Helpful Replyjust mussing--

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r3g3
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2016/08/30 11:40:35 (permalink)

just mussing--

Hey -I read with great interest  reports of Kings perhaps developing a different strain caused by the 'naturals'  breeding over time.
 
 Hatchery folks are at a point where they are inserting  wild Kings to the hatchery  because of this -to increase it or to control it ? 
 
My only experience with genetics is  breeding quality Labs for years where great effort was  made investigating medical history and certifications of potential breeders over prior generations to produce the highest quality pups.
 
I am limited when it comes to genetics in a uncontrolled system.
 
My question is  how the heck does this happen to the point of being an issue- good or bad-in an open uncontrolled system?
The fish both stocked and natural breed wild and most likely with each other and fish in the hatchery are stripped for sperm and eggs in a similar manner--or do they keep naturals and hatchery fish separate for this purpose ??
 
One may think that the 'natural new' strain really does not get together so frequently as to become good sized  noticed variable.
If its all just happenchance is this strain THAT genetically dominant when breeding with a hatchery fish ???
Is that a good thing or a bad thing ???
Do they run at the same times and tolerate the same waters conditions as hatched fish ??
 
Enlightenment please---
post edited by r3g3 - 2016/08/30 11:43:59
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Clint S
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Re: just mussing-- 2016/08/30 13:31:16 (permalink)
FWIW They talked about this at the meeting.  They said they use 10 to 15 % wild fish at the hatchery to intermix.  Yes they think these fish are evolving to the ''Ontario'' strain and losing some of the Ocean characteristics.

The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.  ~Babylonian Proverb

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r3g3
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Re: just mussing-- 2016/08/30 17:53:23 (permalink)
Clint - is it that they are ALL becoming Ontario strain fish-hatchery and/or natural spawned -  and the 'wild inputs' are to keep a decent gene pool ???
I had not been looking at it that way.
Was I making too much of those with and without 'the fin' when they may really be the same fishes ??
post edited by r3g3 - 2016/08/30 17:56:32
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fichy
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Re: just mussing-- 2016/08/30 18:14:32 (permalink)
Trev, that's a good question. Is the only difference the  alevin to parr phase in the river, rather than a tank?  If a unique gene pool were to arise from generations of truly wild, adapted fish, perhaps we'd only see night runners with armor tough skin...  Seriously, one would think genetically adapting to the Big O and the SR would  help with overall survival and sustainability.
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r3g3
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Re: just mussing-- 2016/08/30 19:20:01 (permalink)
After looking over some old posts and the more recent things from the meeting am now pretty much sure they are the same- natural  and hatchery born.
The fin clip tells us the difference on where they were born and percentage of  naturals but they may well be the same fish.
Would make sense with the uncontrolled breeding back and forth and common mixing of gene pools..
That said there have been some reports here about naturals running earlier-perhaps they leave the river earlier and are on a bit different cycle.
Or its likely that some folks were just up there when they ran and the Hatchery fish didn't on that day or two.
As I wondered earlier - -would be real difficult to have enough natural spawners find each other cycle after cycle and create a separate genetic fish over time with so many others to breed with.
Heck -they share the same gravel beds too.
Night runners with armored  bodies --lol.
post edited by r3g3 - 2016/08/30 19:26:07
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Clint S
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Re: just mussing-- 2016/08/30 19:56:33 (permalink)
Thats what they said trev The "naturals" Seemed to possibly, mayby & might run earlier. Ny puter is broke and typing in this tiny phone is killing me

The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.  ~Babylonian Proverb

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r3g3
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Re: just mussing-- 2016/08/30 21:25:37 (permalink)
Wellll- that could keep down some of the spawning with hatchery fish and perhaps help to maintain a separate line to some degree-
Heck- real early they cant even get into the hatchery to mix it up.
Am bouncing all over here trying to figure this out   lol.
Must say though that I have caught naturals late as well as early.
 
post edited by r3g3 - 2016/08/30 21:29:49
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Lucky13
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Re: just mussing-- 2016/08/30 22:41:23 (permalink)
Quality dog breeding, especially in Labs = Hip Displasia.  Because everyone keeps tapping the same Pedigreed Gene pool, and the inbreeding weakens the resultant generations.
 
In the old days peeps that needed dogs to work and function cross bred once in a while for vitality.  Gone with the dog show mentality and non hunters (and high prices for dogs).  I personally like Heinz dogs, though!
 
If I stock fish from a concrete pond and a few years later find that some are coming back that weren't raised in my pond, I certainly want to introduce that vitality into my pond fish, to keep them vital.  Tons of research out there about hatchery stocks failing due to inbreeding and lack of genetic diversity.
 
Oh, and I can't marry my cousin in New York, but that is to prevent spread of bad genetic traits! 
 
