NEW LEGISLATION JUST INTRODUCED.

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dpms
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Re: NEW LEGISLATION JUST INTRODUCED. 2015/06/26 15:39:08 (permalink)
S-10
The reason hunting is different than the others is that most people rely on the good will of the landowners for a place to hunt. 80% of the landowners say the don't want you on their land on Sundays and many have said they will stop all hunting if it passes.

 
It is exactly the same. The fact is most people that fish, hike, atv ride, birdwatch, mountain bike, mushroom hunt etc....also do it on other peoples lands. All are legal every day of the week.  Why is it S-10, that hunting that should be the sole outdoor activity illegal for everyone, even on ones own land. That is the heart of the issue, my friend. 
 
Anyone that opposes the choice to hunt on Sunday in this state based on trespass or day of rest concerns but feels that biking, hiking, fishing, atv riding are fine on that very same day is a hypocrite. All involve trespass on private property. Hunting trespass is a fraction of the total trespass from all of the outdoor activities that occur. It is as simple as that. 
 
Owning land comes with unique issues. Mine are different than others. 
 
If it passes some land will we posted, no one knows how much but it is land lost to the hunter and lack of places to hunt is one of the top two reasons for hunters quitting.

 
Posted land has been a increasing trend nationwide for eons. Landowners threatened to post their land when afternoon spring turkey hunting was being discussed. Did some get posted? maybe. The deer plan resulted in tons of posted land. Go to some states, and most land is posted. If a landowner that allows hunting now really posts their land against all hunting, if SH passes, they either didn't like hunting in the first place, are a shortsighted idjiot, or will most likely re-open it after the initial hurt feelings subside and nothing happens. 
 
The other reason is lack of game and guess what Sunday hunting will do to game numbers.

 
The PGC has proven that they are perfectly willing and able to lower, raise, or maintain certain game populations that are mostly controlled by hunting with seasons and bag limits. Namely big game. They do not need SH to lower those populations if they wanted to. That angle is a red herring. They could reduce our deer population in 3 years without SH if they wanted to. For small game and many furbearers, this angle is irrelevant. 
 
You are trying to make a smoke and mirrors justification for Sunday hunting in spite of the PGC's own survey showing the results of it will lead to loss of hunters.



I am not aware of a PGC study that shows SH would result in a loss of hunters? Maybe I misinterpreted that wrong?  If you are implying that decreased game populations result in a loss of hunters, yes, that can be true. SH is irrelevant there as well. The PGC can lower deer populations as they wish with or without SH. And they can raise deer populations with and without it. The PGC decreased our herd significantly without SH. That angle is irrelevant. 
post edited by dpms - 2015/06/26 17:14:04

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Re: NEW LEGISLATION JUST INTRODUCED. 2015/06/26 16:10:08 (permalink)
You can rant all you want and twist the facts if you want just as the fisher gal has done in pushing this but the fact is 80% of landowners don't want you there and I doubt if they would take kindly to your name calling. They pay the taxes and don't need that attitude.  You should be more concerned about the hunters who will lose access because they will have to find new areas and may just decide your hunting spots look good.
 
No sense carrying this any further, good day.
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Re: NEW LEGISLATION JUST INTRODUCED. 2015/06/26 17:28:19 (permalink)
S-10
You can rant all you want and twist the facts if you want

 
What facts have I twisted? Almost all other outdoor activities take place predominantly on land not owned by the participants and all are legal except one. The PGC does not need SH to lower deer populations. They can do it with or without it. Hunting is safer than almost all other outdoors sports. Most states allow SH and there has been no measurable negative effects. Hunting is the only outdoor sport banned in this state on certain days and trespass occurs in most of them. What I am twisting?
 
the fact is 80% of landowners don't want you there

 
Where do you you get your facts that 80% of landowners oppose me hunting on Sundays on lands that would be open to it? I think it is way less than that. Of all the properties I currently hunt, none give a lick about it. 
 
and I doubt if they would take kindly to your name calling.

 
Maybe you misunderstod me. I referred to landowners that wish to be spiteful and close their currently open lands down to all hunting if SH becomes legal, which would be a fraction of those in existence. In those cases, yes some are idjiots. What purpose does any of that serve? Nothing? It will only make a point to the three unfortunate hunters that used to hunt there that will fade into obscurity in time.  Just the same as some landowners and the PFB calling hunting unsafe and stating to the press that the non hunting public should be fearful of hunters. Yes, they are idjiots. There would be hundreds of thousands of acres that would be open and the hundreds of thousands of landowners that would not change a thing with the passage of SH.
 
They pay the taxes and don't need that attitude.

 
Just because someone pays taxes does not make them immune from being challenged on issues. I own land and deal with trespassing as well. I actually can understand people who have concerns with trespassing. My opinion is that one activity should not be restricted and every other be fully unrestricted because of it. 
 
