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wayne c
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RE: dear pa game commission... 2012/01/31 16:59:20 (permalink)
From pa deer audit

Since approximately 2000, the PGC has increased the harvest of antlerless deer. While there have been other deer management goals initiated during the time period (e.g.: antler restrictions, urban deer management, diversification of weapons and seasons), the underlying goal of reducing deer density has been the primary management policy. Beginning in 2005, permit allocations were reduced as the PGC moved to stabilize deer populations at lower population levels.

Tools used by the PGC to conduct management include estimation of harvest, sex ratio, and age distribution, and research to document mortality and movement patterns of deer. All of the tools are integrated into a management model – the Pennsylvania Sex-Age-Kill (PA SAK) model – that generates numerical estimates of population parameters. Based on estimates derived from PGC sponsored research of the PA SAK model, statewide deer populations have declined approximately 25 percent between 2002 and 2007, from 1,280,000 - 1,520,000 in 2002 to 850,000 - 1,280,000 in 2007.


And the final totals in the last paragraph dont show the reduction prior to 2002, and as you can see they stated the reductions started in 2000. Also, it couldnt have accounted for any since 2007.

So there is "proof" of a DECLINING, not INCREASING herd trend. The allocations are STILL extremely high despite this, and hunter dissent is as high as ever.

There are so many articles and information out there, including on Pgcs annual reports, books written....And out situation is known nationally. I think its hilarious that anyone who claims to "hunt" and is from Pa, could be so clueless about all this.

Here is some information from a biologist that did some investigations. His findings are supported by I believe its the largest sportsmen group in the state:

OTHER FINDINGS
post edited by wayne c - 2012/01/31 17:01:03
#31
anatikus
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RE: dear pa game commission... 2012/01/31 17:52:01 (permalink)
my next question might start a riot, i almost cant wait to ask.......lol!

i see a few people have put full faith in the 'scientific facts' concerning the game population decline.....agian, please excuse my ignorance, but how does the state determine these numbers? do they mail out an critter census to every woodland creature and hope they respond? do they trudge through the forest and issue each animal its own specific number? i dare to say no. my best guess is that they rely on harvest report returns vs. tags sold....and match those numbers vs. previous years....but again, im not certian. IF thats the case, how accurate does anyone think those numbers really are when any number of variables could produce a false outcome? thanks.

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#32
dpms
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RE: dear pa game commission... 2012/01/31 18:04:37 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: wayne c

You mean like INCREASING the deer herd instead of further decreasing it? Remember that was the NUMBER ONE reason given for hunters not buying licenses, "lack of game" according to the PGC survey done by Jagnow.

 
I have some concerns as well. I won't let that be a roadblock to supporting sound pro hunting intitiatives. If a transfer happens, I am still free to voice my concerns.
 
Very aware of the stated "reasons" for hunters quitting.  There are less squirrel hunters than ever and the population is strong. Some states are losing hunters and are struggling to control thier deer herds. The reasons stated are much more complex than it appears on the surface. For many I know that don't hunt much any longer, that reason is one of convienence.  But I know some that have scaled back specifically for that reason. Most of them hunting the traditional camps up north. Not sure why but they chose to not find much better hunting closer to home.

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wayne c
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RE: dear pa game commission... 2012/01/31 18:11:20 (permalink)
Having looked into it, and as a CRITIC of the deer management plan overall, who has pointed to alot of "flaws" regarding certain elements of the deer management plan, I have to admit, the methodology, with few minor exceptions, of the harvest estimates procedures are sound. Especially when analyzing trends of increase decrease or stabilization. They use harvest reports which they cross check with field/processor checks to determine actual reporting rates. And the main basis of the process has been peer reviewed and determined to be sound.

Its also pretty blatant how the anecdotal evidence also backs this. Hunter dissent, pretty much across the state, at all time high, with many who were used to seeing 30 or 40 deer on the first day, now seeing zero to 3. Etc... Enough dissent to prompt books to be written, court cases against pgc, forced audits, fee increase denials and more... It common knowledge and not even debatable. While it may be debatable how many deer we SHOULD have, there is no debate with the fact that the herd has been reduced. Arguing against that, is a losing battle from the word go. Now dont get me wrong, there may be localized areas that are off limits or whatever the case may be, that the herd has not declined. But overall it definately has. Which is important because we are talking about a statewide proposal here, when discussing sunday hunting.

post edited by wayne c - 2012/01/31 18:57:22
#34
anatikus
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RE: dear pa game commission... 2012/01/31 18:11:45 (permalink)
theres no proof in estimates. i dont believe a bit of that crap. and its funny that you point out how the pgc is trying to come up with ways to kill off more deer....in an already declining population.
now if they'd only let me kill 'em on sunday...........

