Inclusion passed 4/3

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dpms
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RE: Inclusion passed 4/3 2009/01/28 09:48:04 (permalink)
I am not naive to the fact that the legislature and other outside interest puts pressure on the PGC.  What I truly believe is that this BOC and the PGC weigh this factor along with many others including what is in the best interest of the wildlife of this state.

If the pressure is great on a particular issue, they will adress that issue as the see fit.  Some may be happy, others will not but I do not believe that any policy or regulation is driven strickly by outside pressue. 

To ignore outside pressure makes many enemies.  To address outside pressure shows a willingness to work together and that is what I believe has happened.  And political pressure is one of many factors that they  weigh.  The current BOC has stayed the course with AR and through HR despite intense outside pressures. 

As to Muldoon's comments.  I still find the statement filled with contempt and innuendo bordering on threatening.  I will fight with all that I am capable of to keep this agency as independent as possible and not support any policy or regulatory bills that the legislature drafts to force their will on the PGC's powers and duties.
post edited by dpms - 2009/01/28 09:50:12

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#31
dpms
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RE: Inclusion passed 4/3 2009/01/28 10:15:19 (permalink)
You could look at the 4 WMU split season as a good example.  I was against it at the time and I felt there was significant political pressue to do something.
 
The PGC looked at the issue, decided on 4 WMU's and a study that may turn out to benefit us all with increased doe tags potentially.  I was against it but they compromised and it seems to not have had much of a effect. 
 
If it does turn out that allocations can be increased with a 1 week antlerless season, may be a wash if crossbows add significantly to the antlerless harvest or could allow some more non-residents to aquire tags. 
 
Maybe it will go statewide at some point.  Who knows what the data will reveal, but I was against it.  Looking back now, the compromise seems acceptable instead of other options.
  

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#32
SilverKype
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RE: Inclusion passed 4/3 2009/01/28 10:25:50 (permalink)
This my favorite one:
 
The question has recently been asked that, considering the actions of the Board of Commissioners on the crossbow proposal, the recommendations of PGC Staff and the lack of science, biology, and means to accurately collect data is this not an effort to destroy an organization?
 
 
 
 
It is so ironic -- that the crossbow folks had only terrible things to say about bowhunters and the UBP.  Now, statewide, they'll be taking advantage of the fruits of their labor.  I guess the question that now deserves an answer, is, should the UBP continue to fight annually for the two weeks in November -- since a superior hunting tool has been introduced into the season they worked so hard for.
 
 
I now wonder what the PA Crossbow Federation is going to become.  Is it -- going to continue to have an out of state contact ? 
 
I also wonder -- who and how many crossbow hunters are going to step up and become an instructor to replace the guys that gone the whole thing started.
 
I can think of a few that should step up -- because of their mouth.   That won't happen. 
 
 

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#33
SilverKype
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RE: Inclusion passed 4/3 2009/01/28 10:39:27 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: dpms

You could look at the 4 WMU split season as a good example.  I was against it at the time and I felt there was significant political pressue to do something.

The PGC looked at the issue, decided on 4 WMU's and a study that may turn out to benefit us all with increased doe tags potentially.  I was against it but they compromised and it seems to not have had much of a effect. 

If it does turn out that allocations can be increased with a 1 week antlerless season, may be a wash if crossbows add significantly to the antlerless harvest or could allow some more non-residents to aquire tags. 

Maybe it will go statewide at some point.  Who knows what the data will reveal, but I was against it.  Looking back now, the compromise seems acceptable instead of other options.
 

 
There's a big difference here comparing this to crossbows.
 
 
Most hunters wanted more deer in those WMU's.
 
 
Most hunter did not want crossbows in archery.
 
62% of a 101,000 member organization opposed it.  There were four (4) crossbow 'hunters' at the headquarters Sunday.

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#34
fishscab
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RE: Inclusion passed 4/3 2009/01/28 10:44:10 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout

I TOLD YOU SO




 
Very adult reply there...Why not step up and start teaching the kids to shoot bolt-rifles...You could be the honorary president (Dolts with Bolts)..


