erie tribs

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nut
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2008/01/16 11:16:33 (permalink)

erie tribs

any body have any idea of the amount of steelhead that would be in the tribs if the PFBC did not stock them? i mean with "normal" fishing pressure, such as at your local trout stream. just natural reproduction and mother nature would be the constants.

the early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

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    Skip16503
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    RE: erie tribs 2008/01/16 11:20:37 (permalink)
    A BIG ZERO

     



    #2
    nut
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    RE: erie tribs 2008/01/16 11:26:57 (permalink)
    i don't think so, the catfish, bass and walleyes all go upstream to spawn, yet they aren't fished out. true they don't live in the stream forclose to half the year.

    the early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

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    #3
    KJH807
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    RE: erie tribs 2008/01/16 11:29:54 (permalink)
    0
    the steelhead in Erie are not native...
    it is a manufacutred fishery...
    no stocking would lead to no fish in 7 years...
    #4
    Bughawk
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    RE: erie tribs 2008/01/16 11:38:51 (permalink)
    I don't know if it would be zero, but it would be extremely few.  My guess is if PA stopped stocking steelies, as already mentioned in less than 10 years they would be very rare.  The few you would find most likely would be fish from New York or Ohio stockings.
     
    As for natural reproduction, the experts say there is absolutely no way it can happen, but there is some andectotal evidence that a very small amount may be occuring.  Even if there was a small amount of natural reproduction, that would not be enough to sustain the fishery as it is right now.
     
    My understanding is that without stocking, the steelhead fishery in PA would collapse.

    pax vobiscum +
    #5
    tippy-toe
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    RE: erie tribs 2008/01/16 12:09:25 (permalink)
    Let me ask you this... How many Coho's are in the stream since the stocking stoped??
     
    That will answer you question...
     
    PEACE

    I have the right to remain silent.....I just don't have the ability
    #6
    centerpin_drift
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    RE: erie tribs 2008/01/16 12:32:06 (permalink)
    Good answer tippy! few far and in between i must say that i did catch 3 last year 07 all came from elk Early.                               centerpin_drift!
    #7
    spoonchucker
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    RE: erie tribs 2008/01/16 13:00:01 (permalink)
    "As for natural reproduction, the experts say there is absolutely no way it can happen,"
     
    Bug,
     
    The experts do NOT say that. In fact they recognize that there is a LIMITED amount of natural reproduction. What they do say, is that it is not sufficient to sustain a population.
     
     

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    #8
    krott243
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    RE: erie tribs 2008/01/16 13:16:49 (permalink)
    So if they can reproduce and make it, then whats the problem getting in their way of sustaining a population of natural reproducted fish?  Thanks, Krott

    The Lord has blessed us all today... It's just that he has been particularly good to me.
    #9
    tippy-toe
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    RE: erie tribs 2008/01/16 13:24:57 (permalink)
     
    Summer water temps, suitable spawning grounds.... There is probably more but thats off the top of my head.
     
    There is no doubt natural repro. I caught a steelie this fall about 3 inches long in an Erie trib. There is just not enough to sustain the fishery as we know it.

    I have the right to remain silent.....I just don't have the ability
    #10
    KJH807
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    RE: erie tribs 2008/01/16 13:27:27 (permalink)
    a "limted amount"  means that maybe 100 fish in all of the PA run in a given year are wild...
    that is maybe half the amount of fish in manchester hole...
     
    there are close to 2million smolts stocked a year...
     
    PA will never have a measureable population of wild steelhead...
    #11
    Bughawk
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    RE: erie tribs 2008/01/16 13:38:40 (permalink)
    Spoon,
     
    I was using the word "expert" in reference to our resident experts on the site....  I personally do believe there is some natural reproduction and as you say it is not sufficient to sustain the fishery.

    pax vobiscum +
    #12
    spoonchucker
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    RE: erie tribs 2008/01/16 13:46:22 (permalink)
    Krott,
     
    Let's say 1,000 return to spawn, and we have even an unrealistic 10% success rate. Even if all survive to return, that's only 100 fish. So let's say the success rate doubles to 20%. That's only 20 fish in the following run. It of course would be different if ( as in other species ) you had in subsequent years, both the parents AND off spring spawning, but that is not the case. Few survive to spawn a second time, and fewer if any a third time. And NO it has nothing to do with them being roped.
     