 
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bigbear2012
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Re: just mussing-- 2016/08/31 08:48:43 (permalink)
Just thinking about the adaptations for the salmon river.
Finless fish....that way no hooks could snag between the body and fin
Armor scales....to prevent hook penetration
scales that fall off easy.....just in case a hook penetrated
annis on top...to make it harder to snag
eye covering clear scales....to prevent damage from flailing hooks
big body/ strong ....to break that 50 lb braid
huge eyes...to navigate at night
camo body.....rock shapes would be best
grill over the mouth....to prevent that occasional lucky shot
 
The fish of a lifetime

wishin i was fishin
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r3g3
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Re: just mussing-- 2016/08/31 09:36:11 (permalink)
Lucky- spot on with the limited gene pools with dogs.
We bred good English style dogs.
It was a chore to investigate the past several generations of potential breeders to insure that the hips, eyes and elbows were OK as well as appearance and temperament of the dogs themselves also to look into the parental history to prevent inbreeding.
Was surprising how many good sounding dogs had the same great grand parents- even from great distances apart- some of that was OK but LIMITED at best.
For example the old tale of Displyasia 'skipping' generations is bovine field platter- --if its in the genetic pool it can become dominant in pups when bred to another with a similar gene pool.
I used to go back 4 generations (beyond the breeders) of ALL certifications from all dogs in the history to try and eliminate the possibility in an effort to keep the pool intact.
Found that ( at that time) about 4 generations was the best you could find now its likely 5 or 6.
Like the Kings- generations in dogs can come much faster that we humans.
Fortunately AKC has those certifications and the historical papers went along with each pup.
NEVER listen to - 'oh yea my dogs OK- my Vet said so'- document document.
Costly - but ya get what ya pay for.
Moved out lots of quality pups and never  had one come back with those issues.
Heck, we had Christmas  cards of  dogs and calls years later for replacements.
Was a rewarding experience.
That ,however, is very selective breeding which the Kings are not- hence all my silly questions.
post edited by r3g3 - 2016/08/31 09:44:09
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Lucky13
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Re: just mussing-- 2016/08/31 10:19:19 (permalink)
Same principal though, if some "different" strains get introduced, it makes for a more robust overall population.  As you say, however, when you are raising a few million kings, a lot more is going to be "chance."   Also, Ma Nature has a way of leveling things out, so even if you could breed selectively, they would not all run the same day to the same place, things in Nature generally follow a bell curve distribution, so that if, say, conditions wipe out the early part of the run there are still some individuals coming later.  Its going  to be interesting to see what the Coho runs look like next year with all the late reproduction going on up in the bo's last fall  and winter, and I remember back when I used to be on the river in September the big runs of Cohos would show then.
post edited by Lucky13 - 2016/08/31 10:23:00
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r3g3
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Re: just mussing-- 2016/08/31 10:50:34 (permalink)
Yes- am happy to see the percentage of annual new King genes being put into the hatchery.
 Prefer to fish Hos though, and hear little about them in these difficult times.
The past couple of seasons have been a disappointment in general with them IMHO..
Back in those very low water seasons a few years ago they were spawning early and way low.
That said, recall  when fresh dead Hos were commonplace in  a mid  February in Kiddie.
As far as I am concerned there is nothing like a large male Ho on the line.
post edited by r3g3 - 2016/08/31 10:57:10
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pafisher
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Re: just mussing-- 2016/08/31 11:41:02 (permalink)
I remember catching lots of HO's in the LFZ right after it opened for the season,they were a blast as they were fresh from the lake and they run that river in a day or two.When I say catch I really mean hooked as the landing ratio was very low because they fight like a Steel on steroids!I can only hope to see that this year.
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r3g3
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Re: just mussing-- 2016/08/31 17:25:42 (permalink)
Makes ya wonder about game in the wild- like Deer.
Imagine how inbred they can get even with bucks wandering.
Or the gazillion bunnies behind my house- likely on their FOURTH litter this year- new young ones around yesterday.
No wonder horn growth is so varied from area to area- and not that far apart either.
Go a few miles and the average mature Buck is a different animal.
Genetics genetics
Don't even START me on Humans -
Imagine if we bred to the same standards we require on a decent hunting dog.  LOL
post edited by r3g3 - 2016/08/31 17:27:59
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hot tuna
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Re: just mussing-- 2016/08/31 18:31:25 (permalink)
this is way beyond my train of thoughts..
I'm just a dumb fisher trying to catch a bite, adopt a mutt or put some ground venison on the table..
Interesting though..
 

"whats that smell like fish oh baby" .. J. Kaukonen
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r3g3
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Re: just mussing-- 2016/09/02 13:18:06 (permalink)
Starting to sound like the Needle will have guests stomping around in shorts and 40 lb test real soon.
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pafisher
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Re: just mussing-- 2016/09/02 13:42:38 (permalink)
r3g3
Starting to sound like the Needle will have guests stomping around in shorts and 40 lb test real soon.




