion of anglers everywhere in the early '00s  like I and the other Ole Timers did.
 
it's not just the  "slobs" that ruined the party, it was/is the shear volume of us.
In the aggregate, we became a GIANT footprint/presence  on tiny creeks from sun up to sun down
 
 
..L.T.A. 
#29
pheasant tail 2
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/10/26 22:43:54 (permalink)
genieman77
CAPTAIN HOOK
T It's sad that a small percentage of slob fishermen ruin land access for the majority general caring public.




 
you go back to the "olden days", Capt'n
You witnessed the almost overnight explosion of anglers everywhere in the early '00s  like I and the other Ole Timers did.
 
it's not just the  "slobs" that ruined the party, it was/is the shear volume of us.
In the aggregate, we became a GIANT footprint/presence  on tiny creeks from sun up to sun down
 
 
..L.T.A. 

From sun up to sun down September thru April. Think about that.
 
PT2 
#30
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