     

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    #13
    fishrmn
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    RE: erie tribs 2008/01/16 13:46:54 (permalink)
    I highly doubt that steelhead in the PA tribs would become "very rare" within the next few years.  Strays from Canadian waters, New York, Ohio, Michigan, plus wild fish...  There would still be hundreds, if not thousands of fish running the PA streams...  I'd be willing to bet there are more wild fish around than what most people think aswell...  They are just highly shadowed by the insane amount of stocked fish.

    I believe the reason you might not see many wild cohos is because they have a harder time hatching/surviving in PA waters.  Not only do they lay their eggs in the fall...  But I believe they spend a longer time in the streams as fry than steelhead (correct me if I'm wrong...).  I did see a few WAY up in a trib on the 30th of December this season, only caught one of them.

    -Tim
    post edited by fishrmn - 2008/01/16 13:49:30
    #14
    krott243
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    RE: erie tribs 2008/01/16 13:57:11 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: spoonchucker

    Krott,

    Let's say 1,000 return to spawn, and we have even an unrealistic 10% success rate. Even if all survive to return, that's only 100 fish. So let's say the success rate doubles to 20%. That's only 20 fish in the following run. It of course would be different if ( as in other species ) you had in subsequent years, both the parents AND off spring spawning, but that is not the case. Few survive to spawn a second time, and fewer if any a third time. And NO it has nothing to do with them being roped.




    Thanks spoon, I never said nothin about fish being roped..lol

    The Lord has blessed us all today... It's just that he has been particularly good to me.
    #15
    spoonchucker
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    RE: erie tribs 2008/01/16 14:11:27 (permalink)
    Others will, others will

    Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

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    The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody.

    GL
    #16
    indsguiz
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    RE: erie tribs 2008/01/16 15:37:49 (permalink)
    Nut,
          I would imagine that if the upper reaches of the creeks were made "off limits", no fishing, or wading, the natural reproduction process whould be much greater.  I can never see it as being even close to what the state stocks.  The fish need gravel bottoms; cold, well oxygenated water; the redds need to be undisturbed (no wading through them) and the parent fish must be left alone for long enough to establish the redds and to spawn.   I can hear the screams if the state would not allow fishing way upstream on the tribs.  And you're right spoon, I have also seen small steelies on the upper tribs that shouldn't be there.

    Illegitimis Non carborundum
    #17
    Bughawk
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    RE: erie tribs 2008/01/16 15:48:37 (permalink)
    It would be an interesting experiment to stop stocking fish for say 2 or 3 years and see what happens.  That way we would know for sure what the fishery would be like if it were left on its own.  I don't see that happening anytime soon.
     
    Indsguiz - I think you are right about people pitching a fit about not fishing the upper portions of the creeks, but if it meant a natural population of fish it might be worth it.  Also, I have caught some of those fish that are not supposed to be there.
     
    On a slightly different topic, does anyone know if they stock any small browns in Walnut creek during the fall?  Each year I catch one or two about the size of normal stockies in the project area and wonder where these guys come from.  This fall I caught a really strange, tiny, I mean about 4 inches long tiny, trout in the project waters of Walnut.  I was silver and looked kinda like a little steelie smolt.  That was a real surprise.

    pax vobiscum +
    #18
    spoonchucker
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    RE: erie tribs 2008/01/16 15:57:36 (permalink)
    Indy,
     
    I wouldn't REALLy be opposed to it, but doubt it would change things significanly. Water temps. are a much greater factor. Plus even if the NP rate doubled, or even tripled it still would not be sustainable. Most of the NP is occuring on spring fed tribs. to the tribs. One might make an arguement for making these off limit, but they see little if any angling pressure anyway

    Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

    Step Up, or Step Aside


    The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody.

    GL
    #19
    KJH807
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    RE: erie tribs 2008/01/16 16:16:59 (permalink)
    no PA erie trib is rated as a wild trout stream...
    there are "approved trout waters"... but these can warm to 75+ in the summer
    also, there is a lack of food to sustain the "smoltification process" that is needed for a wild (NP) population...
    #20
    Grendel
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    RE: erie tribs 2008/01/16 16:23:09 (permalink)
    It really is human nature to want to tinker with things, albeit, fix what is not broken.  This really has to be looked at and accepted as an artificial fishery that is replenished every year regardless of numbers reproduced or harvested.  Those are the facts.  To get into the:

    FFO
    ALO
    DHCARO
    etc... is really meaningless in this case.  I strongly advocate for :

    LITFA&GAFL!  If anyone can figure it out - you win a guided trip by Eddie (the character that is on the left).