You should be more concerned about the hunters who will lose access because they will have to find new areas and may just decide your hunting spots look good.

 
I am. Have said it before. The PGC and some legislators wanted to sit down to discuss that very issue. Maybe a deal to increase trespass violations could have been worked out? That was on the table. As with all changes, there will be some that come out negatively. some will come out positively. Many more would benefit from SH than would be negatively affected. That is just the way it is. For every hunter that may lose a spot, other hunters will gain access to acreage that used to be closed by law.
 
No sense carrying this any further, good day.



Good day to you as well. I am sure WayneC will carry your torch.
 
 
post edited by dpms - 2015/06/26 17:47:45

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Re: NEW LEGISLATION JUST INTRODUCED. 2015/06/26 22:55:51 (permalink)
I'm with S-10 on this one. I believe more will be lost than gained.
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dpms
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Re: NEW LEGISLATION JUST INTRODUCED. 2015/06/27 08:36:03 (permalink)
Pa has 28 million acres. All of it closed to most hunting on Sundays. Much of it would be newly opened if SH were to pass. 
 
Yes, there will be some landowners that will shut their lands down to all hunting out of spite. I suspect that most will reopen in time if they truly did not mind hunters on their land. The boogeyman that is SH will stay under the bed and everyone will look at each other in 10 years and say "boy, what was all the fuss about".  
 
If I could have a discussion with my grandfather, I will be interested to see what he would think of our current hunting seasons. They are radically different that when he hunted, yet somehow, hunting in this state is pretty darn good for most species. Better than when he hunted for many of them. 

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Re: NEW LEGISLATION JUST INTRODUCED. 2015/06/27 16:08:52 (permalink)
HI............  guess whooo?
 
Been a couple of hours since anybody post a comment on this subject and it's raining "cats and dogs" so, I'm back!
 
Some really good points being made on this subject and what I like the most is the passion reflected in each thread.
 
A question I would like to pose is; why would the two politicians introducing this bill, put full control  into the hands of the PGC. (gee, makes one wonder who wrote this bill) If, the politicians were truly(not politically)concerned about the PA. hunter, would they not be wiser to introduce a bill that would start with Sunday hunting (for all species) on PA Gamelands?   Does not, getting a "foot in the door",  get better results compared to "push-n- shove".  
 
BUT WAIT.........  those 'public lands' are over-hunted.........  BULLCHYIT!     Oooops, sorrry, dang rant caught me off guard!
 
I'm still on the fence about hunting on Sunday but then again, I am an ole phart that despises the PGC's plan to reduce the whitetail deer herd for the sake of....... (waaait for it)............ increasing elk herds in PA. 
 
However,  cutting 'doe hunting' to one week is  a move in the right direction.  The best part was making the 'second week' of firearms 'doe season' and to that I say, it's a "foot in the door"
 
As for this proposal getting more land 'posted' I gotta say it will, in certain locations of the state.  My thinking ( ), counties where large communities of religious based families are farming/own land.  I'm not just looking at the Amish/Mennonite communities, I'm talking about the PA. farming community in general.  Many of these people attend the same church, belong to local granges and are members of the PFB.  Certainly, not all these people are opposed to Sunday hunting but, they will support those that do because they know, 'united they stand....'.
 
Yep, strange how a person will allow the killing of an animal 6 days of the week but, on Sunday, "not in my house".
See it how you will but, these people still have a right to their feelings and, in my book should be permitted to exercise that right,how they see fit.
 
We all are aware of the hunting clubs, leasing and posting land for members only hunting.   Clubs provide funds to lease land, buy signs and, manpower to accomplish the task of posting and maintaining signs.  Somebody(s) in that club took the initiative to; locate the land, contact the landowner and, negotiate a lease contract.  And it's no secret   for clubs to have members become dissatisfied, for whatever reason, and leave only to seek happier hunting grounds.
 
Hang in there, my point is about to be made..............
 
Some may be aware of the 'new sheriff in town', he's the guy that does the leg work finding the land, setting up the lease contract(no sunday hunting), gets the land posted, then subleases the land to you.  You lease what you can afford, be it an acre or a hundred acres, the land now becomes your private hunting reserve.  A few buddies get together, lease what they can each afford and no more hunting club!
 
Finding land to lease may be difficult for the sheriff, until landowners are pizzed off by politicians trying to save their political azss pushing for a law that landowners may object to.   In rides the sheriff, bidding goodwill with a plan that will generate; income for the landowner, free labor to post/maintain free signs and, prevent SUNDAY HUNTING on the land.  Word of the lease offer spreads among the landowner community via church meetings or the ho-downs at the local grange.  Not wanting to cause discontent among my neighbors, even though I only own a few acres and I don't oppose the bill, I jump on the bandwagon!  Eventually one becomes many be it, 1 acre of land or one landowner.  
 
