PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED

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Esox_Hunter
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED 2011/03/09 12:18:48 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: deerfly


ORIGINAL: Esox_Hunter

A lot better than it was.  Thanks for asking.

How did your WMU do?



Thanks for proving once again that you have no idea what the B/D ratio is in 2B. Just because hunters didn't harvest as many doe as in 2009 ,doesn't mean the doe weren't there to be harvested. Therefore, based on the harvest data , the B/D ratio may be worse than than in was in 2009,if more doe survived the 2010 season.

 
Really?  That is all you got is to question that my sightings reflected a much better B:D ratio than they have in the past?  B:D ratio in all of 2B is meaningless until there is a way to differential the urban areas from the more rural ones.  I know you are still sour grapes about me making you look foolish in that other thread, but keep grasping.
 
Do you understand this very basic concept?
 
Less deer harvested + same season length(with much better weather than previous year) + same tag allocation = less doe available for harvest 
 
 
 
Just for you, let us take a look at 5C:
 
WMU 5C: 9,400 (7,600) antlered, 24,000 (23,200) antlerless
 
Anyone up for a road trip? One would imagine based on the recent harvest data for this WMU that this area is by far one of the best producers of bucks!

#31
deerfly
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED 2011/03/09 12:38:22 (permalink)

Less deer harvested + same season length(with much better weather than previous year) + same tag allocation = less doe available for harvest 


The antlerless harvest in 2B dropped by 35% from 2009 to 2009. Do you really believe there were 35% fewer antlerless deer in 2B last year? Maybe you should let the PGC know that they don't know what they are talking about when they claim the herd in 2B is still increasing.
#32
wayne c
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED 2011/03/09 12:46:39 (permalink)
Wayne writes ===

quote:

Just because hunters didn't harvest as many doe as in 2009 ,doesn't mean the doe weren't there to be harvested

Would that not mean then when he is complaining using the harvest figures to show how the deer population in his area is declining he is saying the same thing???


Just because hunters did not shoot them does not mean they are not there ??????


not at all doc. If you could read, you shouldve seen i was speaking of the BUCK harvest that has steadily declined. That means not just one year as well. Also considering the variables involves such as perfect weather compared to last years, still having ridiculous 55.000 allocations causing the steady decline, etc. etc. And the fact the harvest still continues to drop shows the decline in the herd. No reason to believe it doesnt represent it very accurately.


FYI

Here are some of our past harvests according to the audit for the area that is 2a:

2000----13700
2001----11600
2002-----9900
2003-----7500
2004------7800
2005------8500
2006------8100
2007------6600
2008-------6700
2009-------6800
2010-------5800





post edited by wayne c - 2011/03/09 12:48:05
#33
Esox_Hunter
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED 2011/03/09 12:49:18 (permalink)
In my opinion, that figure does sound very low.  Which was the reason for my holy crap comment above. 
 
There is really no doubt that in the areas I hunt, doe numbers this year were as low as I have ever seen them.  A number of friends also hunting the area will attest to that.  With that in mind I am not surprised that the doe harvest decreased significantly, but am surprised at 35%.  We noticed that between trail cams and spotting that many does only dropped 1 fawn or even had none in our area, likely due to the 3+' of snow on the ground Feb-Mar. 
 
It really doesn't change my assesment on the areas I hunt.  There are way less deer and the buck:doe ratio is far better than it was 10 years ago.  I really don't need harvest data to come to those two conclusions. 
#34
dpms
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED 2011/03/09 12:55:28 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: wayne c
 And the fact the harvest still continues to drop shows the decline in the herd. No reason to believe it doesnt represent it very accurately.


 
Throw in a weakened AR for 2A this fall and possibly a continuation of 55,000 tags and we are gonna see things change for sure. 

