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BloodyHand
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Re: Trump... 2021/02/23 06:55:28 (permalink)
^^^^^^^
Correct
and not so correct.
Look into Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac and who had their hand in the cookie jar. Follow the money.
 
BH
MyWar
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Re: Trump... 2021/02/23 08:30:34 (permalink)
If you have a point to make then make it. I’m not doing your research for you.
Porktown
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Re: Trump... 2021/02/23 10:27:47 (permalink)
Fannie and Freddy are to the 2008 recession is like Trump is to the madness of the Republican party.
 
None are responsible, but once things got rolling, were definitely part of both collapses.
 
 
eyesandgillz
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Re: Trump... 2021/02/23 15:22:26 (permalink)
MyWar
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Re: Trump... 2021/02/23 17:46:25 (permalink)
eyesandgillz
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramm%E2%80%93Leach%E2%80%93Bliley_Act
 
Democrats fault....as usual.  


How did Gramm Leech Blilely and the repeal of Glass Steagul impact the conditions that I noted in my post, that were the DIRECT cause of the financial crisis?

These regs had nothing to do with the systemic risks inherent in the investment banking industry. At best, the effects of the crisis might have been somewhat blunted if glass steagul was still in place, but it would have done absolutely nothing to prevent the housing bubble from blowing up, and the investment markets those bad loans were based on would have still crashed.

Dodd Frank is the most comprehensive banking reform legislation in the country’s history. It was passed in 2010 by a Democratic congress and signed into law by a Democratic President. It ensures that the conditions that precipitated the 2008 crash will never occur again, and republicans have trying to undermine it since the day it became law.
BloodyHand
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Re: Trump... 2021/02/23 20:08:07 (permalink)
 "and republicans have trying to undermine it since the day it became law."
would this have anything to do with Capitalism?
Back to my original question. Who capitalized???
I've been told the answer, but maybe I've been lead astray. Can someone shed some light on this?
 
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Re: Trump... 2021/02/24 00:35:01 (permalink)
eyesandgillz
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramm%E2%80%93Leach%E2%80%93Bliley_Act
 
Democrats fault....as usual.  




The GLBA was sponsored by three republicans, and passed by a republican controlled house and senate with a veto-proof vote.   
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Re: Trump... 2021/02/24 00:56:21 (permalink)
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https://www.wsj.com/artic...7604579000571334113350


 
This article was written by a co-sponsor of the Gramm-Leach-Billey Act and an advisor to Mitch McConnell.  Might be some bias there.
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Re: Trump... 2021/02/24 07:28:27 (permalink)
I know I got caught in the housing bubble in Florida.
I bought a house in 2005 for 285k nice 2 car garage swimming pool worked as a superintendent for a home builder building 500 homes a year which was a small builder. US homes was building about 2000 homes a year. Things were bombing. There would be paper investors that would buy a home on the start of a development and sell it for 20 to 30 k more after the development was finished. Then the bottom fell out no body buying houses sitting builders left with well over 100 to 1000 of houses sitting. People loosing there jobs it was a nightmare. My house was 285 and by 2008 it was valued at 120k. I had put down 100 k and was upside down. Builders went bankrupt banks holding the loan which the house was valued lower then the loan. AIG was a mortgage insurance holder. So when Obama took office banks, AIG Auto dealers etc. we’re in big trouble. They all got bailed out and legislation was written. But I held on to my house for 10 years before I sold it to recoup some of my money. It took Trump to get the economy up so I could sell it. Obama had the economy stagnate and Florida economy would not grow. That’s what Socialism does for the economy. That’s why I am not crazy about Socialism.
Porktown
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Re: Trump... 2021/02/24 08:48:13 (permalink)
BloodyHand
would this have anything to do with Capitalism?
 

Capitalism is what happened.  Recessions, depressions, and other are part of Capitalism.  When regulated a bit, there are some tripwires and some get rich schemes that are behind most recessions, can be thwarted to an extent.
 
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I know I got caught in the housing bubble in Florida.
 
There would be paper investors that would buy a home on the start of a development and sell it for 20 to 30 k more after the development was finished. Then the bottom fell out no body buying houses sitting builders left with well over 100 to 1000 of houses sitting. People loosing there jobs it was a nightmare. My house was 285 and by 2008 it was valued at 120k. I had put down 100 k and was upside down.

