Good article about the truth

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SilverKype
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2009/02/23 07:54:31 (permalink)

Good article about the truth

http://articles.lancasteronline.com/local/4/234054
 

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    dpms
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    RE: Good article about the truth 2009/02/23 08:27:39 (permalink)
    Good article.  Sort of just highlights what a mess this was and still is.  Look forward to the time when we all have a direction and we can sit back and watch the data for the next few years until 2012. 
     
    Legislators throwing their weight around where it does not belong. People accusing crossbow supporters of wanting the legislature to step in again(I only know of one crossbow supporter that feels the legisature should step in, the rest want no parts of it).  Schreffler sort of trying to pick a fight with the legislature.  The UBP saying there is a glimmer of hope left that crossbows will be disallowed.
     
    I will say that there are many people that just do not realize yet how they may be affected in the future all because of they way this issue was handled by some and the bad blood that it has caused.

    My rifle is a black rifle
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    SilverKype
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    RE: Good article about the truth 2009/02/23 08:47:18 (permalink)
    Can you blame Schreffler d ?  He's frustrated.  He would have voted against, if he knew this was going to happen.   That would have put the vote a 4-3 against.
     
     

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    SilverKype
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    RE: Good article about the truth 2009/02/23 08:48:15 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: dpms

    I will say that there are many people that just do not realize yet how they may be affected in the future all because of they way this issue was handled by some and the bad blood that it has caused.

     
    If you have something to say, just say it.  Not sugarcoating needed.

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    dpms
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    RE: Good article about the truth 2009/02/23 09:21:15 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: SilverKype

    Can you blame Schreffler d ?  He's frustrated.  He would have voted against, if he knew this was going to happen.   That would have put the vote a 4-3 against.


     
    No I can't blame Schreffler. I would be frustrated too.  His vote was needed and and his position was clear.
     
     

    My rifle is a black rifle
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    dpms
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    RE: Good article about the truth 2009/02/23 09:24:31 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: SilverKype

    If you have something to say, just say it.  Not sugarcoating needed.


    I will be happy when we can all enter this fall as archers, no matter what the other guy is using, and then take a look at the numbers over the next few years.  In 2012 we can talk about the harvests and recruitment and determine if this was a good move, neutral or negative. 
     
    I assure you I will be looking at the numbers hard no matter what they may reveal. 
    post edited by dpms - 2009/02/23 09:26:14

    My rifle is a black rifle
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    SilverKype
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    RE: Good article about the truth 2009/02/23 10:07:54 (permalink)
    How much validity is going to be in the data in the coming years ?   There are going to be xbow folks claiming bow and arrow on their harvest cards and bow folks checking xbow.

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    dpms
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    RE: Good article about the truth 2009/02/23 11:04:20 (permalink)
    We can only trust that the sportsman of this state step up and do the right thing.  You are right that their will be some with bad intentions but the report card are all that we have and that is what will be looked at,  just as it always was done.  Along with new archery license sales, dates of harvest and locations of harvests.
     
    Some hunters turn in bogus report cards as it is now.

    My rifle is a black rifle
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    S-10
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    RE: Good article about the truth 2009/02/23 12:31:44 (permalink)
    GEE --does that mean we get to break out the boxing gloves for another few months.
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    bingsbaits
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    RE: Good article about the truth 2009/02/23 14:42:25 (permalink)
    I still say crossbow hunters have shorter shafts....and I'm stickin to it...
     
     
    Not seeing alot of interest yet at the archery shops..Hope they don't wait till Sept. if they are going to get into a new hobby....

    "There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
     
     


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    dpms
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    RE: Good article about the truth 2009/02/23 16:29:08 (permalink)
    I think this optics issue deal will be causing some to wait.  A few that I know are going to wait till at least after the April meeting. 

    My rifle is a black rifle
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    bingsbaits
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    RE: Good article about the truth 2009/02/23 16:40:45 (permalink)
    How do you see it playing out Dp ???  A revote??  Legislature involvement??? optics??? no optics????
     
    If I were the commish that got the end around on the optics issue can't say as I would be very cooperative after that....

    "There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
     
     


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    dpms
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    RE: Good article about the truth 2009/02/23 20:00:33 (permalink)
    Bings,

    This whole thing is in turmoil it seems.  The permit holders really got a bad deal with this.  I guess anything is a possibility but what I see may happen is a special session of the BOC before the April meeting so that any changes will be effective come this fall.  If the BOC waits till the April meeting to act, because any changes have to be voted on twice, that change will not make the fall season. The PGC's webpage has a crossbow FAQ link on the right side.  Under the optics questions, it is clear something will happen.