My rifle is a black rifle
#35
SilverKype
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED 2011/03/09 13:31:51 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: DarDys

ORIGINAL: SilverKype


ORIGINAL: DarDys

ORIGINAL: SilverKype

Centre of the state 4D, the weather was nice the first day.  About 35-50 degrees, some clouds, consistent wind.  2nd and 3rd day were miserable rain/high winds then snow/high winds.   I think I went to Erie the first Saturday fishin but I believe it was nice.   The last day was also nice with snow on the ground.  Other than the 2nd and 3rd day, it was pretty nice the whole rifle season.


Since I don't hunt it, how was the weather during archery season?  Were there many washouts during high hunting number days, like Saturdays? 

With a higher and higher percentage of the overall buck kill coming in archery season (nothing wrong with that, you go guys), the whole "it was the weather" that caused this or that can no longer simply be contained to rifle season.  If I recall, the numbers being thrown around here, approximalet 1/3 of the buck harvest was during archery season.


No, Saturdays were good. More importantly, this year's winds were fantanstic. Wet usually means east southeast winds. If anyone remembers 2009, it rained like five saturdays, mostly east winds the whole season. We like west/northwest.

The 1/3 of the population is, well, now I'll say partaking in archery season, so a 1/3 of the kill is about right.


That's what I thought.  I can think of only one day pheasan thunting this fall that i got wet.  I remembered the year before having pretty lousy weather.

So with a third of the bucks being harvested in archery season, do you think that somewhat deminishes the whole "the weather on this day or that day in gun season," with the exception of the opener and particularly the weekdays, has little effect on the total buck harvest?

What I mean is statistically, there are 12 days of rifle season for the most part across the state with three "popular" days -- opening day and the two Saturdays, so the chances of bad weather is more likely, but when archery is added in, there are about 30 days, with six popular days -- the Saturdays, for that season so the chances for bad weather on those days goes down.


For deer harvest numbers, you can't ask for more than a good first day, and two saturdays. It usually doesn't happen but it did this year..

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#36
wayne c
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED 2011/03/09 13:49:40 (permalink)
Essox, i know what you mean about the b/d ratio. Ive been seeing the same in observations as well as trail cam pics... On the couple of properties we hunt most often, Ive actually been seeing more buck than doe for a couple or few years or so now and that is absolutely no exaggeration. While i'll admit it is nice that when you see a deer, it has such a good chance of being a buck, im more concerned at what it is gonna do to recruitment rates into the near future.

Dpms, yeah, that bothers me too. Average quality is gonna no doubt take a hit. Not only will reducing the ar, but the split season is also gonna increase pressure on the buck.

Another thing that im not liking is the current direction, although not long ago 5800 buck harvest by comparison to other past years is an absolute joke, it has now become reality and will be a new "baseline". And if permitted to continue will become "the norm". It will already now be averaged into the figures which will permit even lower buck harvests to be deemed statistically acceptable in the future.

As for the statewide level; Previously a 122k buck harvest wouldve been considered ridiculous. This year, Pgc has it stated as being "above average" since it actually is compared to the last few years!

Our bar both in our unit and statewide has continuously being lowered, and this is a long term plan. I see the recent "changes" by cutting allocations in some units etc.as a good thing, but where imho due largely to the huge political pressures being applied and most likely the changes will be temporary.
post edited by wayne c - 2011/03/09 14:06:34
#37
deerfly
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED 2011/03/09 16:19:22 (permalink)
It really doesn't change my assesment on the areas I hunt.  There are way less deer and the buck:doe ratio is far better than it was 10 years ago.  I really don't need harvest data to come to those two conclusions. 

So, in your opinion,what was the B/D ratio ten years ago and what do you think it was in 2010. Now ,remember that in 2001 the statewide B/D ratio was 1:2.1and there would be no reason why it should vary much across the state unless there was no doe hunting at all in a given area.
#38
Ironhed
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED 2011/03/09 19:00:18 (permalink)
As Silver said, for the most part 2009 archery and gun season sucked weatherwise. I don't set my stands for east winds and they seemed to
be east forever.