If ya think I'm out in left field with this one, Google "lease hunting land in PA."... I dare ya.
 
 When you stop and think that, this idea will be opposed by a very powerful organization having strong opposition against Sunday hunting!  I for one can't help but feel, these two politicians must be morons if they think a bill like this will make it past the trash can.  Errrrrrr, maybe they think we're the morons.........  nah, they wouldn't think that!
 
Do ya think the landowners and farmers would support Sunday hunting if the PGC provided and posted the land, free of charge, with this sign?
 

 
Or would the sheriff stand a better chance if he provides the farmer/owner with an income along with providing and posting, free of charge, this sign? 
 

 
Ummm maybe the law will pass, politicians get re-elected, the PGC gets free range to do as they please aaaaaaand, 'erybody be HAppy, happy............, happy.
 
MAYBE in your dreams...................
 
I gotta get.
post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2015/06/27 16:21:53

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dpms
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Re: NEW LEGISLATION JUST INTRODUCED. 2015/06/27 16:27:08 (permalink)
BeenThereDoneThat. 
I'm still on the fence about hunting on Sunday but then again, I am an ole phart that despises the PGC's plan to reduce the whitetail deer herd for the sake of....... (waaait for it)............ increasing elk herds in PA.

 
As I said before, the PGC can increase or decrease deer populations with or without SH. They have proven that to be the case. That is what cracks me up about those that feel SH is all about reducing the deer population. They can do it quite easily already. SH is irrelevant in this case. 
 
Do ya think the landowners and farmers would support Sunday hunting if the PGC provided and posted the land charge, this sign?

 

 
Interestingly, when SH was being discussed before, the PGC and some politicians wanted to sit down and discuss concerns with landowners. Increased trespassing penalties and free signage was on the table. The other side didn't want to participate in the discussion. 
 

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Re: NEW LEGISLATION JUST INTRODUCED. 2015/06/27 17:03:41 (permalink)
That's my point "D", the PA. farmers/landowners do not want anything to do with 'SH" no matter what the PGC and hunters put on the table.  However, land continues to be posted and much of it is from the guys leasing and subleasing.  Landowners get fed up with 'whatever they get fed-up with' and take advantage of some guy offering income and free posting of their land for the right to hunt and/or fish.  Some landowners get so fired-up with whatever fired them up and proceed to convince others to join in on the good deal made leasing the land for hunting/fishing rights.
 
Another point; the PGC would be further off to start with keeping Sunday hunting to the state game lands but, for reasons unknown, the PGC insist they should be the judge and jury as to when, where and, what should be hunted on Sunday.  Why, if there is no devious intentions by the PGC (or someone with-in), must they have such power concerning Sunday hunting? 
 
I dunno, maybe it's a ploy just to get their foot in the door.  Maybe they are willing to negotiate or, make it appear they will negotiate, when in fact they are only after Sunday hunting on game lands.  I do know they are making a lot of people nervous.
 
Time will tell, meanwhile I'll stay on the fence, where it's a bit safer as there seems to be a lot of snakes in the grass with this issue.
 
PS. did ya check out that web site?  There's or, was around 400 acres available not far from me.  I Googled the area when I saw the advertisement and sure enough that area is now posted with signs but, I don't know if it's all been subleased.

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
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dpms
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Re: NEW LEGISLATION JUST INTRODUCED. 2015/06/27 20:24:10 (permalink)
BeenThereDoneThat.
That's my point "D", the PA. farmers/landowners do not want anything to do with 'SH" no matter what the PGC and hunters put on the table.

 
It is true the Pa farm Bureau opposes SH, but they speak for a minute fraction of landowners. There are members of the PFB that support SH. Of all the land I currently have access to, not one gives a lick about SH. Both urban and very rural.
 
Another point; the PGC would be further off to start with keeping Sunday hunting to the state game lands but, for reasons unknown, the PGC insist they should be the judge and jury as to when, where and, what should be hunted on Sunday.  Why, if there is no devious intentions by the PGC (or someone with-in), must they have such power concerning Sunday hunting?

 
The PGC is the agency that is tasked with regulating hunting in this state. Of course that want the authority to do so 365 days of the year. What other state agency does their duties on a part time basis? It is the responsibility of the general assembly to oversee all state agencies. In the case of SH, the general assembly directly regulates hunting 52 days of the year. The agency that is tasked with regulating hunting in this state, it prevented by law from doing so on one day of the week. How absurd is that, when you look at every other state agency. 
 
I dunno, maybe it's a ploy just to get their foot in the door.  Maybe they are willing to negotiate or, make it appear they will negotiate, when in fact they are only after Sunday hunting on game lands.  I do know they are making a lot of people nervous.

 
The PGC can pretty much do what they want with game populations with or without SH. Some people are nervous about the PGC now, and would always be, even without SH. 
 
