The game comission

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spoonchucker
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RE: The game comission 2009/09/18 16:05:11 (permalink)
I would suspect, that overall citations will go down. As there will be cut in hours ( particularlly overtime hours ), and WCO/DWCO presence.
 
It has already been intimated, that "extra patrols" in Erie for Steelhead season, will be greatly reduced, or eliminated.

Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

Step Up, or Step Aside


The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody.

GL
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Dr. Trout
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RE: The game comission 2009/09/18 16:46:30 (permalink)
Had to sneak on while at work and admit I was wrong....
 
as mentioned ...after talking to the local WCO an hour ago.... it is illegal to carry ANY weapon in a car or truck that is capable of killing a deer while spotlighting... PERIOD.... including a crossbow or compound.... 
the exception is the handgun with a permit to carry a concealed weapon.
 
also not illegal to lean gun against a tree  -- as he said -- not safe but not illegal..
 
 
see it is NOT always my way ... nor am I always right.. but will post when I am proven wrong--
 
 as this case turned out to be.
#32
Pork
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RE: The game comission 2009/09/18 16:50:19 (permalink)
I applaud you Dr.
...but I thought you were retired??
Have yerself a good weekend.
post edited by Pork - 2009/09/18 16:51:08

"If you ever get hit with a bucket of fish, be sure to close your eyes." ><)))*>
#33
SPIKER
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RE: The game comission 2009/09/18 18:21:55 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout

Had to sneak on while at work and admit I was wrong....

as mentioned ...after talking to the local WCO an hour ago.... it is illegal to carry ANY weapon in a car or truck that is capable of killing a deer while spotlighting... PERIOD.... including a crossbow or compound.... 
the exception is the handgun with a permit to carry a concealed weapon.

also not illegal to lean gun against a tree  -- as he said -- not safe but not illegal..


see it is NOT always my way ... nor am I always right.. but will post when I am proven wrong--

as this case turned out to be.


Illegal in PA,but in NY ya can spotlight with gun in trunk.Just gotta be faster to jump out of the car to get there instead of grabbing it from the back seat....
post edited by SPIKER - 2009/09/18 18:23:56
#34
Dr. Trout
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RE: The game comission 2009/09/18 20:35:02 (permalink)
Roger also told me he would have to look at the whole picture before issuing a citation to someone who had it packed away in a case in the back of the truck among other stuff for camp...  i.e. not somewhere where it could be grabbed and loaded and maybe used quickly...
 
I definitely told him I was not aware of or had forgotten about the ANY weapon thing when spotlighting and would have to go on-line and correct my statement made here earlier...  he laughed and said that I usually am not wrong on PGC stuff that I post on the internet .. but no one is perfect either !!!!
 
as for walking along the road with a weapon after hours.. same thing.. it could be loaded quickly and used.. so is the person actually still hunting or not ???
 
up to the WCO to decide...
 
Here's one law that I do not understand .....  AT ALL...
 
if new items are added to the sport of hunting to make it easier to harvest deer.. why is it illegal to use my radio and say..
 
""Hey Bings.. there's a buck headed your way""   
 
 
silly rule IMHO.......  and does anyone really use their own names on the radios anyhow ??????
 
I understand some of the electronic rules but not this one....
#35
Dr. Trout
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RE: The game comission 2009/09/18 20:37:41 (permalink)
Pork..
 
I work week-ends .. Fri /Sat /Sun = 25 hours,  as a clerk in a Mom and Pops type general store ..
 
hardly what I call work
 
and gives me a chance to talk and listen to all the campers/hunters/anglers and locals  in the area
#36
SmMouthSeeker
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RE: The game comission 2009/09/18 21:33:14 (permalink)
Doc, I hear ya.

To say the game comm. is giving out citations for the smallest infractions is the same as saying, the local law enforcement officers gives out speeding tickets to meet their monthly quota. It's not true.

You guys all know there are reasons behind the rules. In case you don't know,let me spell it out for you S-A-F-E-T-Y. Not just for you or the guy next to you, but for the officer as well. They are trained to think outside the box. When the officer first approaches you, they are on the offence, not the defence. They have to be ready for anything. I have been stopped by the wco's and the first thing they have me do is unload my gun or set it down flat on the ground, not against a tree or my car. The wco's are out there alone and they have a tough job.