They will be dodging the kayakers in the 750 flow......"Kayak on....Coming Down"!!!
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hot tuna
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Re: just mussing-- 2016/09/02 17:02:16 (permalink)
FYI :
A co worker is in 1 st place in the LOC derby with 33.10 lbs . That is a $5,000 check if it holds plus he already cashed I on the $500. big fish of the day .
He just missed the $25,000 grand prize ( ends Sunday at 1 pm ) , GP leader is 33.13 lbs . Heartbreaker but he is happy as heck !!

"whats that smell like fish oh baby" .. J. Kaukonen
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pafisher
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Re: just mussing-- 2016/09/02 17:12:17 (permalink)
They are coming thru the DSR today,750 is going to really get it going.Time to start checking the gear for the time up there,,,,can you tell I'm getting a little anxious?
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Lucky13
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Re: just mussing-- 2016/09/03 10:39:28 (permalink)
794 cfs at Pineville, but 91° predicted by Wednesday.  Poached poached Salmon in Pulaski again!
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r3g3
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Re: just mussing-- 2016/09/03 14:23:13 (permalink)
We all know what last year was and that they say this season may be somewhat better- however--  have looked at last years posts and really don't see much ( if anything worth mentioning) happening till about mid October so the recent early reports are really perking me up.
Personally had a poor year in 2015 and it was bout the third week of Oct before getting into some regularly.
Ended up spending more time for Deer than fishing because of poor numbers and way more fishermen than fish in most places.
Hope the numbers continue and increase this season.
Glad I am not the only one getting itchy-----
post edited by r3g3 - 2016/09/03 14:34:54
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Clint S
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Re: just mussing-- 2016/09/04 09:34:51 (permalink)
I had the worse catch rate probably ever last year. I personally think It will be better than last, but not good by any means.  I am thinking lie two years ago.  Get up now because the next three may be worse than last if it all plays out.  Two years with no bait and the third with reduced stocking.  I am all but done with the crowds and shat shows so my trips up will be minimal and perch and eyes will be my target.

The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.  ~Babylonian Proverb

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hot tuna
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Re: just mussing-- 2016/09/04 14:54:49 (permalink)
Well by buddy got knocked down to second place in the finals of the LOC derby
It ended at 1 pm today . $25,000 fish was 34#'s but he cashed out at $2,000 + 500 for fish of day .
I am seriously considering moving to his port in fair haven . The state park looks awesome , his campgrounds is nice and he has been into fish all summer due to deep water right off the get go.

"whats that smell like fish oh baby" .. J. Kaukonen
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Clint S
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Re: just mussing-- 2016/09/04 15:02:20 (permalink)
Far haven is top notch, but book your sites early

The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.  ~Babylonian Proverb

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hot tuna
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Re: just mussing-- 2016/09/04 15:48:26 (permalink)
He has a seasonal site and a huge camper . I just need a port as I prefer to stay on the boat . Nothing good fishing wise is happening in Mexico for me during the summer although I dig the people and community .
He has been catching salmon all season over there . I need to make a change of venue otherwise it's getting to the point of throwing in the towel . Now even the wife is questioning my sanity .

"whats that smell like fish oh baby" .. J. Kaukonen
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troutbum21
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Re: just mussing-- 2016/09/05 08:16:53 (permalink)
HT, if it's any consolation, I have no doubts about your sanity. 
It sounds as if you have already convinced yourself to make the move.  Best of luck, you are certainly due.
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Clint S
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Re: just mussing-- 2016/09/05 20:11:33 (permalink)
You gotta turn over all the rocks to find the worms. Went to Tractor supply to buy my fencer and up to sandy pond to drop my Boat off for outboard work. Heard of om getting caught at The short bridge, nothing at all going on in the estuary

The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.  ~Babylonian Proverb

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pafisher
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Re: just mussing-- 2016/09/05 23:26:43 (permalink)
DSR reports lots of Salmon are running the river,and they are getting them on the line.....FISH ON!
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uglyfish
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Re: just mussing-- 2016/09/06 08:12:46 (permalink)
I'm not falling for it. I do every year and all I ever get is small mouths and chubs. getting plenty of smallies around my house don't need to drive to the SR for them. I'll wait sometime and go out at my usual times. Good luck if anyone gets on the river
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pafisher
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Re: just mussing-- 2016/09/06 09:46:31 (permalink)
uglyfish
I'm not falling for it. I do every year and all I ever get is small mouths and chubs. getting plenty of smallies around my house don't need to drive to the SR for them. I'll wait sometime and go out at my usual times. Good luck if anyone gets on the river




From what I have seen lately they,the DSR,seem to be telling it how it is,but I agree it is too early right now and we still need some cooler temps.
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