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wayne c
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RE: dear pa game commission... 2012/01/31 18:15:14 (permalink)
theres no proof in estimates. i dont believe a bit of that crap. and its funny that you point out how the pgc is trying to come up with ways to kill off more deer....in an already declining population.


I suggest you do some studying up on the topic. Its pretty clear Id have to write you a book to get you caught up with the rest of us who discuss this stuff regularly and have followed it for years. I dont know where youve been the last decade plus, but its clear you werent deer hunting, or following Pa deer management.
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anatikus
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RE: dear pa game commission... 2012/01/31 18:26:12 (permalink)
honestly....ive hunted since the mid 80's, only western pa and only on sgl's..... with the exception of a few trips to elk county.....and ive seen a growing herd population...leading up to last year when i saw multiple groups of 15+ .....i really havnt seen a decline.....ever.

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wayne c
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RE: dear pa game commission... 2012/01/31 18:28:45 (permalink)
I have some concerns as well. I won't let that be a roadblock to supporting sound pro hunting intitiatives. If a transfer happens, I am still free to voice my concerns.


Yes. And we can also voice our concerns to the trees outside, and get about the same response when concerned with "deer" related issues. Legislators are more likely to "listen" or risk getting voted out. Pgc risks nothing by pushing "other" agendas.

Very aware of the stated "reasons" for hunters quitting. There are less squirrel hunters than ever and the population is strong.


Squirrel doesnt drive hunting in Pennsylvania, according to pgc surveys FAR from it. And DEER hunter numbers have declined at a faster rate than hunter numbers in general. Thats tells the story.

The reasons stated are much more complex than it appears on the surface.


Agreed. But its a contributing factor, and one we could EASILY control, if pgc so chose to do so. not the case with some other factors.


post edited by wayne c - 2012/01/31 18:34:42
#38
wayne c
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RE: dear pa game commission... 2012/01/31 18:31:23 (permalink)
honestly....ive hunted since the mid 80's, only western pa and only on sgl's..... with the exception of a few trips to elk county.....and ive seen a growing herd population...leading up to last year when i saw multiple groups of 15+ .....i really havnt seen a decline.....ever.


Yeah. Whatever you say. Gotta go get the old waders here in a moment. ha ha ha.
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anatikus
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RE: dear pa game commission... 2012/01/31 18:32:40 (permalink)
no, i dont follow the pa deer management....no need to. clearly id have to write you a book about how to hunt.....especially if your only seeing 1 or 2 deer a year.

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wayne c
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RE: dear pa game commission... 2012/01/31 18:36:50 (permalink)
no, i dont follow the pa deer management....no need to. clearly id have to write you a book about how to hunt.....especially if your only seeing 1 or 2 deer a year.



You cant write a book, when you clearly cant read or comprehend....

Although I am seeing FAR less than i used to because of the herd reductions, which is only to be expected, just as the huge majority of others are.... nowhere in any of these posts did i say how many deer "I" see in a year, a week, a month or within any other time frame! lmao.

Btw, I have posted my archery killed bucks here regularly since being a member, including this years. But thanks for your concerns. lmao. Now why dont we just agree to disagree on sunday hunting, before you say something foolish and stick your foot in your mouth up to the knee yet again as you have with the exploding deer herd, needing sundays for coyotes, and my hunting prowess?

You're funnier than a barrel of monkeys. ...N'at. ......
post edited by wayne c - 2012/01/31 18:50:27
#41
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RE: dear pa game commission... 2012/01/31 19:44:20 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: wayne c

You may disagree with the PGC's management strategies, but remember that they are the people who will always support and promote hunting.


Thats debatable as to whether pro-hunting legislators or environmentalist oriented managers have hunters best interests in mind more. Thats VERY debatable, and largely unknown. I dont think either are "anti-hunting" by a long shot. I also dont care who makes SOME of the decisions as long as they are the RIGHT decisions. And Pgc is nothing more than a political puppet. Anyone thinking they are in any way "independant" when it comes to setting their deer management goals, hasnt a clue about deer management, in particular in Pa.



The "unknown" is precisely my point with the politicians.  The legiscritters serve terms and while they all strive to be career politicians, their constituents often say otherwise.  The same hunter friendly politicians in office now may not be there after the next term.  It is impossible to predict if their replacements will share the same beliefs.  Additionally, even if we do have a few hunting advocates in office it certainly does not represent a majority and you will have many others with no interest in hunting whatsoever getting a say in the matter.  One again, this is not something I can support. 