    At this point, my best guess would be legalization of any optics for all archers or possibly grandfathering permit holders.  The focus should be harvest statistics and new recruitment, not optics, to ensure good data for 2012.
    post edited by dpms - 2009/02/23 20:01:36

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    dpms
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    RE: Good article about the truth 2009/02/23 20:04:53 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: bingsbaits

    If I were the commish that got the end around on the optics issue can't say as I would be very cooperative after that....

     
    Got that right.  But I would think he should have considered the permit holders when he introduced the ammendment. 

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    SilverKype
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    RE: Good article about the truth 2009/03/06 13:21:09 (permalink)
    Meeting notes from the January vote...
     
    -------------------
     
    PRESIDENT PALONE: Thank you. Thank you, Director DuBrock.

    10 I would like to call upon Director Rich Palmer. He's our Director of Wildlife

    11 Protection. And we'll go to Adopted Rule Making on page 24.

    12 MR. BECHTEL: The next item involves the adoption of proposed

    13 amendments to Sections 141.41 and 141.43 through 143.45 and Section

    14 141.47. 15 To effectively manage the wildlife resources of this Commonwealth, the

    16 Game Commission, at its October 24th, 2008 meeting, proposed the following

    17 changes: To amend Sections 141.41, 141.43 through 143.45 and Section

    18 141.47 (relating to big game) to restructure the regulatory provisions relating

    19 to big game hunting and to allow the use of crossbows during the various big

    20 game seasons.

    21 The Executive Director and staff recommend final adoption of these

    22 amendments to 58 Pa. Code as shown on Exhibit A on pages 25 through 31 of

    23 your agenda.

    24 PRESIDENT PALONE: Thank you, Brad. Is there a motion to accept

    25 this adopted rule making?

    26 COMMISSIONER SCHLEIDEN: So moved.

    27 PRESIDENT PALONE: Commissioner Schleiden. Is there a second?

    1 COMMISSIONER ISABELLA: Second.

    2 PRESIDENT PALONE: Second, Commissioner Isabella. Is there a discussion on the proposed adopted rule making.

    3 COMMISSIONER ISABELLA: Madam President.

    4 PRESIDENT PALONE: Commissioner Isabella.

    5 COMMISSIONER ISABELLA: I want to offer an amendment, and

    6 it's to make editorial changes to the broadhead description.

    7 PRESIDENT PALONE: Okay. What page is that?

    8 COMMISSIONER ISABELLA: That's going to be affecting page 25, 9 28, 29 and 31.

    10 PRESIDENT PALONE: Okay. Go ahead.

    11 COMMISSIONER ISABELLA: The language reads: "A crossbow

    12 and bolt. A crossbow must have a peak draw weight of at least 125 pounds.

    13 A bolt must be equipped with a broadhead that has an outside diameter or

    14 width of at least 7/8th inches with at least two fixed cutting edges located on

    15 the same plane throughout the length of the cutting surface and shall not

    16 exceed 3 inches in length."

    17 That is affecting page 25, Section 141.43 (a)(1); page 28, Section 141.44

    18 (a)(1); page 29, Section 141.45 (a)(1); and page 31, Section 141.47 (a)(4) and

    19 (5).

    20 PRESIDENT PALONE: Thank you, Commissioner Isabella. Is there

    21 a second?

    22 COMMISSIONER WEANER: I second the motion.

    23 PRESIDENT PALONE: Second, Commissioner Weaner. Is there any

    24 discussion on the amendment to change the broadhead description? Hearing

    25 none, all those in favor of the amendment signify by saying aye. All those

    26 opposed say no.

    27 COMMISSIONER BOOP: No.

    28 PRESIDENT PALONE: No?

    1 COMMISSIONER BOOP: No.

    2 PRESIDENT PALONE: Commissioner Boop.

    3 COMMISSIONER DELANEY: Madam President, the vote is six to

    4 one. The editorial changes for Commissioner Isabella's amendment passes.

    5 PRESIDENT PALONE: Thank you. Are there any other

    6 amendments?