I've only been cited once by a wco and it's only because I turned myself in for shooting an illegal waterfowl. I used to hunt on game comm. land and I saw them quite frequently. Checking licenses became a normal thing. You're not getting the full story from those who had run ins with the wco's. They tell you what they want you to know. They can only cite you if there is a reason for it. If you think you are in the right, then go for it, fight it. But to give out citations for the smallest things-No Way.
#37
McD50
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RE: The game comission 2009/09/18 21:51:10 (permalink)
I had one run in with the game commission officer while waterfoul hunting on game lands, i was 17, still somewhat new to hunting, i had a minor violation, he took all my information and everything and about a week later he actually came to my house and i sat down with him for about an hour and we just talked and he was very helpful and just went through the book with me and tried to inform me of all the rules and regs and identifying birds and whatnot.  but i ended up getting a warning.  so overall my experience with the game commission has been pretty good. i have never heard of one actually coming to someones house. i guess it just depends on the person and the officer
#38
Dr. Trout
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RE: The game comission 2009/09/18 22:23:01 (permalink)
Now don't get me wrong as I said there are those WCOs that are a little "over the top"... and some of you live or hunt in their areas

the ones I refer to as the "wanna be cops" ...  they must find some sort of thrill in giving out tickets for anything and everything...   luckily I will say that I do not know any of them personally but I have heard the stories from hunters and others at the PGC... and one covers an area not far from here and to tell the truth I hope to never meet him.. he's the one S-10 is teasing me about..

all the ones I have met appear to be top notch and have offer their help or knowledge when ever I have asked for either..!!!

All my experiences have been good ones too.. in fact during archery season usually the local WCO or his deputy will wait for me to exit the woods during archery season if they see my truck parked at dusk... course we end up BSing for an extra half hour...

Years ago I shot a doe in buck season by mistake.. I field dressed it, tagged it with my buck tag,  dragged it home and called the PGC.. the local WCO came over.. gave me the citation, took the deer and gave me a new buck tag... I asked did I have to have a lecture because between myself and my wife I had already been beaten up pretty good over how STUPID of a mistake I had made.. he agreed I had had enough and gave me no lecture.. we are friends to this day and have a good relationship as well........
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2009/09/18 22:25:46
#39
bingsbaits
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RE: The game comission 2009/09/18 22:26:06 (permalink)
if new items are added to the sport of hunting to make it easier to harvest deer.. why is it illegal to use my radio and say..

""Hey Bings.. there's a buck headed your way""   


silly rule IMHO.......  and does anyone really use their own names on the radios anyhow ??????
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
That's not Legal ???

"There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
 
 


#40
McD50
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RE: The game comission 2009/09/18 22:29:54 (permalink)
I agree with you Doc, i have met quite a few officers and i havent met one that has given me a hassle or anything. all have been more helpful then a pain.  i have heard stories of some bad ones though and i just hope i never have a run in with one.
#41
Dr. Trout
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RE: The game comission 2009/09/18 22:34:27 (permalink)
Believe it or not it is consider using an electronic device to help harvest game if used in that way...
 
where ya at bing...I'm going to the car...  are you alright.. what time is it..  etc --- all okay..
 
there's a deer coming... nope now that is not legal..  as I said ...  silly... silly... silly....
#42
Dr. Trout
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RE: The game comission 2009/09/18 22:57:48 (permalink)
I did want to comment on what jimhalupka orginally wrote...
 
"""They patrol access points and badger hunters from the comfort of their vehicles.  Sad part about it is, most of the illegal activity that is detrimental to the sport, is not happening during the times they are at peak patrol, nor is it in the concentrated areas of patrol.""" 
 
I have no idea what area jim is talking about or what WCO.. but those that I know do more "off hours" work than they do during hunting hours... the local Jefferson county WCO or deputies spend hours and hours after dark  year round patrolling for poachers... This area used to be TERRIBLE for that before he got here... now that is one of his most cited violations... poaching and spotlighting with a loaded weapon... there are nights he is here watching the fields nearby for poachers.. when I moved here it was a nightly occurance to hear rifle shots in the fields..  now it is rarely done here.. but other aresa near by are still a problem and of course they can only cover a couple areas at a time..
 
the decoy stories are another sources of good stories... and require alot of time spent watching the decoy..
 