+1
After '09's season, we set stands for the east winds.  Just in case it happened again.
We had a couple light east winds this past archery season but it wasn't much to worry about.

Ironhed

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SonofZ3
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED 2011/03/09 21:08:39 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: deerfly

It really doesn't change my assesment on the areas I hunt.  There are way less deer and the buck:doe ratio is far better than it was 10 years ago.  I really don't need harvest data to come to those two conclusions. 

So, in your opinion,what was the B/D ratio ten years ago and what do you think it was in 2010. Now ,remember that in 2001 the statewide B/D ratio was 1:2.1and there would be no reason why it should vary much across the state unless there was no doe hunting at all in a given area.


Where do you find the B/D ratio of 1:2.1 from 2001?

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deerfly
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED 2011/03/09 21:21:04 (permalink)
I have an email from Bret Wallingford that provides the estimated composition of the herd in 2001.
#41
Dr. Trout
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED 2011/03/09 21:25:49 (permalink)


It's amazing to me how deerfly over and over again says the PGC has no idea how many deer there are or no clue on how to manage our deer....

---- BUT ---


is so quick to point out he TOTALLY believes the B/D ratio using figures the PGC puts in an E-mail ... AMAZING....

If (according to him) they have no idea how many deer there are -- how would they know what the ratio was ????????

post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/03/09 21:27:14

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deerfly
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED 2011/03/09 21:33:08 (permalink)
In 2001 the PGC wasn't denying that they knew how many deer we had. They had no problem stating we had 1M OWD and 1.5 M PS deer.

Now here is a question for you. Alt said we had a skewed B/D ratio and the PGC repeated that message in the hunting Digest for many years. Now , can you provide one quote where they PGC specified what the B/D was for any year from 2000 to 2010.?
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SonofZ3
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED 2011/03/09 21:35:19 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: deerfly

I have an email from Bret Wallingford that provides the estimated composition of the herd in 2001.


That just surprises me. I started deer hunting in 1999 (I'm a young guy), and my first couple years deer hunting I saw a single buck. LOTS of doe though. My 2 days of hunting in 2002 I saw 40 doe and 0 buck. I thought a B/D ration of 1:20 seemed more likely for that period of time.

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#44
deerfly
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED 2011/03/09 21:38:01 (permalink)
You are talking about the antlered /antlerless ratio, not the adult breeding B/D ratio.
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SonofZ3
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED 2011/03/09 21:46:49 (permalink)
Ok, thanks for the clarification.

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Dr. Trout
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED 2011/03/09 21:50:58 (permalink)
For what it is worth.. and to show I am not 100% in the "pocket" of the PGC...

I never paid much attention to the B/D ratio simply because as just mentioned I have NEVER come close to see 2 adult females to 1 adult male around here... NEVER.....

and know NO ONE who has....

so the B/D is one "figure" the PGC puts out there that I rarely comment on because I have no faith that that is the case for this area...





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Ironhed
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED 2011/03/09 21:53:11 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: deerfly

You are talking about the antlered /antlerless ratio, not the adult breeding B/D ratio.

 
What are you calling "adult", deerfly?
 
Ironhed

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#48
BloodyHand
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED 2011/03/09 21:59:32 (permalink)
Where I archery hunt in 1B, and I put alot of time in my tree stands, the anterless/antlered ratio was 1:1. But overall herd is down significantly in the last 5 years. Where I rifle in 1B the ratio is seems to be not changing much, but the herd numbers are down there also.
#49
Esox_Hunter
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED 2011/03/09 22:18:54 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: deerfly

It really doesn't change my assesment on the areas I hunt.  There are way less deer and the buck:doe ratio is far better than it was 10 years ago.  I really don't need harvest data to come to those two conclusions. 