    7 COMMISSIONER SCHREFFLER: Madam President.

    8 PRESIDENT PALONE: Commissioner Schreffler.

    9 COMMISSIONER SCHREFFLER: Madam President, I would like to

    10 offer amendments also concerning several items. In the last weeks all the

    11 communications and testimony has convinced me that there's much to learn

    12 about implementing crossbow use during archery season. So I'm asking the

    13 Bureau of Wildlife Management to better determine the facts and provide

    14 timely reports to the Board of Commissioners so we may make a better

    15 informed decision in the future. My amendment is as follows and is in several

    16 parts, which I will cover one at a time after which we can vote on at once:

    17 The first amendment includes a sunset clause to allow the use -- the first

    18 amendment prohibits the use of magnifying telescopic sights for archery deer

    19 and archery bear seasons. The language would be that the use of magnifying

    20 telescopic sights would be a prohibited item affecting under pages 26, Section

    21 141.43 (a)(2)(3) and on page 28, Section 141.44 (a)(2)(5).

    22 The second item is the sunset clause, to allow the use of crossbows in archery

    23 deer and archery bear season. And the wording should be, This subparagraph

    24 shall become effective July 1st, 2009, and expire on June 30th, 2012, unless

    25 the Commission authorizes its continued legal effectiveness prior to June

    26 30th, 2012. This will be inserted on page 25, Section 141.43 (a)(1)(2) and on

    27 page 28, Section 141.44 (a)(1)(2)

    1 That concludes my amendment.

    2 PRESIDENT PALONE: Thank you. Is there a second to Commissioner Schreffler's amendment?

    3 COMMISSIONER ISABELLA: Second.

    4 PRESIDENT PALONE: Second, Commissioner Isabella. Is there any

    5 discussion of the amendment? Commissioner Boop.

    6 COMMISSIONER BOOP: Yes. A point of order. Can we discuss

    7 both proposed amendments at one time, or do you want to discuss them

    8 separately?

    9 COMMISSIONER SCHLEIDEN: Madam President.

    10 COMMISSIONER BOOP: The two proposed amendments, as I

    11 understand, can we discuss them together or separately?

    12 PRESIDENT PALONE: We can discuss them together because

    13 Commissioner Schreffler asked that we vote on them together.

    14 COMMISSIONER BOOP: May I then?

    15 PRESIDENT PALONE: Yes, go ahead, Commissioner Boop.

    16 COMMISSIONER BOOP: With respect to the two proposed

    17 amendments, I'll discuss the sunset provision amendment first. I've been on

    18 this board for five years. I've been a municipal solicitor for 35. My

    19 experience with sunset provisions is they simply do not work. You cannot

    20 give something and then later, after there's been reliance on it, take it away.

    21 So the sunset amendment in my opinion respectfully does nothing to add a

    22 plus or a minus to the original proposal.

    23 On the issue of the magnification or telescopic sights, one of the

    24 arguments that I have heard in favor of this main proposal to allow crossbows

    25 is that it will get the Commission out of the permit business on this issue.

    26 Currently we're issuing somewhere around 60,000 of these permits, and it is a

    27 bureaucratic problem for the agency and an expense. This amendment will

    1 simply put us back in permit business in my opinion. Studies have shown that

    2 approximately one-third of elderly people in this country suffer from some

    3 form of vision deficit. We already have 60 some thousand people out there

    4 hunting with crossbows, presumably some of which have visual impairments.

    5 So this amendment is going to take away the strongest argument in favor of

    6 crossbows about getting us out of the permit business. In a couple of years,

    7 we'll be right back in the permit business on this issue with people applying

    8 and wanting to get disability permits because they have visual impairments.

    9 So I do not think that the amendment is appropriate or wise. This proposal,

    10 the main amendment should fall or rise on its own merits without this

    11 amendment.

    12 PRESIDENT PALONE: Thank you, Commissioner Boop. Are there

    13 any other comments about these amendments? I would just like to say that

    14 people would still be allowed to use the 1-by-30 red dot 0 devices that would

    15 help them with their vision. So we really aren't discouraging people from

    16 using those. They're very helpful in sighting your target. Any other

    17 discussion?

    18 COMMISSIONER BOOP: Excuse me, Madam President. Just a

    19 point of clarification, if Commissioner Schreffler's amendment passes, those

    20 people who are already permitted to use a crossbow, are they going to be able

    21 to use magnifying telescopic sights? I don't understand the amendment in that

    22 respect.

    23 PRESIDENT PALONE: Director Palmer.

    24 MR. PALMER: Commissioner Boop, no, they would not. The

    25 amendment as made would prohibit the use of all magnifying telescopic sights

    26 with no exceptions.