However, despite your disagreement with the PGC's current policies, they will always be out there supporting and promoting hunting. You may not like the seasons, game, or bag limits, but at least the people making the decisions will continue to provde opportunities to hunt.
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anatikus
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RE: dear pa game commission... 2012/01/31 20:19:59 (permalink)
glad i heard about JAGNOW.......i think i met a JAGNOW. LOL! as far as i can see, the commish is looking to decrease the herd....more doe tags, diversification of wepons and seasons...bla bla bla... does anyone think they do it because theres too few deer? it seems like they do it, oh, i dont know....maybe because theres TOO MANY???

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wayne c
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RE: dear pa game commission... 2012/01/31 20:26:57 (permalink)
..i think i met a JAGNOW. LOL!


Apparently you see your reflection in the pc screen. Considering you and I have never "met". Course thats just more of your fine logic and rationale being clouded by uncontrollable emotion. lmao

as far as i can see, the commish is looking to decrease the herd....more doe tags, diversification of wepons and seasons...bla bla bla... does anyone think they do it because theres too few deer? it seems like they do it, oh, i dont know....maybe because theres TOO MANY??]


Um, actually PGC's stated goal for the huge majority of the state now, excluding the few urban special regs areas is STABILIZATION now that reduction has been accomplished. Getting tiresome teaching you something you have no clue about on every single post. Gonna hafta start charging you for remedial tutoring.

The problem is, there is alot of evidence saying that isnt whats being adhered to. And there is alot of evidence of special interest catering ongoing, and you'd have a clue what I was talking about if you read the link I posted earlier. And is why some dont support sunday hunting.

I warned ya about sticking that other foot in your mouth on every post, then in the very next post, ya went and did it again!
post edited by wayne c - 2012/01/31 20:46:43
#44
wayne c
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RE: dear pa game commission... 2012/01/31 20:33:20 (permalink)
The "unknown" is precisely my point with the politicians. The legiscritters serve terms and while they all strive to be career politicians, their constituents often say otherwise. The same hunter friendly politicians in office now may not be there after the next term. It is impossible to predict if their replacements will share the same beliefs. Additionally, even if we do have a few hunting advocates in office it certainly does not represent a majority and you will have many others with no interest in hunting whatsoever getting a say in the matter. One again, this is not something I can support.


I understand your position as that goes, and respect it. My opinion differs slightly, not because of my trust for legislators but due to my distrust of pgc which imho theyve earned. I am also supporting only certain things being "dictated" by legislators as needed and only as last resort. Not the entire management process itself, and hopefully only temporarily. The things legislators have a hand in are within their prescribed duties, and many other "interests" attempt to use the legislative route to their advantages whenever possible. I dont see good reason to not fight fire with fire.

However, despite your disagreement with the PGC's current policies, they will always be out there supporting and promoting hunting.


Im not sure thats the case at all. I believe they have little choice but to support huntings end result. Just as most rational folks do. Although as many of us see it, the end result they seek goes above and beyond. But as for looking out for our "best interests', I dont believe thats the case. But agree or disagree, im sure after all this time, due to repetition I dont need to restate my reasonings to you, so wont bother doing so again now. I'll just agree to disagree.

You may not like the seasons, game, or bag limits, but at least the people making the decisions will continue to provde opportunities to hunt.


And Im not content with that. They are gonna have to do better than just not being "anti" to gain alot more folks support.
post edited by wayne c - 2012/01/31 20:57:47
#45
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RE: dear pa game commission... 2012/01/31 21:05:25 (permalink)
The only issue with restricting Sunday hunting to only State Game Lands and preserves is quite simple, it raises the valid question -- Why can I hunt there on Sunday, but not on my own land that I bought, paid for, and pay taxes on?


According to the December issue of "The Pennsylvania Outdoor News," 150 total resolutions were offered, but those two stood out.



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anatikus
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RE: dear pa game commission... 2012/01/31 21:33:07 (permalink)
youve schooled me in nothing more than your opinion and i havnt had a foot in mouth moment that i can think of..(other than yotes on sunday which i recanted).....but im sure that youll twist something else i typed to make yourself feel smarter......like i said, i dont care what YOU think, or if you choose to take the b.s. game population reports as gospel. accually i enjoyed seeing you all fired up over my opinions....it just swows what kind of guy you are. its really kinda pathetic how far youve gone to try and proove my opinions wrong.

thanks to everyone else though, your info has been enlightening......and keep the p.m's coming! some of you are just too funny!
AND KEEP PUSHING FOR SUNDAY HUNTS....