 
This is Capitalism and why it needs some regulation.  I was in Northern VA in the late 90s when the extreme overvaluation of houses started there.  Houses that were $150k, within a year were $300k.  People were taking on loans for twice that they could afford (none through Fannie or Freddie), "because when I sell, I will make a fortune".  It was the talk of our office at the time.  This wasn't happening in darkness, it was in full view of our leaders.  It was one of the reasons that I left the area.  My apartment doubled in price in two years, but I made maybe 10% more in that time to cover it.  To anyone that could see past their nose, knew there was going to be an issue when the craze would subside.  I was caught up once in a pyramid scheme when I was younger that taught me a lot.  When things look too good to be true, they almost always are.
 
For anyone that has read "A Random Walk Down Wall Street" will certainly relate this to the "Tulip Bulb Craze" of 1500s Holland or the "South Sea Company" of 1700s England, which each lead to recessions of their times. 
 
What you noted about people buying and selling to make a quick buck, is similar to how our Depression happened.  The amount of speculation buying in 1929 was through the roof.  It artificially inflated the market just as those Tulip Bulbs and companies to nowhere did in the past.  Same thing was happening in the early 2000s and our leaders at the time did nothing about it.  Just like the late 1920s, there were other factors driving things and possibly causing the tipping point (investment pool scams and brokers promoting).  Similar thing happened with the internet boom of the stock market and introduction of conglomerates to falsely inflate stock prices.  All of these were started by shady people that took advantage of people looking for a get rich quick scheme and jumping on board of a craze.  Just like the pyramid schemes that these all are/were, eventually it runs out of those willing to invest and the bottoms fall out.  Those with Gamestop stock that bought at the wrong time are the latest victims.  
 
The source most recessions, is greed and the hordes of followers looking for quick wealth and runs out of fools, where the bottom falls out.  Pandemics and war can also cause them.
 
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Obama had the economy stagnate and Florida economy would not grow. That’s what Socialism does for the economy. That’s why I am not crazy about Socialism.

Check out the economy figures from Obama's term through Trump's.  Until the pandemic, it was almost identical slope upward.  That was not from socialism, Obama was far from socialism.  The far left, definitely.  Obama did an excellent job of following what Paul Volcker told him to do to fix the economy.  The same person that turned around the economy from Carter though Reagan.  None of their legislative policy would have meant anything without Volcker behind the scenes orchestrating things.
 
post edited by Porktown - 2021/02/24 08:49:58
MyWar
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Re: Trump... 2021/02/24 09:24:04 (permalink)
JerryS
eyesandgillz
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramm%E2%80%93Leach%E2%80%93Bliley_Act
 
Democrats fault....as usual.  




The GLBA was sponsored by three republicans, and passed by a republican controlled house and senate with a veto-proof vote.   


True. William Gramm, James Leach & Thomas Blilely were all republicans. The GLBA was undeniably bipartisan legislation.
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Re: Trump... 2021/02/24 09:24:28 (permalink)
I guess Socialism is to much regulation and Capitalism is not enough regulation. I learned the hard way and it cost me. Hard way learn. I was in Va in mid to late 80s and the economy was strong Clinton was in office 90s cut the military and the economy was not as good.
MyWar
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Re: Trump... 2021/02/24 09:36:43 (permalink)
JerryS
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https://www.wsj.com/artic...7604579000571334113350


 
This article was written by a co-sponsor of the Gramm-Leach-Billey Act and an advisor to Mitch McConnell.  Might be some bias there.


I’ve seen a lot of people try to blame the crisis on the repeal of glass steagul (even Paul Krugman), but this is the first time I’ve ever seen anybody try to blame poor people. Looks like total BS to me. Housing market bubbles aren’t caused by affordable housing.

As somebody who works in the banking industry, I blame bankers. On the consumer side, they engaged in flawed, risky underwriting practices which resulted in bad loans that people couldn’t repay. Then they bundled the bad loans off and sold them to other banks. On the investment side they built a huge, high risk investment market on the same bad loans. It was a house of cards, plain and simple. And federal regulators should have stepped in and done something before it collapsed because plenty of people were sounding alarms before the crash.
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Re: Trump... 2021/02/24 09:46:14 (permalink)
Well I put 100k down had a good job but fell into it at the wrong time. Investors made a fortune in homes under valued. Who made the stipulation on loans who was pressuring the banks to give these loans. Rich always get richer on bad economics.
Porktown
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Re: Trump... 2021/02/24 10:17:31 (permalink)
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I guess Socialism is to much regulation and Capitalism is not enough regulation. I learned the hard way and it cost me. Hard way learn. I was in Va in mid to late 80s and the economy was strong Clinton was in office 90s cut the military and the economy was not as good.