    27 COMMISSIONER BOOP: Thank you.

    1 PRESIDENT PALONE: Any other questions or discussion? Hearing

    2 none, all those in favor of the amendments signify by saying aye. All those

    3 opposed say no.

    (Vote taken.)


    4 COMMISSIONER DELANEY: Madam President, I want to give our

    5 stenographer what the vote was so we can have it entered into the record.

    6 PRESIDENT PALONE: Do you need a show of hands?

    7 COMMISSIONER DELANEY: That would be better if we could so it

    8 could be reflected in the official minutes.

    9 PRESIDENT PALONE: All those in favor of the amendment signify

    10 by raising your right hand.

    11 COMMISSIONER DELANEY: I have the yeses, Madam President.

    12 PRESIDENT PALONE: All of those opposed,

    13 same sign.

    (Vote taken.)


    15 COMMISSIONER DELANEY: Madam President, the vote is yes,

    16 Commissioner Isabella, Commissioner Schreffler, Commissioner Schleiden,

    17 Commissioner Palone. Commissioner Delaney and Commissioner Boop,

    18 Commissioner Weaner what was your vote?

    19 COMMISSIONER WEANER: No.

    20 COMMISSIONER DELANEY: Commissioner Weaner is no also. So

    21 the vote is four to three.

    22 PRESIDENT PALONE: Thank you. Back to the original adopted

    23 rule making. We'll vote on the proposal as amended to restructure the

    24 regulatory provisions relating to big game hunting and to allow the use of

    25 crossbows during the various big game seasons. All those in favor of the

    26 proposed --

    27 COMMISSIONER BOOP: Madam President, are we not going to

    28 allow discussion on the main motion as amended?


    1 PRESIDENT PALONE: Yes, we can.

    2 COMMISSIONER BOOP: Because I think we ought to have an

    3 opportunity to --

    4 PRESIDENT PALONE: I thought we had done that. Thank you.

    5 COMMISSIONER BOOP: No. All we had discussion on so far was

    6 the amendment. As a point of order, I think we should allow discussion.

    7 PRESIDENT PALONE: Go ahead. Does anyone else want to discuss

    8 the original proposal?

    9 COMMISSIONER WEANER: Yes.

    10 PRESIDENT PALONE: Commissioner Weaner.

    11 COMMISSIONER WEANER: Are you calling me now?

    12 PRESIDENT PALONE: Yes.

    13 COMMISSIONER WEANER: In the original proposal to change

    14 them to add crossbows to the full season, I would like to explain my reason

    15 for voting no on this proposal. And my reasons for such are that I don't see a

    16 biological argument either way on this issue, therefore you come down to

    17 sociological issues or some other means of determining which way to vote.

    18 And from my correspondence and people I talked to and the people that have

    19 contacted me, I feel fairly confident that the overwhelming majority of hunters

    20 in Pennsylvania are not in favor of this. At the risk of annoying, ticking off,

    21 angering the vast majority of the hunters in Pennsylvania, I think it would be

    22 foolish to vote yes on this. I don't see a huge benefit to anybody by voting

    23 yes. I don't think we're going to recruit significant more hunters. I just don't

    24 see an upside. And to me, unless there's a huge upside, it's not worth angering

    25 one of our greatest constituencies. So therefore I also vote no.

    26 PRESIDENT PALONE: Any other discussion? Commissioner Boop.

    27 COMMISSIONER BOOP: Yes, Madam President. I also intend to

    28 vote no on the proposal, and I would like to give my reasons for voting no. In

    1 the years 2006 and 2007, I had the unique opportunity to be president of the

    2 board. One of roles of the president is that you assign and control the flow of

    3 information through the committees. In all of 2006 and all of 2007, this was

    4 never an issue of any significance. There were no requests made. This was

    5 not even in my knowledge, to my knowledge even on the radar screen or the

    6 agenda of proposals coming up through the agency. At the end of June of

    7 2008, one commissioner made a request that we consider this proposal and

    8 ask staff to consider it. Here we are seven months later and being asked to

    9 vote on the final approval.

    10 This agency in the five years that I have been here has taken a slow,

    11 metrological approach to all issues. We can cite countless examples. The

    12 archery bear. It went through committee. A two-day season in the middle of

    13 the week, a three-year trial period, a collecting of information. Look what

    14 we've done with bobcats, the slow, methodical approach that we've taken.