Time will tell, meanwhile I'll stay on the fence, where it's a bit safer as there seems to be a lot of snakes in the grass with this issue.

 
Curious what snakes in the grass you are referring to regarding SH. On just about every issue there are people and issues intertwined into them
 
PS. did ya check out that web site?  There's or, was around 400 acres available not far from me.  I Googled the area when I saw the advertisement and sure enough that area is now posted with signs but, I don't know if it's all been subleased.



Must have missed what you are referring to? What website? 

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#39
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Re: NEW LEGISLATION JUST INTRODUCED. 2015/06/27 20:32:55 (permalink)
DPMS --While it's true the PGC can reduce the deer herd without Sunday hunting, they cannot do it without being obvious about it and further alienating both the hunters and legislature which would put  more negative pressure on them. By ignoring their own surveys and pretending to be helping the hunters by adding Sunday(even though more than half have said they do not want it) they can continue to reduce the deer herd with a lesser amount of negative reaction.
 
As far as opening up 28 million acres to Sunday hunting most of the public land by your own admission is over harvested now and you will lose more private land to ALL hunting for a net loss not even counting the further reduction of an already decimated wildlife population statewide. Look at the PGC's own game estimates, woodcock down. grouse down. ring necks down, rabbits down, squirrels down. deer down, they just finished a turkey survey to determine why they are down by a third statewide from three decades ago. Unless you hunt bear or coyotes the good old days were your grand dad's contrary to your prior claim. there are isolated pockets of good hunting but statewide it is all way down.
 
The folks looking to put more pressure on the states wildlife are either idiots, selfish landowners caring only about themselves in the short term, or have an anti hunting bias and are merely trying to discourage more hunters to get them to drop out. The PGC's own survey showed the two top reasons folks are dropping out is lack of game and lack of places to hunt. You are pushing to make both situations worse. Which category do you fall in?
post edited by S-10 - 2015/06/27 21:00:25
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Re: NEW LEGISLATION JUST INTRODUCED. 2015/06/27 21:22:41 (permalink)
Sorry, only recommended people do a search, didn't really want to post the actual sites but here ya go.
 
http://www.basecampleasing.com/land/pennsylvania-hunting-leases.htm.
 
Check it out, you can pick the area of your choice and a satellite map of the area will zoom in for ya, for a closer look see!  If ya like what you're seeing all ya gotta do is sign on the dotted line and bingo.......  your very own hunting reserve!  That nobody else can hunt, without your permission. 
Been fun........ gotta run
 
PS. If ya don't like the above web site, just type "leasing land to hunt in PA." into your search engine.  Maybe one of those sites will work for ya.
 
 
 
PSS. Keep in mind, it could be:   
 
 
 
post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2015/06/27 21:31:07

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#41
dpms
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Re: NEW LEGISLATION JUST INTRODUCED. 2015/06/27 21:26:45 (permalink)
S-10
DPMS --While it's true the PGC can reduce the deer herd without Sunday hunting, they cannot do it without being obvious about it and further alienating both the hunters and legislature which would put  more negative pressure on them. By ignoring their own surveys and pretending to be helping the hunters by adding Sunday(even though more than half have said they do not want it) they can continue to reduce the deer herd with a lesser amount of negative reaction.

 
I think they were pretty obvious about it in the form of herd reduction. It was sold along with AR, but hunters caught on pretty darn quick. If you are implying that SH is all about wanting to reduce the herd further, I believe you are way off base. They could increase allocations by a few thousands here and there and get the job done. Most hunters are clueless when it comes to regulations, allocations, and the workings of the PGC. They buy their licenses and go hunting. That is part of the reason our herd was able to be dropped so fast with hunters help. Most do not even think about the ramifications of filling all of those doe tags. 
 
BTW, in case you did not know, this board has continued to keep allocations under biologists recommendations. That is just the ebb and flow of changes on the board. 
 
Some of the latest surveys I saw on the issue has 50% supporting Sunday deer hunting. About 75% supporting a regulatory transfer to the PGC and 75% supporting Sunday hunting for small game.
 
As far as opening up 28 million acres to Sunday hunting most of the public land by your own admission is over harvested now and you will lose more private land to ALL hunting for a net loss not even counting the further reduction of an already decimated wildlife population statewide. Look at the PGC's own game estimates, woodcock down. grouse down. ring necks down, rabbits down, squirrels down. deer down, they just finished a turkey survey to determine why they are down by a third statewide from three decades ago. Unless you hunt bear or coyotes the good old days were your grand dad's contrary to your prior claim. there are isolated pockets of good hunting but statewide it is all way down.

 
Some private land will be lost. I suspect most of it will re-open in time. Some landowners will just not allow hunting on Sundays. Some landowners will not change a thing and the millions of private acres that were closed before will now be open. 
 