WCO Hartless and WCO Bodenhorn (Elk County) are IN the woods alot of the time.. and some complain about them approaching during a hunting session...
 
 can you honestly tell me if you were a WCO you'd want to be walking around IN THE WOODS during deer season ????   I DON'T THINK SO !!!!!
 
The fact they check parking lots is two fold..
 
one is the guys with loaded guns in and on cars and trucks... and the other they get to add the harvested deer they see to those they watch for the report cards turned in for...
 
and without knowing some WCOs  most guys would have no idea how much work goes into investagations in many of the cases that never get put in the papers or press releases...
 
I think WCOs, for the most part, enjoy running into and talking to 85% of the hunters they encounter... but the other 15% can be a real challenge...
#43
DanesDad
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RE: The game comission 2009/09/18 23:33:26 (permalink)
Dr. Trout,
Isn't there some total that is kept of "incidents" that WCOs get involved in and how many of those result in warnings, or fines?
#44
Claypool313
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RE: The game comission 2009/09/19 09:27:10 (permalink)
Sorry to change subject, but this question is on the same lines.  It's about the permanent hunting camp roster for organized deer drives.  My friends and family get together in my uncle's garage of his primary residence to hunt the gun season.  From there we walk to where we conduct drives.  So is this considered a 'permanent hunting camp'?  I thought not, so we never filled out a roster.

The wording in this law without definition of 'camp' is leaving a lot to interpretation.
#45
Dr. Trout
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RE: The game comission 2009/09/19 10:12:46 (permalink)
Danesdad..

I believe a WCO has to fill out paperwork monthly, somewhere in my files I have a few reports from the past that WCOS filled out, I'll see if I can find one and share the info for an example..

They are not to my knowledge available to the public..

Also there is some of that info in the annual report and that's on the PGC web site.
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2009/09/19 10:13:14
#46
Dr. Trout
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RE: The game comission 2009/09/19 10:55:37 (permalink)
Okay found what I was looking for.. It's the annual report for one WCO in Pa.
It came from Harrisburg .. so not sure if it the higher end or the lower end or the average..
 
 in talking with WCOs and PGC folks I'd say AVERAGE...
 
 Before I just list stats I want you to do soemthing...  what do you think the figures are for this guy/gal in 2001.....
 
(2001)
 
LAW ENFORCEMENT
charges-
convictions-
penalties- $$$$
avergae conviction- $$$$
mistake kills-
warnings-
hunter accidents-
hours worked-
miles driven-
 
WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT
roadkills-
illegal kills-
others-
 
BLACK BEARS
roadkills-
crop kills-
other-
 
 
PHEASANT STOCKING
males-
females-
total-
 
 
HUNTER-TRAPPER EDUCATION
number of courses-
number of students-
 
 
EDUCATIONAL PROGRAMS
(conservation orgs,educational orgs,exhibits,news media events,
service orgs,sportsmens org,youth org,others)
 
total programs -
total hours
total people-
 
***One thing not in this report but has its own report is the results of cutting open road kill does in Jan-Mar and checking for embryos and other breeding info
 
 
 
will give the 2001 stats after work this evening... as you think about this ,think about the time involved in each of the events/activities...
 
 
#47
spoonchucker
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RE: The game comission 2009/09/19 14:37:35 (permalink)
I can't speak as to the PGC. But here is a report from PF&BC WCOs in Erie county
 
The total prosecutions during the 2008 fall steelhead season reflect an increase of approximately 13 percent compared to the same period in 2007. The majority of violations were comprised of snagging, possessing foul hooked fish, lack of a Lake Erie Permit, various nursery water violations, use of illegal fishing devices, PFBC property violations, fishing without a license, littering, possessing more than the daily creel limit, lack of a Trout Permit, and disturbing state nursery waters. There were 312 prosecutions and 811 warnings issued for a total of 1,123 enforcement actions.
 