    15 And we've applied science, we've gathered information, and we've acted in a

    16 very cautious manner. We're taking the same approach to fishers.

    17 So I ask my fellow commissioners, why the rush on this issue? Why

    18 the rush to judgment when we have not any of these things on this particular

    19 issue? So I have to ask myself what is driving this issue. And I think maybe

    20 it's the sportsmen. Maybe the sportsmen want it. We as commissioners think

    21 everyone sitting up here probably receives somewhere between 500 and 1,000

    22 e-mails and letters and phone calls and personal contacts about this issue since

    23 it was proposed in June. Most commissioners I've talked to, the opposition

    24 was 90 percent to 10. Now, some commissioners in the more metropolitan

    25 areas may have had more like 50/50. Mine was clearly running 90 percent or

    26 more opposed to the NRA alert Thursday a week ago. But even then it was

    27 roughly 50 percent voters.



    1 I agree with Commissioner Weaner, if you're going to spend so much

    2 political capital, you ought to get some benefit. We're going to annoy and

    3 aggravate, I believe, the vast majority of our supporting community. And an

    4 argument can be made that we're, in effect, destroying the six weeks' archery

    5 season by putting this crossbow initiative in for the full six weeks. So what's

    6 driving it? The only thing that I can see are two real possibilities driving this.

    7 Number one, there seems to be a fear that if we don't act, that the Legislature

    8 is going to act. Well, they may. They may act one way or the other.

    9 Regardless how we vote here today, there may be legislation introduced.

    10 Quite candidly, I believe, based upon the contacts that I have, Legislators are

    11 going to get more contacts to introduce legislation to do something about

    12 allowing crossbows in this season than to do something the other way.

    13 We don't want the Legislature to interfere. So I ask myself and I ask

    14 fellow commissioners, Why don't we do what we've done with every similar

    15 proposal? Why don't we send it back to the Committee? Why don't we study

    16 this issue? Why don't we contact the groups that are involved to see if a six-

    17 week season is merited or a one-week season is merited or whether we should

    18 limit this to one or two management units rather than this rush to get it in so

    19 quickly with so little debate and discussion.

    20 Just as evidence that we're rushing it, we have to be to have

    21 Commissioner Isabella's amendment this morning to clarify the specifications.

    22 I think that's just another clear example. If this is a good proposal, it will be a

    23 good proposal in 2010. We'll do our due diligence and we'll come back, and it

    24 will be a good proposal then just like it's a good proposal now. I, quite

    25 frankly, fellow commissioners, am very troubled by the amount of money

    26 that's involved here. Now, you've made fun of my numbers. But if you go out

    27 to an archery shop and we all know that your 50-year-old hunter whose

    28 children are out of the house and they want to get the right equipment at


    1 Cabela's or Gander Mountain or whatever, they're going to spend, quite

    2 frankly, close to a thousand dollars to go crossbow hunting this fall. And I

    3 think that the statistics show -- and although I argued it with Mr. Galida who's

    4 here representing the crossbow manufacturers, I think there's about a hundred

    5 million dollars in play here. Another year will tell us how much that hundred

    6 million dollars has affected this process. So on the merits, there's very little to

    7 be gained. There's a lot to be lost.

    8 There's a couple of other things that I think merit consideration. This

    9 board is changing. By September of this year, we're going to have three new

    10 commissioners, hopefully. It's quite possible from the discussion that we've

    11 had here that we're going to go into the fall with a relatively new board having

    12 to deal with what this is going to cost. And as many as six of those

    13 commissioners could be opposed to this proposal. So for those two

    14 commissioners that are going off, I simply ask you, is it fair to burden this

    15 agency with this proposal, so poorly thought out, and have this occur? I

    16 encourage every member of this board to vote this proposal down. If you

    17 don't want to vote it down, at least let's table it and go back and do the due

    18 diligence we should have done in the first place. I'm respectfully am moving

    19 to table this motion.

    20 PRESIDENT PALONE: There's a motion on the floor to table the

    21 proposal. Is there a second?

    22 COMMISSIONER WEANER: I second the motion.

    23 PRESIDENT PALONE: Commissioner Weaner. Is there any further

    24 discussion? We'll vote on the amendment to table. All those in favor signify

    25 by saying aye.

    26 (Vote taken.)

    27 COMMISSIONER DELANEY: Madam President, if I can ask by a

    28 show of hands.



    1 PRESIDENT PALONE: A show of hands those that would like to

    2 table. All those opposed of table.