    Doc
    post edited by Grendel - 2008/01/16 16:29:43

    The strength of a person isn't measured by the muscle in their arm or how tall they stand, but rather, by the amount of knowledge and area of versatility they can cover. CM ~ 1987

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    #21
    fisherofmen376
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    RE: erie tribs 2008/01/16 16:23:13 (permalink)
    "What if they stopped stocking steelhead in erie..."
     
    Oh....my.....
     
    Life would cease to exist

    "Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."
    Matthew 4:19
    #22
    Bughawk
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    RE: erie tribs 2008/01/16 17:26:18 (permalink)
    Steelhead fishing in Erie is like going to an amusement park with thrill rides.  The rides give you a sense of danger and adventure, but are safe (at least most of the time) and only mimic "real experiences" like sky diving or white water rafting or mountain climbing, etc...  Just because they are man made does not mean they are not fun and exciting and enjoyable.
     
    I am not that much of a purist to believe that catching a natural spawned fish is more exciting than catching a stocked one, or it is somehow more of a challenge to catch a "native" fish, or it is somehow a more fulfilling experience, etc...  I like the fishery and enjoy fishing for steelies and don't care how they got into the stream.
     
    I would however find it interesting to know if the fish are actually reproducing in the streams.  I am curious and think it would be neat to know more about the biology of the fish and the streams.  Whether this will change the current state of affairs when it comes to stocking, I would tend to think it won't.

    pax vobiscum +
    #23
    brown trout
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    RE: erie tribs 2008/01/16 17:49:08 (permalink)
    If stocking were to cease, the fishery as we know it now would not be there. BUT, in my opinion, there would still be quite a few fish. There would be strays from NY, OH, etc, and there definitley is SOME natural repro. going on. And, I personally believe that there is a bit more reproduction going on than what is thought. Trout are a tougher animal than most think, and mother nature has a way of taking care of things. I know of some local streams that when you look at them and take their summertime temp. reading, there should never be fish(trout). But, rainbows and wild browns thrive and thrive well here.
     
    And don't forget, there is some places on the very, very upper PA tribs where spawning and fry survival I believe could be a very much a reality. Also, 2 streams in NY that aren't too far away have well documented natural reproduction of steelhead, along with some kings and cohos.
    #24
    swinger
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    RE: erie tribs 2008/01/16 19:24:05 (permalink)
    You guys are to much
    #25
    Loopy
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    RE: erie tribs 2008/01/16 19:40:25 (permalink)
    I will say this.  If the PFBC stopped stocking steelies, the amount of licenses purchased each year would drop significantly.

    <---  The Holy Trinity
    #26
    chrisrowboat
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    RE: erie tribs 2008/01/16 20:12:19 (permalink)
    The Lake Erie Fishery as we know it would not support the fisherman. The states with good streams for natural reproduction would simply not have the fish to reproduce.
     
    #27
    Grendel
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    RE: erie tribs 2008/01/16 20:47:42 (permalink)
    One thing, I believe anyway, is that as long as the Steelhead Industry continues to make money, it will be around. 
     
    Doc

    The strength of a person isn't measured by the muscle in their arm or how tall they stand, but rather, by the amount of knowledge and area of versatility they can cover. CM ~ 1987

    Not a fan of Burgh teams. Get over it...
    #28
    FisherChic
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    RE: erie tribs 2008/01/16 20:54:16 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Grendel

    It really is human nature to want to tinker with things, albeit, fix what is not broken.  This really has to be looked at and accepted as an artificial fishery that is replenished every year regardless of numbers reproduced or harvested.  Those are the facts.  To get into the:

    FFO
    ALO
    DHCARO
    etc... is really meaningless in this case.  I strongly advocate for :

    LITFA&GAFL!  If anyone can figure it out - you win a guided trip by Eddie (the character that is on the left).

    Doc


    I know LITFA = Leave It The F*ck Alone
    & I'm guessing that GAFL might me Get A F*cking Life?


    #29
    woodnickle
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    RE: erie tribs 2008/01/16 20:57:57 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Loopy

    I will say this.  If the PFBC stopped stocking steelies, the amount of licenses purchased each year would drop significantly.




    Ok, They want your SS#, and if your a deadbeat Dad, you can not get a licence.  How does this help for more licence? I do not get how that has to do with fishing. If he is a deadbeat , get him. Let him buy his license first.

    #30
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