Seems they lean fairly heavily toward warnings, over citations. I suppose the type of violations,( and whether or not they chronic in the area ), as well as the timing play a part in warning over citation. You may get away with an warning on an equipment violation ( unservicable lifevest, etc ) in may, but a citation in mid June.  An expired license may get a warning, on Jan, 3, but a citation on Jan. 23.


Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

Step Up, or Step Aside


The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody.

GL
#48
SPIKER
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RE: The game comission 2009/09/19 15:25:09 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout

Years ago I shot a doe in buck season by mistake.. I field dressed it, tagged it with my buck tag,  dragged it home and called the PGC.. the local WCO came over.. gave me the citation, took the deer and gave me a new buck tag... I asked did I have to have a lecture because between myself and my wife I had already been beaten up pretty good over how STUPID of a mistake I had made.. he agreed I had had enough and gave me no lecture.. we are friends to this day and have a good relationship as well........



You preaching one shot kills and all,how do you mistake a doe for a buck!!!
#49
DanesDad
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RE: The game comission 2009/09/19 16:15:06 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: spoonchucker

I can't speak as to the PGC. But here is a report from PF&BC WCOs in Erie county

The total prosecutions during the 2008 fall steelhead season reflect an increase of approximately 13 percent compared to the same period in 2007. The majority of violations were comprised of snagging, possessing foul hooked fish, lack of a Lake Erie Permit, various nursery water violations, use of illegal fishing devices, PFBC property violations, fishing without a license, littering, possessing more than the daily creel limit, lack of a Trout Permit, and disturbing state nursery waters. There were 312 prosecutions and 811 warnings issued for a total of 1,123 enforcement actions.
 
Seems they lean fairly heavily toward warnings, over citations. I suppose the type of violations,( and whether or not they chronic in the area ), as well as the timing play a part in warning over citation. You may get away with an warning on an equipment violation ( unservicable lifevest, etc ) in may, but a citation in mid June.  An expired license may get a warning, on Jan, 3, but a citation on Jan. 23.



That's the kind of thing I thought might exist for the PGC. In this example, I feel that the ratio of warnings to citations is pretty fair tho, as you stated, there are other factors involved.
#50
DanesDad
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RE: The game comission 2009/09/19 16:17:35 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout

Okay found what I was looking for.. It's the annual report for one WCO in Pa.
It came from Harrisburg .. so not sure if it the higher end or the lower end or the average..

in talking with WCOs and PGC folks I'd say AVERAGE...

Before I just list stats I want you to do soemthing...  what do you think the figures are for this guy/gal in 2001.....

(2001)

LAW ENFORCEMENT
charges-
convictions-
penalties- $$$$
avergae conviction- $$$$
mistake kills-
warnings-
hunter accidents-
hours worked-
miles driven-

WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT
roadkills-
illegal kills-
others-

BLACK BEARS
roadkills-
crop kills-
other-


PHEASANT STOCKING
males-
females-
total-


HUNTER-TRAPPER EDUCATION
number of courses-
number of students-


EDUCATIONAL PROGRAMS
(conservation orgs,educational orgs,exhibits,news media events,
service orgs,sportsmens org,youth org,others)

total programs -
total hours
total people-

***One thing not in this report but has its own report is the results of cutting open road kill does in Jan-Mar and checking for embryos and other breeding info



will give the 2001 stats after work this evening... as you think about this ,think about the time involved in each of the events/activities...



I would be interested in seeing the totals from 2001, and the totals for the last year available (assuming that would be 2008). That would indicate if the PGC is trending towards more citations/fewer warnings- and may indicate a shift towards seeing violators as a new revenue stream.
#51
Dr. Trout
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RE: The game comission 2009/09/19 20:32:22 (permalink)
Danes dad...
 