Capitalism with some regulation is the way to go, IMO.  Unfortunately, there will always be people looking to make a quick buck that either don't realize or don't care that their actions are going to crush others.  There seems to be a fine line between stealing from someone legally and illegally, which is where Capitalism has its biggest flaws to me.  Regulation of this, is needed IMO.  Some rush to call that Socialism, to me it is morality...
 
I'd have to know more about your personal experience, but it sounds like you were one of the unfortunate people that were caught in the wake.  It doesn't sound like you were buying something beyond your means and/or buying with sole intent to turn and sell in relatively short term for profit.  If you were buying as your residence and looking for it to build equity as we all hope for in our homes, then you are truly one of the many victims that those that profited like crazy, basically stole from IMO.  Why regulation is needed and although it came too late for you, it seemed to happen with Dodd Frank.  
 
Many/most of those that caused it to crash, weren't bad people either.  They saw what seemed like a moderate risk investment opportunity that others were doing.  When you see more and more people doing and "winning", the safer it looks.  Some got out in time to make out, others didn't.  It is just like the stock market.  Although, you can't set a stop limit in real estate.
 
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Re: Trump... 2021/02/24 11:55:21 (permalink)
Porktown
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I guess Socialism is to much regulation and Capitalism is not enough regulation. I learned the hard way and it cost me. Hard way learn. I was in Va in mid to late 80s and the economy was strong Clinton was in office 90s cut the military and the economy was not as good.

Capitalism with some regulation is the way to go, IMO.  Unfortunately, there will always be people looking to make a quick buck that either don't realize or don't care that their actions are going to crush others.  There seems to be a fine line between stealing from someone legally and illegally, which is where Capitalism has its biggest flaws to me.  Regulation of this, is needed IMO.  Some rush to call that Socialism, to me it is morality...
 
I'd have to know more about your personal experience, but it sounds like you were one of the unfortunate people that were caught in the wake.  It doesn't sound like you were buying something beyond your means and/or buying with sole intent to turn and sell in relatively short term for profit.  If you were buying as your residence and looking for it to build equity as we all hope for in our homes, then you are truly one of the many victims that those that profited like crazy, basically stole from IMO.  Why regulation is needed and although it came too late for you, it seemed to happen with Dodd Frank.  
 
Many/most of those that caused it to crash, weren't bad people either.  They saw what seemed like a moderate risk investment opportunity that others were doing.  When you see more and more people doing and "winning", the safer it looks.  Some got out in time to make out, others didn't.  It is just like the stock market.  Although, you can't set a stop limit in real estate.
 
MyWar
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Re: Trump... 2021/02/24 11:58:41 (permalink)
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I know I got caught in the housing bubble in Florida.
I bought a house in 2005 for 285k nice 2 car garage swimming pool worked as a superintendent for a home builder building 500 homes a year which was a small builder. US homes was building about 2000 homes a year. Things were bombing. There would be paper investors that would buy a home on the start of a development and sell it for 20 to 30 k more after the development was finished. Then the bottom fell out no body buying houses sitting builders left with well over 100 to 1000 of houses sitting. People loosing there jobs it was a nightmare. My house was 285 and by 2008 it was valued at 120k. I had put down 100 k and was upside down. Builders went bankrupt banks holding the loan which the house was valued lower then the loan. AIG was a mortgage insurance holder. So when Obama took office banks, AIG Auto dealers etc. we’re in big trouble. They all got bailed out and legislation was written. But I held on to my house for 10 years before I sold it to recoup some of my money. It took Trump to get the economy up so I could sell it. Obama had the economy stagnate and Florida economy would not grow. That’s what Socialism does for the economy. That’s why I am not crazy about Socialism.


You got caught in the collapse of the housing bubble. That’s exactly what you are describing here, and it has nothing to do with socialism, in fact it’s the opposite.