So, in your opinion,what was the B/D ratio ten years ago and what do you think it was in 2010. Now ,remember that in 2001 the statewide B/D ratio was 1:2.1and there would be no reason why it should vary much across the state unless there was no doe hunting at all in a given area.


In my opinion based on my hunting experiences it was certainly not 1:2.1.  If I had to venture a guess it closer to 1:4 in the areas that are now called 2B.  Also, my experiences have led me to believe the increase in pressure in 2B has been staggering since 2000.  10 years ago it was a surprise to run into more than a guy or two all season on any of the properties I hunted (mainly open to all hunters with permission.)  Now I am lucky if I can find a place to park at these locations on a weekday during archery.  

If I had to throw out numbers on what I saw when I hunted what is now 2F and 2D, I would say it was more like 1:5.  Very common in those parts to see 20 antlerless with a buck with the group if you were lucky.  I don't hunt those areas near as much, but there has been a major B:D improvement in the areas I still hunt in 2D, but far less deer overall though. 
#50
DarDys
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED 2011/03/10 07:28:13 (permalink)
If you are seeing 1:5 to 1:2, rest assured the ratio is near 1:1.  You just aren't seeing the bucks.  That is no slam on you (whoever, you is).  It is just the way it is.
 
I have been a "woods" hunter all my hunting career (about 40 years).  This year I was invited to hunt on a private property that serves as an unland game preserve (no, Doc, not a deer preserve).  My task was to remove a few does.  The owner said I could shoot a buck if it were "huge."  But he said that he doubted that I would see a buck at all.  I asked why, expecting a real out of whack B:D ratio and he said that he had not seen an antlered deer since September.  I found that odd since he is on the ground there ever single day and would be bound to run into one sooner or later.  there is another preserve next door, an area used for dog training/field trials on another side, and Mennonites farm the other borders.  The reports are the same from them.
 
He told me that they go to an area known as "Never-Never Land" -- a 35 acre uncurt block of head-high switch grass that sits in the middle of the property (put there to give the birds, not the deer, an undisturbed area) -- typically in late August.  They only come out under the cover of night from September until the end of the rut and then they spend the next month or two without coming out at all.  They don't need to.  There is cover, water, and food.  It provides the type of "sanctuary area" called for in private deer management plans.
 
I would have never thought it.  If I were to base what I thought the B:D ratio was on what I saw, I would estimate that the B:D ratio is 0:70 --LOL.  He assures me that if I were out there in June, July, or early August, I would see that it is about 1:6 antlered/antlerless, so probably closer to 1:3 B:D.
 
So if you are seeing 1:20 or 1:4, the actual is a whole lot less.  There is a sanctuary area somewhere.
 
 

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
#51
SilverKype
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED 2011/03/10 08:10:15 (permalink)
Viewing unpressured deer in July/August is the time to get a handle on buck:doe ratios. Hitting a field with good food source with a spotlight after dark for a few weeks usually tells the tale. Once you start seeing the same deer you're starting to get a handle on whats happening. I don't feel observation during hunting season is a good predictor. Once the antlers harden, bucks start moving more. Once they get pressure, they move to a different place and move less. Once November comes you'd swear you have more buck than doe.

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#52
DarDys
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED 2011/03/10 08:39:01 (permalink)
Agreed, hunting seaosn observations are pretty useless.
 
Although, these deer are not pressured whatsoever at any time -- at least not those with in about a 1,500 -2,000 acre area.  They are simply do "deer things" in a very natural way.

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Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
#53
Ironhed
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED 2011/03/10 10:06:06 (permalink)
Agreed, hunting seaosn observations are pretty useless.


That's a lame claim.  Trail cams don't lie.

If it is soley based on a single person's observations, then yes.

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#54
Esox_Hunter
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED 2011/03/10 12:29:02 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: DarDys

If you are seeing 1:5 to 1:2, rest assured the ratio is near 1:1.  You just aren't seeing the bucks.  That is no slam on you (whoever, you is).  It is just the way it is.
 