Most game populations are good. Some are poor. Some are expanding. Woodcock, grouse, pheasant, rabbits, and squirrel populations are not controlled by hunting. So those species are irrelevant as it relates to SH. Deer populations were brought down purposely but our harvest remains good to above average compared to other states. Turkey numbers are down but the current consensus seems to be it is not related to hunting. Again, irrelevant. Bear and elk numbers are increasing and they are expanding their range. So, again, irrelevant. 
 
That brings us back to deer. Whose numbers have ebbed and flowed without SH. The numbers can be increased or decreased with or without it. SH will bring nothing new to the table other than one additional day of the week a hunter may be able to hunt. The PGC is tasked with managing it all. As I said, they have proven to be able to do what they want without it.
 
The folks looking to put more pressure on the states wildlife are either idiots, selfish landowners caring only about themselves in the short term, or have an anti hunting bias and are merely trying to discourage more hunters to get them to drop out. The PGC's own survey showed the two top reasons folks are dropping out is lack of game and lack of places to hunt. You are pushing to make both situations worse. Which category do you fall in?



None of the above because I have shown your concerns about game populations to be pretty much irrelevant. The only species that has the potential to be impacted by a few additional high harvest days is deer. No others are really in play. And, the PGC has proven that they can do what they want with deer with or without it. 
 
As far as lost land. I have made my case. We will lose more to the ever increasing practice of posting land as time goes on, that we would specifically from SH. Without SH, in tens years, we will have more posted land that would would in 5 years with SH. We aregoing to end up in the same place anyways. Land that is specifically posted to all hunting with SH, will re-open in time if hunters were truly welcome in the first place. 
 
So, in closing, the category I fall into is one that believes hunters should support game agencies regulating hunting and not politicians. I could put a pretty specific label on you for choosing politicians over game agencies at a time when hunters, guns, and hunters rights are under attack like never before with some success. 
 
But I won't

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dpms
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Re: NEW LEGISLATION JUST INTRODUCED. 2015/06/27 21:31:52 (permalink)
deleted.
 
post edited by dpms - 2015/06/27 21:47:44

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Re: NEW LEGISLATION JUST INTRODUCED. 2015/06/27 21:50:32 (permalink)
Sunday hunting; There is more support for a regulatory transfer every time it comes up. It may be awhile, but we will see it in time. Lots of data debunking every concern.

 
Pretty much incorrect all the way round.   The more support is mostly from some who have no life, yet hate deer, lobbying hard every day including getting people and organizations from out of state involved that don't know or care about the full story.   There is also no data debunking any of the legitimate concerns, that's a flat out lie.
 
As for hunters, I have seen many against it and many for it, and I haven't seen one person change their minds one way or the other since say, 5 years ago.    Not much has changed.  
 
As far as landowners threatening to close their lands down to all hunting. Pathetic and childish.
   
 
Its their land.   Frankly I don't care how mature or immature anyone is if they allow their lands to be used by us for hunting.
 
 If you don't like the stink, don't buy a dairy farm. PGC again reiterated support for a regulatory transfer. 

 
The "stink" didn't exist when those against sunday hunting bought that land.    You want to bring the stink to them now that they did.
 
post edited by wayne c - 2015/06/27 22:01:50


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Re: NEW LEGISLATION JUST INTRODUCED. 2015/06/27 21:56:03 (permalink)
Your claim of game numbers being irrelevant is only irrelevant in your own mind. It is game numbers that drive the whole hunting program.
 
As for Wayne's claims, based on your comments it is obvious you have been angling to get your quill in the game agency for some reason and it is not to help hunter retention or addition. You ignore the PGC's own surveys, ignore the landowners wishes, ignore half the hunting populations wish's, and ignore or sidestep the documented dimished game populations. 
 
Maybe you are your own one man wrecking crew. For sure your actions will not help in adding new hunters or retaining old ones. Less compettion for you perhaps. G,nite
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Re: NEW LEGISLATION JUST INTRODUCED. 2015/06/27 21:57:00 (permalink)
As I said before, the PGC can increase or decrease deer populations with or without SH. They have proven that to be the case. That is what cracks me up about those that feel SH is all about reducing the deer population. They can do it quite easily already. SH is irrelevant in this case. 

 
Nope sorry.   Incorrect.    There is absolutely no way they can do it now, that is, take the herd as low as they would like across the state.   Impossible.    Lower than now, maybe.    But not where they want to be.    The political pressure from legislators is too hard against it, they will at some point also need a fee increase, and many hunters are tired of the agenda.   Sunday hunting is the key.   #1 tool of reduction.    They can make up all kinds of "other" reasons for it to camo the fact its a huge herd reduction tool that would, when coupled with a fee increase in near future, would allow them to go full force ahead and nothing stopping it.     For you to say they could significantly increase tags or some other bone headed move to make just as much difference and be just as "acceptable" is down-right laughable and nothing more than a self serving statement I think you are smart enough to realize simply isn't true dpms.