Economic bubbles and collapses are what happens in free markets when they aren’t regulated properly. You are literally describing a fundamental flaw of capitalism and then blaming socialism.
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Re: Trump... 2021/02/24 12:08:20 (permalink)
I was moving to Florida to be with my daughter and grand kids I had a remodeling company since 1988 and in 2005 thought I had enough and decided to sell everything and move south. I had a good job offer and took it. Took me 15 years of my life to make the money to move just caught me by surprise just wanted to make a living not looking to get rich. 99 percent of he homes were take over by the banks people just walk away from them. Rent was still good so I rented until the market would pick which unfortunately not until 10 years later. When I came back to Pa. it was a totally different world. You pick up the Pieces and keep moving on. Work hard and good will happen.
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Re: Trump... 2021/02/24 12:15:25 (permalink)
I blaming Socialism because it took 10 years to partially recoup. Way to long for a come back.
MyWar
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Re: Trump... 2021/02/24 12:40:51 (permalink)
Porktown
I'd have to know more about your personal experience, but it sounds like you were one of the unfortunate people that were caught in the wake.  It doesn't sound like you were buying something beyond your means and/or buying with sole intent to turn and sell in relatively short term for profit.  If you were buying as your residence and looking for it to build equity as we all hope for in our homes, then you are truly one of the many victims that those that profited like crazy, basically stole from IMO.  Why regulation is needed and although it came too late for you, it seemed to happen with Dodd Frank.  
 


The other mechanism at play here is the pressure from within the banking industry to sell sell sell, because market based capitalism values growth at all costs over pretty much anything else.

During this time in particular, executives put pressure on all levels of their staff. Lenders and retail had to sell the loans, and underwriters were pressured to approve them. So they booked alot of bad loans that either (1) people couldn’t afford to repay or (2) were for more than the value of the property, or (3) all of the above.

And yes, there are provisions in Dodd Frank that address these kinds of practices.
Porktown
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Re: Trump... 2021/02/24 13:35:47 (permalink)
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I was moving to Florida to be with my daughter and grand kids I had a remodeling company since 1988 and in 2005 thought I had enough and decided to sell everything and move south. I had a good job offer and took it. Took me 15 years of my life to make the money to move just caught me by surprise just wanted to make a living not looking to get rich. 99 percent of he homes were take over by the banks people just walk away from them. Rent was still good so I rented until the market would pick which unfortunately not until 10 years later. When I came back to Pa. it was a totally different world. You pick up the Pieces and keep moving on. Work hard and good will happen.

If it makes you feel any better...  I bought my current home while this mess was going on, but completely different issue.  Being in the Pittsburgh suburbs, there was no housing boom & crash, since we were already living in a recession or whatever it was called, not much to crash from here.  My issue came with the foundation of my house.  The value of my home took at least a $100k hit about 2 years into living here, on top of me spending $30k into "fixing" it...  Which was a nightmare fighting with people, getting engineers, attorneys and had to be done twice!  I was told by a real estate attorney at the time, it would be unsellable without fixing and expect to be worth around 80% after 10 years of no issues.  Not that it is the same thing, but I know what that gut punch feels like.  The stress that I went through during that time makes me angry even revisiting it...
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Re: Trump... 2021/02/24 14:54:14 (permalink)
Porktown
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I was moving to Florida to be with my daughter and grand kids I had a remodeling company since 1988 and in 2005 thought I had enough and decided to sell everything and move south. I had a good job offer and took it. Took me 15 years of my life to make the money to move just caught me by surprise just wanted to make a living not looking to get rich. 99 percent of he homes were take over by the banks people just walk away from them. Rent was still good so I rented until the market would pick which unfortunately not until 10 years later. When I came back to Pa. it was a totally different world. You pick up the Pieces and keep moving on. Work hard and good will happen.

If it makes you feel any better...  I bought my current home while this mess was going on, but completely different issue.  Being in the Pittsburgh suburbs, there was no housing boom & crash, since we were already living in a recession or whatever it was called, not much to crash from here.  My issue came with the foundation of my house.  The value of my home took at least a $100k hit about 2 years into living here, on top of me spending $30k into "fixing" it...  Which was a nightmare fighting with people, getting engineers, attorneys and had to be done twice!  I was told by a real estate attorney at the time, it would be unsellable without fixing and expect to be worth around 80% after 10 years of no issues.  Not that it is the same thing, but I know what that gut punch feels like.  The stress that I went through during that time makes me angry even revisiting it...


Well I know how you feel I stuck over 30k in that house over the years from renters destroying it. I lived near Tampa and when the Steelers were playing the Super Bowl my tenant had moved out and rented it out for a week. After a 17 hour drive and arrived at my house I was devastated. Well at least walleye fishing is right around the corner.
Porktown
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Re: Trump... 2021/02/24 15:44:17 (permalink)
We debated to rent out our old place, but my wife's uncle talked us out of it.  Basically for what you said. 
 