    3 (Vote taken.)

    4 PRESIDENT PALONE: Thank you.

    5 COMMISSIONER DELANEY: Madam President, the vote was three

    6 to four, and that amendment will fail.

    7 PRESIDENT PALONE: Thank you. I just want to have a little

    8 discussion before we vote on the final proposal as amended. Some people

    9 have said that we will lose our support if we vote on crossbows; that people

    10 have supported the Game Commission in the past; that they have supported

    11 commissioners in the past. But I would say that it's really not about the

    12 agency or the commissioners. What you're really supporting is wildlife

    13 management, and it's really not about us. Either you're going to support

    14 wildlife management or not. And it's about supporting our natural resources.

    15 And I believe that sportsmen and conservationists will go on supporting

    16 wildlife management and our natural resources and conservation no matter

    17 how we vote on this issue. So it's really not about us. If hunting were a

    18 growing and expanding sport, I might vote no on crossbows. But, really,

    19 hunting is a waning sport when you look at the whole society. Dedicated

    20 hunters will go on hunting. Other people will go on to other things.

    21 Pennsylvania is really getting much older as a state. Our average age of

    22 people is only second to Florida. It's the oldest state. So it's not like we have

    23 millions and millions and millions of new people knocking down our door to

    24 go hunting. And we need to look at ourselves as hunters and not as small

    25 factions.

    26 Being on the Commission for all the years I've been on, I really heard a lot of

    27 stories about doom and gloom and predictions and doom and gloom, but

    28 really none of those things have happened. I'm not going to go into all of


    1 those examples, but there were several examples about safety issues if we did

    2 this or that, hunters rushing up to take over Game Land 176 if we open grouse

    3 season, things like that; safety issues in our October season. Those things

    4 have not come to pass. I don't think that crossbows will roll into the hunting

    5 season and all the dire predictions will come to pass. But I guess the biggest

    6 issue for me is that this is 2009. And while the anti-hunting community and

    7 the animal rights community is growing and getting more money and more

    8 organized, we are still arguing about what kind of hunting implements we're

    9 going use. And as a commissioner, I don't have really that luxury to look at

    10 very tiny, finite pieces of information. I have to look at really the big things

    11 going on. Just an example, in Allegheny County there is really an organized,

    12 growing opposition to hunting and hunters and hunting implements. So I

    13 think it's in our best interest to try to come together on these issues and really

    14 focus on those people who would try to end our hunting heritage and our

    15 hunting privileges. Now, I'm going to call for the question.

    16 COMMISSIONER SCHLEIDEN: Madam President.

    17 PRESIDENT PALONE: Commissioner Schleiden.

    18 COMMISSIONER SCHLEIDEN: Thank you, Madam President.

    19 First of all, Commissioner Boop, we worked on point-of-sale for what, two

    20 and a half years? And this morning we had to make some

    21 amendments/corrections of the wording. I think that's pretty standard

    22 procedure. And, Commissioner Weaner, I'm sure when you indicated that you

    23 thought it was foolish to do this, you meant the idea and not the

    24 commissioners.

    25 COMMISSIONER WEANER: Yes.

    26 COMMISSIONER SCHLEIDEN: The fact that we're supposedly

    27 rushing to judgment is not really true, not really true. I think our good friends

    28 -- and they still are our good friends -- have indicated that they fought this



    1 thing three times. So ever since I've been on the Board, this has been an issue.

    2 As a matter of fact, I still have postcards from the last round and now we use

    3 the Internet. The NRA was mentioned. The NRA has a hunting division, they

    4 are hunters. And they did respond when they found out, by the way,

    5 Commissioner Boop. That's what the process is about.

    6 This commissioner brought it up in June so that we would have public

    7 comment and an opportunity. I asked in June to bring it forward in October so

    8 that all voices could be heard, both for and against. And we've had some good

    9 testimony from both sides. Manufactured in this is manufactured. They

    10 manufacture crossbows as well. I have a crossbow buyer guide. It's not

    11 crossbow. It's a bow hunters buyers guide that I looked at this morning. It

    12 had 112 pages in it. Eight pages was on sights for compound bow, and most

    13 of the advertising in it was for items for compound bow, the efficiency of the

    14 arrow and some of the changes that were made. So to me this is freedom of

    15 choice. It's that simple, folks, it's freedom of choice about what tool you want

    16 to use. It's also about streamlining regulations. Now, I know that all of the

    17 hunters out there like freedom of choice except if it's an NV dealer. I know

    18 that all the sportsmen like to see our regulations streamlined. This is cleaning

    19 it up quite a bit.