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Re: NEW LEGISLATION JUST INTRODUCED. 2015/06/27 22:13:09 (permalink)
"Maybe you are your own one man wrecking crew."
 
Actually his efforts as usual are closely aligned and correlated with several others from Pfsc/hush.     Its been my experience over the last 10+ years, dpms is very closely affiliated with their efforts on pretty much all the issues.   Have seen them in action for years on the internet as well as having been privy to quite a bit of legislator received commentary.      Very orchestrated efforts all 'round. 


#47
dpms
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Re: NEW LEGISLATION JUST INTRODUCED. 2015/06/28 08:30:24 (permalink)
S-10
Your claim of game numbers being irrelevant is only irrelevant in your own mind. It is game numbers that drive the whole hunting program.

 
Other than deer, SH and game are irrelevant. It is not in my own mind. You brought up "decimated" game populations and SH would reduce them further.  Woodcock, rabbit, grouse, pheasant, dove populations are not controlled by hunting.  Turkey populations are down but the current concensus seems to be it is not related to hunting. Elk and bear populations are growing. All of the above irrelevant. It is as simple as that. Yes deer is relevant and we have gone around on that. The PGC can do what they want with deer with or without SH.
 
Game numbers are important for sure. The program with your angle is only one game animal comes into play and that is deer. 
 
As for Wayne's claims, based on your comments it is obvious you have been angling to get your quill in the game agency for some reason and it is not to help hunter retention or addition.

 
No clue there. Doesn't surprise me that you would make that assertion though.
 
You ignore the PGC's own surveys, ignore the landowners wishes, ignore half the hunting populations wish's, and ignore or sidestep the documented dimished game populations.

 
I haven't ignored them at all. I have addressed every one of them and got pretty darn specific on some of them. Actually one side wanted to sit down and directly discuss them. Which side would that be? Wait for it.... Wait for it..... Wait for it...... It was the pro SH side. Pretty much shoots that assertion in the foot. 
 
Maybe you are your own one man wrecking crew. For sure your actions will not help in adding new hunters or retaining old ones. Less compettion for you perhaps. G,nite



Good morning. It is quite amusing watching this discussion here and also watching the same discussion from those where SH has been legal for a very long time. You gloom and doom folks have reality punching you in the nose every time you open your eyes. The fact is this law is religious based and does not exist in most of the nation at the present time. Most of the nation seems to be doing quite well with SH. Hunting is the only outdoor activity banned in this state on a certain day of the week. All of the other outdoor activities also involve trespass on private property and they are responsible for more trespass than hunting. Hunting has been proven safer than most of them as well. 
 
 

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#48
dpms
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Re: NEW LEGISLATION JUST INTRODUCED. 2015/06/28 08:36:19 (permalink)
wayne c 
Nope sorry.   Incorrect.    There is absolutely no way they can do it now, that is, take the herd as low as they would like across the state.   Impossible.    Lower than now, maybe.    But not where they want to be.    The political pressure from legislators is too hard against it, they will at some point also need a fee increase, and many hunters are tired of the agenda.   Sunday hunting is the key.   #1 tool of reduction.    



OMG. You have totally fallen off your rocker. For you to imply that the PGC needs SH to take the herd lower is almost grounds for being locked up in the crazy house. The role of the general assembly is oversight. With SH, if the PGC began to take numbers lower, regardless of the hows, the general assembly would step in as they have been doing now with various means of pressure or possibly outright legislation. You see, oversight does not change, with or without SH.  If the PGC can't do it without SH, they sure as hell won't be able to with SH, if the general assembly stays in touch as they have been.
 
Debunked!!
post edited by dpms - 2015/06/28 08:56:32

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#49
dpms
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Re: NEW LEGISLATION JUST INTRODUCED. 2015/06/28 08:42:29 (permalink)
wayne c 
Actually his efforts as usual are closely aligned and correlated with several others from Pfsc/hush.     Its been my experience over the last 10+ years, dpms is very closely affiliated with their efforts on pretty much all the issues.   Have seen them in action for years on the internet as well as having been privy to quite a bit of legislator received commentary.      Very orchestrated efforts all 'round. 



 
Again, since this seems to be all he has. I am not a PFSC member nor affiliated with them. I did not donate to HUSH, nor am I affiliated with them either. I have never been part of a discussion with either organization about SH.  I feel the PFSC has lost its way on many issues. 
 
I am just one many trying to make a difference. That is all. 
 
Now, I could turn around and try to throw mud at Wayne and label him since many of his views kinda parallel groups that are not friendly to hunters. But.... I won't.  I am better than that. 
 