I'm in the process of trying to get a WCO to give me his 2008 results .. we'll see what happens ???
 
 
 as for 2001 and the WCO above mentioned...   remember this is just one person from the North CentraL ( I believe ) because that is my area of concern on most topics...
 
 
charges- 77
convictions- 76
rate- 98.70%
penalties- $12,900.00
average conviction- $169.74 ... MAN IS THAT CHEAP !!!
mistake kill - 1
warnings- 118
accidents- 1
 
hours worked- 2805
miles driven- 25,290
 
 
WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT
roadkills - 181
permit- 29
illegal kills- 11  (4 males and 7 females)
other kills - 3
 
BEAR
road kills - 8
 
PHEASANTS
stocked - 1380
 
HUNTER TRAPPER EDUCATION
courses- 5
students- 133
 
EDUCATION PROGRAMS
total programs - 43
total hours - 340
total people - 5796
 
looks to me like this WCO does more than just ride around and hassle hunters
#52
Dr. Trout
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RE: The game comission 2009/09/19 20:41:02 (permalink)
becasue you asked  ----
 
#1 it was about 20 years ago....
 
It was opening morning I was sitting on a ridge watching a small grove of pines and I saw a nice buck chase a doe into the pines heading right at me... the doe came running out and I dropped the next deer out dead in what I thought was HIS tracks....  never looked at the head in my scope.. dead center on the chest and squeezed the trigger.... 
 
suddenly the buck came running out... ****...
 
there must have been another doe in the pines I did not see....  
 
so that's how I shot a doe instead of a buck..
 
stupid.. stupid.. stupid...
 
if the fine would have been more than $25.00 I still would have reported myself and would have paid it because it was my stupidity that caused the illegal act...
 
still only took one shot (bullet) though
 
next mornig I hunted SGL#54 about 5 miles from my home and bagged the second biggest buck ever  and yes standing and only used one bullet ....
#53
DanesDad
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RE: The game comission 2009/09/19 21:39:09 (permalink)
118 warnings and 77 citations. That was in 2001. I wonder if it has changed much since then, particularly in the last couple years.
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spoonchucker
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RE: The game comission 2009/09/19 22:09:02 (permalink)
Danes,
 
One has to look at the two ( PGC/PF&BC ) as a kind of apples to oranges, or at least apple sauce compaison. I would guess ( other than boat equipment ), the PGC WCO sees a higher percentage of saftey oriented violations. As opposed to regultations to protect game, or fishery populations. When saftey is the issue, I suspect there is an increase in the citation VS warning ratio. As there should be IMO.

Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

Step Up, or Step Aside


The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody.

GL
#55
DanesDad
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RE: The game comission 2009/09/19 22:46:52 (permalink)
I wasn't trying to compare WCOs to fish wardens. I was just interested if the ratio of citations to warnings have changed as the PGC became more cash strapped.
#56
Dr. Trout
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RE: The game comission 2009/09/19 23:21:38 (permalink)
here ya go ===========
 
YEARLY TOTALS ----
 
 
2001 :
 
citations = 8,125
warnings = 12,086
94% prosection rate
$1,415,505 in fines
 
 
2008 :
citations = 6,441
warnings = 10,160
96% proscetion rate
$1,111,560
 
so much for using this to get more money !!!!
 
less fines.. less citations..  less warnings...
 
oh wait there are less hunters and
less WCOs,
 
some WMUs do not even have a WCO .....
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2009/09/20 07:57:02
#57
16506fish
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RE: The game comission 2009/09/20 10:04:33 (permalink)
if your out spotn and got a LTC and a handgun your cool. Anything else, rifle, shotgun, etc- plan on getting a nice coupon handed to ya
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spoonchucker
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RE: The game comission 2009/09/20 14:05:18 (permalink)
Danes,
 
I understand that, and it's good that you are taking the objective approach of comparing the Citation VS warning ratio by year. Rather than just the number of citations by year. I'm not sure what the percentage of the overall fine, goes tio the agency. Thus it's effectiveness as a "revenue generator". If I recall it's not as high, as one might believe.
 
I would be inclined to believe the perctenage of citations, might actually decline. Given the current economy, more folks, might be spending more time in the woods. AND may be inclined to pop that extra, or out of season deer, rabbit, or pheasant, etc.  This would increase the percentage of game VS saftey violations. The WCO may be more understanding/sympathetic, to the game violator, as well. Then again, trying to predict "human nature", can often bring suprising results.

Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

Step Up, or Step Aside


The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody.

GL
#59
Dr. Trout
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RE: The game comission 2009/09/20 15:31:36 (permalink)
Also in the E-mail was the fact that the #1 violation for 2008
was the illgeal harvest of game
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2009/09/20 15:32:24
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