    20 I question this business about the $1,000. That may be true, my friend,

    21 Commissioner Boop. But if they don't want it, why would they spend a

    22 thousand dollars for crossbow? It doesn't make sense to me. So they must

    23 want it. And I've heard this business that nobody wants this. But if you pass

    24 it, everybody is going to do it. So what really is the issue? That's my

    25 question.

    26 Now, I'll speak to the fact that two of us are going off the Board. And

    27 we have had that transition throughout the period of time that I've been on this

    28 board, new people coming on. There's been communications between us.



    1 And I respectfully submit to you that I was not really crazy about the

    2 sunshine, and I'm not really crazy about the magnifying device. However,

    3 realizing I'm going off the Board, whether your experience is the example of

    4 all experiences or not, I felt that that was a reasonable request by

    5 Commissioner Schreffler to look at this thing in two or three years. Why did I

    6 feel that way? Because I know there will be some other commissioners on

    7 this board. And if they feel strongly about it, they will bring it up. So those

    8 are the reasons that I brought this thing forward and asked. No matter how it

    9 goes, it's pure and simple from my standpoint and that's what it is. That's my

    10 comments.

    11 PRESIDENT PALONE: Any other comments? All those in favor of

    12 the rule making as amended signify by raising your right hand. All those

    13 opposed to the rule making as amended, same sign.

    14 (Vote taken.)

    15 COMMISSIONER DELANEY: Madam President, the vote is four to

    16 three to accept the proposed rule making with the amendments.

    17 PRESIDENT PALONE: Thank you, Commissioner Delaney.

    My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
    #15
    S-10
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    RE: Good article about the truth 2009/03/06 19:20:04 (permalink)
    Quite easy to see who they were looking out for and why isn't it. Screw the bowhunters as long as it makes their jobs easier. It's the reason they got full inclusion and the reason for optics.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     
    So this amendment is going to take away the strongest argument in favor of

    6 crossbows about getting us out of the permit business. In a couple of years,

    7 we'll be right back in the permit business on this issue with people applying

    8 and wanting to get disability permits because they have visual impairments.

    9 So I do not think that the amendment is appropriate or
    #16
    Dream Catcher
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    RE: Good article about the truth 2009/03/06 22:43:20 (permalink)
    The private land owners can fix this mine will now read .......
                      POSTED
                  ___________
                         NO 
                  CROSSBOWS
                   _________
    #17
    DanesDad
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    RE: Good article about the truth 2009/03/07 00:02:05 (permalink)
    When it's all said and done, a helluva lot more will be said than done.
    #18
    Dream Catcher
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    RE: Good article about the truth 2009/03/07 00:36:59 (permalink)
    I guess we need a sign for everything these days. Can you say POSTED DONE? Brilliant thank you're (4 of 7) wonderful leaders of the PA Greed Commission. I have a sign for these jagoffs it's called
         NOTICE PGC
    Don't $hit where   you eat.
    #19
    olgerman
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    RE: Good article about the truth 2009/03/07 08:37:36 (permalink)
    The best reason for the change is the fact that license sales in PA have declined from 1,071,205 in 1998 to 924,448 in 2007--a 14% decline. Archery license sales have declined from 328,451 in 1998 to 266,841 in 2007--a 19% decline. This revenue loss in sales is a main contributor in the decision process! We need to get young and female hunters into the field and this change may help.
    #20
    S-10
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    RE: Good article about the truth 2009/03/10 18:40:54 (permalink)
    The buck kill declined from 203,247 to 109,200 as of 2007. If you want to get more people involved give them more to hunt not more weapons to hunt with.
    #21
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    RE: Good article about the truth 2009/03/12 04:08:59 (permalink)
    Gee,
            I wonder why? I also wonder why small businesses are dust in the wind throughout the ANF and why there is such a housing bubble for hunting camps up there ? Maybe the banks shouldn't have lent money to people who actually wanted to hunt game?
    #22
    SilverKype
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    RE: Good article about the truth 2009/03/12 07:47:14 (permalink)
    I'll bet ya this years buck harvest is higher than 109K.  I don't know about yinzers, but we had snow the entire two weeks, compared to the previous year when it was rain and fog.   No acorns where I was.. all the deer were at the fields or up top.  Talked to a guy on private property.. they killed about a dozen good bucks below us.   I suspect next year will not be a good place for older bucks where I'm at.  I'm shootin' the first half rack three pt. that comes by. 