Long term rental landlords are getting killed by the eviction moratoriums right now too.  I get the idea of not kicking anyone out during a pandemic, but most landlords rely on rental income to pay the mortgage.  If having that, then there really needs to be a mortgage moratorium too...  Yeah, keep money from the bank???  
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Re: Trump... 2021/02/25 11:29:03 (permalink)
Porktown
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I was moving to Florida to be with my daughter and grand kids I had a remodeling company since 1988 and in 2005 thought I had enough and decided to sell everything and move south. I had a good job offer and took it. Took me 15 years of my life to make the money to move just caught me by surprise just wanted to make a living not looking to get rich. 99 percent of he homes were take over by the banks people just walk away from them. Rent was still good so I rented until the market would pick which unfortunately not until 10 years later. When I came back to Pa. it was a totally different world. You pick up the Pieces and keep moving on. Work hard and good will happen.

If it makes you feel any better...  I bought my current home while this mess was going on, but completely different issue.  Being in the Pittsburgh suburbs, there was no housing boom & crash, since we were already living in a recession or whatever it was called, not much to crash from here.  My issue came with the foundation of my house.  The value of my home took at least a $100k hit about 2 years into living here, on top of me spending $30k into "fixing" it...  Which was a nightmare fighting with people, getting engineers, attorneys and had to be done twice!  I was told by a real estate attorney at the time, it would be unsellable without fixing and expect to be worth around 80% after 10 years of no issues.  Not that it is the same thing, but I know what that gut punch feels like.  The stress that I went through during that time makes me angry even revisiting it...




If you are still in that same house....bet you won't have any of those problems right now if you wanted to sell it.  Houses in my "hood" are going through bidding wars right now and these are cookie cutter 1960's/1970's vintage Ryan home plans....crammed together.  Cash buyers, skipping inspections, disregarding flood insurance requirements or, not caring if they have to pay more for flood, etc., etc.....like times of old in the mid 2000's.  At least this time, most people are hopefully paying cash or, taking out conventional loans with the rock bottom interest rates and are not using ARM's to get into their over inflated homes (prices).  
I bet you could sell for much more than you would expect right now...I know the house down the street from me sold for $31k more than ask and their ask was probably $50k more than I thought would be a "reasonable" price for this house.  It is in a flood zone and has been flooded multiple times....
 
People are nutz!  That being said, if I could find a 4 bedroom, 2-3 bath house with 5-30 acres, mostly wooded, at a reasonable price (hahahahahahaha), I'd be outta here last week.
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Re: Trump... 2021/02/25 11:41:39 (permalink)
Hopefully the Pubes hold the line and force the demonrats to remove the min. wage language (plus a bunch of other unnecessary pork) and focus only on the Covid 19 direct relief.  TBH, based on inflation from when the min. wage was first introduced, the Min. wage is currently WELL above and beyond equivalent dollars....
 
I will not go on record saying it should be reduced but peeps shouldn't go on trying to justify it by cherry picked dates throughout the past.  
MyWar
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Re: Trump... 2021/02/25 21:15:38 (permalink)
Looks like $15 min wage is dead:

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/...witter_impression=true

As somebody who would very much like to see a min wage increase, this doesn’t surprise me or disappoint me too much. This should be in stand alone legislation (which will never get past a Republican senate filibuster).
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Re: Trump... 2021/02/25 23:57:14 (permalink)
 Said that over 3 weeks ago on the "Give me all your monies" thread. People get all worked up on a fishin' site without knowing the info way too often. Get informed before some ov yinzes have  heart failure 
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Re: Trump... 2021/02/26 09:19:56 (permalink)
I have a sneaking suspicion that they knew this wasn't able to be stuffed in this legislation as a play to the base.  
 
Half of the arguments that I saw on TV for the legislation, are exactly the reasons that I had issues with it.
 
"Here in DC, we have just approved the $15/hr minimum wage".  Considering DC cost of living is DOUBLE that of many small town America, why didn't they do $30/hr?  That really is what is being asked of much of small town America.
 
"There are 29 states that have their own minimum wage, X number of cities/counties and others that are adding legislation".  This is where the minimum wage debate should be had.  Or, if somehow the national minimum wage was variable for your localized cost of living index.  $15/hr in DC = $11/hr in Pittsburgh = $10/hr in Meadville = $8/hr in Podunk or wherever.
 
I am all for adjusting the minimum wage to a livable wage.  The country has about 200+ livable wages though.  If $15/hr is the minimum, then they should force DC, NYC & SF to pay $30/hr, Pittsburgh and other markets similar to $20/hr and smaller cities have to pay $18/hr, to be equivalent to $15/hr for the lowest cost of living areas.  Then we can all stand in bread lines and pay with our worthless dollars...
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