 
That is pure crap unless you are talking about the antlerless to antlered ratio, which is not the same as a buck:doe ratio. 
 
I guess I should have been clearer when I presented my observations and not just lumped them into "hunting experiences".  I should have mentioned the countless hours I spend glassing fields all through the summer, spotlighting, hunting from Oct-Jan, and now trailcams.  
 
Rest assured, 10 years ago I never hunted any areas where the ratio was close to 1:1....
 
 
#55
SilverKype
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED 2011/03/10 12:44:44 (permalink)
I think trail cams can lie about ratios. Bucks tend to use terrain as they move and doe typically use trails. If you set up on a trail and get a bunch of doe, who is to say bucks aren't downwind of the trail scent checking it ? What if I put a cam on a scrape and end up with more buck pics than doe ? Doesn't mean that's true. I've set up 4-5 cams along the same trail 50 yards apart and the doe are in all pics, yet bucks are only on 1 or 2.

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Dr. Trout
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED 2011/03/10 14:25:28 (permalink)
Dars..

This is not a slam.. but I find it interesting..

you comment that that guy should know what he is talking about because he is there 24/7... then go and and say..

He assures me that if I were out there in June, July, or early August, I would see that it is about 1:6 antlered/antlerless, so probably closer to 1:3 B:D.



the part I find interestibng is after saying he should know .. who is adding the "so probably 1:3 B:D."

Does he feel it's 1:6 or does he feel it's 1:3 ????? I'm sure in those months he is not counting fawns as antlerless...


post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/03/10 14:28:18

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DarDys
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED 2011/03/10 14:32:38 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout

Dars..

This is not a slam.. but I find it interesting..

you comment that that guy should know what he is talking about because he is there 24/7... then go and and say..

He assures me that if I were out there in June, July, or early August, I would see that it is about 1:6 antlered/antlerless, so probably closer to 1:3 B:D.



the part I find interestibng is after saying he should know .. who is adding the "so probably 1:3 B:D."

Does he feel it's 1:6 or does he feel it's 1:3 ?????




 
Not taking it as a slam.
 
Read what I wrote ANTLERED/ANTLERLESS is about 1:6, so probably closer to 1:3 B:D.  B:D = BUCK to DOE.  Yearling BUCKS do not have ANTLERS.  Some of the ANLTERLESS in the ANLTERED/ANLTERLESS are therefore BUCKS.  Because of this the ratio of ANTLERED/ANTLERLESS is higher and gives a false impression of BUCK/DOE.

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Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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SilverKype
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED 2011/03/10 15:05:37 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: DarDys

ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout

Dars..

This is not a slam.. but I find it interesting..

you comment that that guy should know what he is talking about because he is there 24/7... then go and and say..

He assures me that if I were out there in June, July, or early August, I would see that it is about 1:6 antlered/antlerless, so probably closer to 1:3 B:D.



the part I find interestibng is after saying he should know .. who is adding the "so probably 1:3 B:D."

Does he feel it's 1:6 or does he feel it's 1:3 ?????





Not taking it as a slam.

Read what I wrote ANTLERED/ANTLERLESS is about 1:6, so probably closer to 1:3 B:D.  B:D = BUCK to DOE.  Yearling BUCKS do not have ANTLERS.  Some of the ANLTERLESS in the ANLTERED/ANLTERLESS are therefore BUCKS.  Because of this the ratio of ANTLERED/ANTLERLESS is higher and gives a false impression of BUCK/DOE.


You're getting buttons confused with yearlings. Buttons are fawns, 1.5 yo are yearlings.

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#59
DarDys
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED 2011/03/10 15:48:12 (permalink)
You are correct.  Let me see if I can clarify.
 
Antlered deer have visible antlers.  Bucks, may not, such as is the case of buck fawns. 
 
So the antlered/antlerless ratio is higher than the buck/doe ratio.
 
One deals with visble antlers and the other deals with the sex of the animal.

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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