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    #23
    dpms
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    RE: Good article about the truth 2009/03/12 08:23:14 (permalink)
    Yes, I too believe the buck kill will be bumped up when the figures are relased in about a week.  Good conditions across much of the state. 
     
    Thing is this past season was the first year that every buck we killed was moving naturally.  Chasing does, feeding etc.... Was kinda neat hunting them that way instead of the usual running for their lives thing.  Pressure was way down in our area, Washington County.  Has been declining steadily.
     
    Pressure hunting can be exciting but what we experienced last season was way cool.

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    #24
    S-10
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    RE: Good article about the truth 2009/03/12 09:01:06 (permalink)
    I agree the buck kill should be up a bit after a lousy 2007 season and a near perfect 2008 season but it won't even be close to 200K and next year the kill will be back down again. The reason you are seeing unpressured bucks is because so many hunters are either giving up after a couple days of seeing nothing or didn't bother going out at all. It's better for those of us who are hard core but does nothing to keep the PGC solvent and reduces the number of voices to complain when they try to fold the PGC into the DCNR. Then we all will lose out. Giving the hunter who is having trouble finding a legal buck now a new weapon to be unsuccessful with will do little to increase participation.
    #25
    SilverKype
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    RE: Good article about the truth 2009/03/12 09:14:42 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: S-10

    I agree the buck kill should be up a bit after a lousy 2007 season and a near perfect 2008 season but it won't even be close to 200K and next year the kill will be back down again. The reason you are seeing unpressured bucks is because so many hunters are either giving up after a couple days of seeing nothing or didn't bother going out at all. It's better for those of us who are hard core but does nothing to keep the PGC solvent and reduces the number of voices to complain when they try to fold the PGC into the DCNR. Then we all will lose out. Giving the hunter who is having trouble finding a legal buck now a new weapon to be unsuccessful with will do little to increase participation.

     
    I heard people leaving the first day of rifle at 9:30.  Buck I shot this year was at 10:45 and he wasn't pushed.  Nobody was below me.  He was rutting.  I don't know, it seems hunter mentality has changed over the years .. they're impatient.  Even in archery season I hear people leaving at 9-9:30.  Must be in rush to get home to that computer.  I don't know.. 
     
    But I agree, less deer certainly has an affect on hunter numbers.  It seems to have had an affect on hunter mindset.  Knowing deer are there certainly keeps you there longer.

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    #26
    dpms
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    RE: Good article about the truth 2009/03/12 12:35:50 (permalink)
    The deer are here in 2A but folks just leave the woods early if they go at all.  I believe our crew saw more deer on the first Tuesday last year than the first day.  Natural movement. 
     
    I was standing at the base of my buddies treestand and we were talking.  I heard a buck grunting, getting closer, my buddy was ready but it was a spike dogging a doe right to us. 
     
    I heard a theory recently from someone that I have alot of respect for in the outdoor community.  Archery kill is going to increase, rifle kill is going to go way down due to lack of participation.  Archery and or rifle will be expanded to counter the decreased rifle kill?  I don't know but causes one to think anyway.

    My rifle is a black rifle
    #27
    SilverKype
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    RE: Good article about the truth 2009/03/12 12:47:58 (permalink)
    There were rumors flying around about an additional week of archery.   Not from what I'd consider a good source.   It was also a question brought up by Outdoor Times (or Outdoor News.. don't know which one).  Until participation drops substantially, I see the idea of three weeks in November a bad idea.   Someday, archery season will likely run from Sept - January but not anytime soon.

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    #28
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    RE: Good article about the truth 2009/03/12 13:07:30 (permalink)
    Of course out west they just introduced the  wolves to take care of the problem. I wonder if they will migrate East like the yotes did? Did I tell you about the semi-truck my uncles, brothers, neighbor saw broke down on I-80 last week. It had Montana plates and was carrying
    #29
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    RE: Good article about the truth 2009/03/12 13:38:06 (permalink)
    Actually, the bow hunters are taking a larger share of the better bucks now than the gun hunters when comparing number of 140+ entered in the state records with number of hunters in each catagory. Bow hunting is/was the way to go for your best chance at a good buck in Pa. Scope sighted crossguns give you the best of both worlds now. Rifle like accuracy in bow season, what could be better.
    #30
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