All of our hearts are in the right place. We just have differences of opinions. If the majority of sportsman gave a rats behind about hunting, we would all be much better off. The reality is few hunters care, and even fewer do anything about it. 

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#50
S-10
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Re: NEW LEGISLATION JUST INTRODUCED. 2015/06/28 09:04:40 (permalink)
DPMS ---you say woodcock, rabbit, grouse, pheasant , and turkey numbers are not controlled by hunting. The PGC was established because overhunting was the cause of game loss. That is the whole reason for seasons and bag limits. It wasn't natural causes that led to the extinction of the passenger pigeon. I think your assertions are the ones debunked.
 
As for oversight, we all saw how long and how many letters and calls that has taken to get any action on the deer and the PGC is still trying to circumvent their pressure. You have, and HUSH has, committed to pushing for Sunday hunting and just like the liberals with gun control you will tell whatever tale is necessary to advance that cause.  Your misleading statements, omissions, ignoring the facts, and stating that your claims are settled facts are all trademarks of the liberal anti gunners.  You may not be one but you sure have taken their tactics.
post edited by S-10 - 2015/06/28 09:06:29
#51
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Re: NEW LEGISLATION JUST INTRODUCED. 2015/06/28 09:09:02 (permalink)
S-10
DPMS ---you say woodcock, rabbit, grouse, pheasant , and turkey numbers are not controlled by hunting. The PGC was established because overhunting was the cause of game loss. That is the whole reason for seasons and bag limits. It wasn't natural causes that led to the extinction of the passenger pigeon. I think your assertions are the ones debunked.

 
Unregulated hunting can certainly have an effect. In this state, those specie populations are not controlled by hunting. We have seen decreased numbers of those species from causes other than hunting. 
 
As I said. Debunked.
 
As for oversight, we all saw how long and how many letters and calls that has taken to get any action on the deer and the PGC is still trying to circumvent their pressure. You have, and HUSH has, committed to pushing for Sunday hunting and just like the liberals with gun control you will tell whatever tale is necessary to advance that cause.  Your misleading statements, omissions, ignoring the facts, and stating that your claims are settled facts are all trademarks of the liberal anti gunners.

 
Oversight is there my friend.  It was and still is. Nothing I have said is not true. 





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#52
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Re: NEW LEGISLATION JUST INTRODUCED. 2015/06/28 09:45:35 (permalink)
Debunked  are your claims---- The PGC WAS ESTABLISHED to enact and enforce game laws and bag limits. There is no other reason for them if not to prevent overharvesting. Are you awake yet?
 
You are claiming adding an additional day of  hunting per week, the day when most people are free to hunt will not increase the harvest of game species the PGC has already admitted is down in numbers. You say increasing hunting pressure by 15% or more will make no difference in game numbers. And you want to be taken seriously.
 
You claim oversight is there. If so how did we get to this place. We doubled the bag limit on gobblers and increased the length of the season from half day to all day at the same time we were doing a 4 year study to see why their numbers are down over 30% statewide. Oversight?Really? LOL
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Re: NEW LEGISLATION JUST INTRODUCED. 2015/06/28 11:37:28 (permalink)
Ummmmmm.......... If yinz don't mind me askin'.............. Did you guys get any sleep last night?

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
 
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Re: NEW LEGISLATION JUST INTRODUCED. 2015/06/28 11:42:26 (permalink)
OMG. You have totally fallen off your rocker. For you to imply that the PGC needs SH to take the herd lower is almost grounds for being locked up in the crazy house.

 
It appears that your irrational emotions and current argument with s-10 either caused you to speed read and not pay attention to the part of my post you were addressing, or you simply have no logical retort to actually what I said and twisted/exaggerated my position into something else. You didn't address what I said, but addressed something else altogether.  
 
For the record here is what I said;
 
There is absolutely no way they can do it now, that is, take the herd as low as they would like across the state.   Impossible.    Lower than now, maybe.  The political pressure from legislators is too hard against it, they will at some point also need a fee increase, and many hunters are tired of the agenda.   Sunday hunting is the key.   #1 tool of reduction.    They can make up all kinds of "other" reasons for it to camo the fact its a huge herd reduction tool that would, when coupled with a fee increase in near future, would allow them to go full force ahead and nothing stopping it.     For you to say they could significantly increase tags or some other bone headed move to make just as much difference and be just as "acceptable" is down-right laughable and nothing more than a self serving statement I think you are smart enough to realize simply isn't true dpms.  

 
 
The role of the general assembly is oversight.
   
 
Absolutely.  And you and a few others whine every time they exercise their duties based on that oversight.  Currently they understood their constituents did not support sunday hunting expansion and that is why it hasn't passed, regardless of what you think about it, they did their jobs to this point.

 
Debunked!!