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wayne c
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RE: dear pa game commission... 2012/01/31 21:37:54 (permalink)
Lmao. The posts speak for themselves. Such an emotional lil' feller. ha ha.

how far youve gone to try and proove my opinions wrong.



I didnt "go far" at all. I simply stated what most already know to be common knowledge. And it was no harder than telling a child 2 + 2 = 4 on my behalf. The facts are the facts. You dont have to like them.
post edited by wayne c - 2012/01/31 21:50:01
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fisher98
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RE: dear pa game commission... 2012/01/31 22:22:16 (permalink)
i support sunday hunting and antikius what planet you from duud?
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anatikus
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RE: dear pa game commission... 2012/01/31 23:09:57 (permalink)
common knowledge? are you sayn most people read that population crap?.....seriously? public knowledge sure but common not so much.....and emotional....HAHAHAHAAAA! i couldnt care less about a guy that has to read population reports to find deer. and good job lil fella! 2 + 2 does = 4!!!!! congrats! you found something that IS a scientific fact!!!!! but somehow im sure youll find a way to try and proove your 4 is more correct than anyone elses 4 AND stay up all night tryn to have the last word about it.....but AGAIN.......thats my opinion.

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wayne c
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RE: dear pa game commission... 2012/01/31 23:13:15 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: fisher98

i support sunday hunting and antikius what planet you from duud?



Ha ha ha! .......
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wayne c
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RE: dear pa game commission... 2012/01/31 23:16:36 (permalink)
common knowledge? are you sayn most people read that population crap?.....seriously? public knowledge sure but common not so much.....and emotional....HAHAHAHAAAA! i couldnt care less about a guy that has to read population reports to find deer. and good job lil fella! 2 + 2 does = 4!!!!! congrats! you found something that IS a scientific fact!!!!! but somehow im sure youll find a way to try and proove your 4 is more correct than anyone elses 4 AND stay up all night tryn to have the last word about it.....but AGAIN.......thats my opinion.


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wayne c
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RE: dear pa game commission... 2012/01/31 23:34:12 (permalink)
common knowledge? are you sayn most people read that population crap?.....



They dont have to read to know the population has declined. lmao. Its pretty clear even without reading to most sane rational folks. lmao. But yeah, most who are involved in this conversation know deer arent like the plague currently, coyotes are legal on sunday and they know the goal isnt supposed to be reduction right now. Youre just the odd man out on this. I tried pointing this things out, but you refused to accept and just keep getting mad.


i couldnt care less about a guy that has to read population reports to find deer.


And you can back that claim by pointing to where I or anyone else said that? Didnt think so. Chalk it up as more falsehood. .

and good job lil fella!


Nice changeup from my "lil feller" in the very last post to you. Almost made it sound like an original thought. lmao.

2 + 2 does = 4!!!!! congrats! you found something that IS a scientific fact!!!!! but somehow im sure youll find a way to try and proove your 4 is more correct than anyone elses 4


But when I said all the things I said, you werent agreeing. Therefore for you, 2 + 2 didnt equal 4. According to you,the deer are exploding, coyotes werent legal on sunday, I couldnt kill a deer because I only saw 1 or 2 per year, the goals for the state are reduction.... That was all your stuff, so by comparison that makes 2 + 2 add up to 124 for you. lmao. Complete falsehood chief.

post edited by wayne c - 2012/02/01 00:39:47
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anatikus
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RE: dear pa game commission... 2012/01/31 23:37:22 (permalink)

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anatikus
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RE: dear pa game commission... 2012/02/01 00:26:44 (permalink)
never said coyote wasnt legal on sunday, i just threw it in with the species ive seen more and more of over the years ...and further tried to explain much of what i said was opinionated. not my fault u cant accept it. you posted the clip about managed reduction, great....u make it sound like deer are at an all time low in numbers......lol.....great....im fairly sure you also whined about hunters only seeing 1 or 2 deer on opening day....lmao! whats your issue? its like everyone that refuses share your opinions are wrong.....lol! i said ive seen more and more deer over the years and you needed chest waders? calling me a liar? HAHAHAAAA!!!!! ill say the quality of doe has gone down but not the numbers and now with antler restrictions the buck numbers are up too....ive seen it and dont care if you believe it or not. i dont trust the 'estimated numbers' ...if you do great....the lil feller line...lol..i wasnt going for original, i just tried to sound as pathetic as you...guess i failed....lol
and no matter how you add it up....... 2+2=4 genius.

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wayne c
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RE: dear pa game commission... 2012/02/01 00:51:27 (permalink)
lmao!

never said coyote wasnt legal on sunday,


You used it as an example TWICE of why we "need" sunday hunting. lmao. attempt to decieve now because of embarrassment?

im fairly sure you also whined about hunters only seeing 1 or 2 deer on opening day....lmao!


Lie number two. thats not what was called into question by me. You tried to later say I did per year. Lets see if we can stimulate your poor memory:

no, i dont follow the pa deer management....no need to. clearly id have to write you a book about how to hunt.....especially if your only seeing 1 or 2 deer a year.


Ha ha ha.


whats your issue?


Other than not caring for lies?

its like everyone that refuses share your opinions are wrong.....lol!


No. Not everyone. Just you. If ever anyone else is wrong here though, if it will make you feel better, I'll be sure and let them know in a polite manner just as I did with you...until they start trying to make an azz of themself. Course when someone rational is shown they are mistaken, they usually dont throw a tantrum afterwards. lmao.

Folks who tell complete mistruths,whether its due to simply not having a clue, or intentionally are wrong, its not a difference of opinion and the only ones who would state such with THESE instances could only be someone that doesnt know the difference at all. lol. There are several other folks here that support sunday hunting. And none of them are "wrong" because of it. The disagreeing I do with not supporting sunday hunting vs. their support is a difference of opinion. Your outrageous additional nonsense = proven "wrong" and to a laughable extreme.. lol.

and no matter how you add it up....... 2+2=4 genius


Not when that statement was being used as nothing more than a parellell of your other extremely funny blatantly false statements here. Course you probably dont understand what that means either.


Id be happy to let you have the last word, and let us discuss the topic as was meant to be before you added the goofiness to it, but I won't let ridiculous lies stand. Sorry friend.

Thought I heard a flock of birds wings flapping. But it was just the sound of every last shred of your credibility flying out the door. lol.... N'at.

post edited by wayne c - 2012/02/01 01:34:59
#56
wayne c
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RE: dear pa game commission... 2012/02/01 01:07:29 (permalink)
FISHER, thanks for the Pm. I agree completely. ha ha ha.
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anatikus
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RE: dear pa game commission... 2012/02/01 11:22:46 (permalink)
its been tied up in buricratic b.s. for years....im just jacked that the PGC dosnt make more of an arguement to push for it. lets face certian truths, it would create jobs, stimulate some local business, and maybe cut the out of control deer, turkey and coyote population a little. these are just to name a few...besides, i wouldnt mind paying the total bill for a liscence including all tags if i could get more out of it....hell, make a $20 sunday stamp!...id be fine with that too...just make it happen!

_____________________________

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ummmmm....heres the post that sent you into a tailspin....ive already admitted that i shoulda said my opinion vs.face certian truths, even that wasnt enough for you and EVERYTHING ELSE I SAID WAS OPINIONATED TOO....other than things i said ive personally seen. youve gone off about how im not smart and that im a liar and attacked me for my opinions.....its laughable!
well, keep on thinking that your the only voice of truth against others personal opinions because it really shows what kind of guy you are

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wayne c
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RE: dear pa game commission... 2012/02/01 11:44:37 (permalink)
ummmmm....heres the post that sent you into a tailspin


Nope. Sorry sir, youre the one who emotionally impoloded, and it was because of alot more than ONE of your posts being pointed to as "bull cucky", and I dont need you to point out when or why, because I quoted you each and every time. lol. As anyone can see I just pointed out you were wrong, and you flipped your wig over and over because you didnt like it being pointed out,

And when I pointed to a ridiculous inaccuracy, I quoted the mistruths, so they are there for all to see. Not as if I made "vague" accusations. lol

Yawn. The posts speak for themselves chieftain.

On a humorous note, no matter what time I check in here often just for a minute or 3, be it at noon during a break from work, or be it 1 a.m. There is your name sitting atop this thread waiting for the next reply, never leaving. Kinda sad chieftain. lol. Figured Id give you some attention this fine lunchtime, maybe brighten your day. N'at.

post edited by wayne c - 2012/02/01 11:52:13
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anatikus
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RE: dear pa game commission... 2012/02/01 12:36:22 (permalink)
yup, you just cant help yourself........thanks for prooving my point. and if you really need to know.......... i's gots wonna dem daer fancy space phones so checking in on this thread i started is really easy......and yes......very amusing.

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