 
Bunk!!
post edited by wayne c - 2015/06/28 11:45:34


#55
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Re: NEW LEGISLATION JUST INTRODUCED. 2015/06/28 11:55:27 (permalink)
Again, since this seems to be all he has. I am not a PFSC member nor affiliated with them. I did not donate to HUSH, nor am I affiliated with them either. I have never been part of a discussion with either organization about SH.  I feel the PFSC has lost its way on many issues. 

 
First off, I never said you were a member or not a member.   Frankly I don't care either way.  You are part of their efforts in lobbying closely with coordinated efforts.  And on that, Im not guessing or speculating.   And you can carefully pick your words all you like.   It is what it is.   Though for the record, I don't blame you if you don't want to admit that ya'all work together on issues.   Some of them have lost a lot of credibility these days with many legislators.  
  
 


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Re: NEW LEGISLATION JUST INTRODUCED. 2015/06/28 12:06:09 (permalink)
As for oversight, we all saw how long and how many letters and calls that has taken to get any action on the deer and the PGC is still trying to circumvent their pressure. You have, and HUSH has, committed to pushing for Sunday hunting and just like the liberals with gun control you will tell whatever tale is necessary to advance that cause.  Your misleading statements, omissions, ignoring the facts, and stating that your claims are settled facts are all trademarks of the liberal anti gunners.

 
Funny you should say this because for the last few years, the support for sunday hunting has been coming from dems largely, with the more conservative, gun supporting republicans being the ones opposed!    To counter this, some of the libs pushing this since day one sought out help from groups like nra to try to help pressure the repubs to change their minds.  Funniest part is, some of those going to them for help are the most liberal type environmentalist hard liners out there and posing as god fearin', gun loving conservatives. lol     Its a tangled tangled web that they are weavin' my friend.     


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Re: NEW LEGISLATION JUST INTRODUCED. 2015/06/28 12:19:26 (permalink)
S-10The PGC WAS ESTABLISHED to enact and enforce game laws and bag limits. There is no other reason for them if not to prevent overharvesting. Are you awake yet?

 
Yep. I agree. Some would argue that deer have been overharvested. I tend to agree. Deer were underharvested under the PGC as well. Point is, that is the ebb and flow of game management. Right now, we seem to be moving towards a will to increase populations. Some thing that can be done with or without SH. Just as they can be reduced. 
 
You are claiming adding an additional day of  hunting per week, the day when most people are free to hunt will not increase the harvest of game species the PGC has already admitted is down in numbers. You say increasing hunting pressure by 15% or more will make no difference in game numbers. And you want to be taken seriously.

 
I did not say additional pressure would not result in an increased harvest. What I said was an additional day would not affect the total population of most of our species we hunt. That is a distinct difference, S-10. It is a simple concept. Really it is. Adding Sundays would not affect most of our game populations one bit. Total populations are controlled by other factors on a great majority of them. 
 
You claim oversight is there. If so how did we get to this place. We doubled the bag limit on gobblers and increased the length of the season from half day to all day at the same time we were doing a 4 year study to see why their numbers are down over 30% statewide. Oversight?Really? LOL



We got into this position for several reasons. As I said before, other than deer, most every other species is irrelevant as it relates to SH. The general assembly is tasked with oversight. If they do not do their duty, it is partly their fault as well if there are issues. The PGC is the agency tasked with regulating hunting in this state, but are the only agency that does it on a part time basis. I support oversight of the PGC. That is how it is supposed to work.
post edited by dpms - 2015/06/28 12:39:51

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#58
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Re: NEW LEGISLATION JUST INTRODUCED. 2015/06/28 12:23:39 (permalink)
wayne c  
Absolutely.  And you and a few others whine every time they exercise their duties based on that oversight.  Currently they understood their constituents did not support sunday hunting expansion and that is why it hasn't passed, regardless of what you think about it, they did their jobs to this point.



In regards to oversight, it depends on each individual bill or concern. It is factually incorrect(as usual about your assumptions of me) to state that I whine every time the general assembly chimes in on the PGC. 
 

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#59
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Re: NEW LEGISLATION JUST INTRODUCED. 2015/06/28 12:28:54 (permalink)
wayne c 
First off, I never said you were a member or not a member.   Frankly I don't care either way.  You are part of their efforts in lobbying closely with coordinated efforts.  And on that, Im not guessing or speculating.   And you can carefully pick your words all you like.   It is what it is.   Though for the record, I don't blame you if you don't want to admit that ya'all work together on issues.   Some of them have lost a lot of credibility these days with many legislators.  



You are absolutely guessing or speculating, and as usual, are incorrect. I have not worked with or together on the issue of SH with any org or any person representing or linked to a org. Some of those you speak of have lost credibility. That is why I  approach issues myself as a individual sportsman with a voice. It has worked well so far. 
 
You obviously care as you keep repeatedly keep bringing up false assertions as an attempt to discredit me. It isn't working. 

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