I call """BS"""
#35
dpms
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RE: Inclusion passed 4/3 2009/01/28 10:45:31 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: SilverKype

It is so ironic -- that the crossbow folks had only terrible things to say about bowhunters and the UBP.  Now, statewide, they'll be taking advantage of the fruits of their labor.  I guess the question that now deserves an answer, is, should the UBP continue to fight annually for the two weeks in November -- since a superior hunting tool has been introduced into the season they worked so hard for.


I now wonder what the PA Crossbow Federation is going to become.  Is it -- going to continue to have an out of state contact ? 



 
Not all of those in favor of crossbow expansion or inclusion stooped to the level you claim.  There is plenty of blame to go around on both sides for hitting below the belt. 
 
I still support the UBP as a whole,  not very fond on some of the leadership at this point though.  I have defended the organization many times and will continue to do so. 
 
As to if they should continue to fight for the two weeks in November, I guess I would if I wanted to hunt it I would fight for it. 
 
The PCF is starting the application process for a board of directors.  I would assume that the organization will become home based but I am just guessing.  BTW, not a member myself. 

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#36
dpms
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RE: Inclusion passed 4/3 2009/01/28 10:48:02 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: SilverKype

There's a big difference here comparing this to crossbows.


 
Some difference yes, but I would imagine that many wanted a seperate three day doe season as was previous.

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#37
SilverKype
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RE: Inclusion passed 4/3 2009/01/28 10:56:46 (permalink)
I understand not all did dpms. 
 
You have to understand the majority of the BOD and the leadership of the UBP are traditional archers -- and I say that as 'recurve and longbow.'  The comments still fly around the organization about compound hunters using training wheels .. and cheating.   For some reason the vast majority of compound shooters are okay with that.  I accept and am perfectly fine with it.
 
 
Ed Wenzler said months ago that there will be some major relationship repairs that will need attention after this.  He was right on.

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#38
dpms
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RE: Inclusion passed 4/3 2009/01/28 10:59:59 (permalink)
I agree.  Many fences to mend.

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#39
dpms
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RE: Inclusion passed 4/3 2009/01/28 11:01:26 (permalink)
I sure hope Cal Dubrock got a fire lit under him to keep track of this thing and avoid the data debacle from October. 

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#40
SilverKype
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RE: Inclusion passed 4/3 2009/01/28 11:04:55 (permalink)
I don't understand how there is no crossbow data available today.  The checkbox has been on the harvest report card for a while now.  Perhaps the PGC has not compiled it.
 
I think the PGC will be loaded up with info. come 2012.
 

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#41
SilverKype
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RE: Inclusion passed 4/3 2009/01/28 11:13:38 (permalink)
A few things I didn't get to say before --- because doc trout would have emailed to the commissioners ... 
 
 
I would have loved to see Commissioner Isabella swear under oath that he'd never sell crossbows.  
 
Because he stated "I don't sell crossbows and don't intend to"  -- he should have been excluded from the vote.
 
For complete fairness reasons.    For those unaware here .. he owns a some type of store.  Don't know much about it though.  I heard it was geared toward Police eqiupment .
 
And drakes observation of Palone is accurate.   She did pay attention much of the time but spent plenty of time whispering in Carl Roe's ear.  Someone said she was actually flipping through a magazine during some of the testimonies.  I saw the flipping, but can't comfirm it was a magazine.
 
Mike Schmit and Delany seemed to be the most attentive.  Weaner was too far for me to see his eyes.
 
 
Now, trout, go ahead email it to the Commissioners.

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#42
bingsbaits
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RE: Inclusion passed 4/3 2009/01/28 11:23:54 (permalink)
Stopped at our local ARCHERY shop last night to shoot in the DART league..They are not going to sell or service arrowguns at the shop..Cutting off their nose to spite their face..But got to admire their resolve..He said they were an archery shop and will only deal with archery equipment...
post edited by bingsbaits - 2009/01/28 11:24:35

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#43
SilverKype
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RE: Inclusion passed 4/3 2009/01/28 11:28:38 (permalink)
Not many people put beliefs in front of money.   Next time you stop there tell them someone out there is very impressed !!!

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#44
dpms
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RE: Inclusion passed 4/3 2009/01/28 11:52:04 (permalink)
Impressed as well!!

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#45
DanesDad
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RE: Inclusion passed 4/3 2009/01/28 16:51:11 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: bingsbaits

Stopped at our local ARCHERY shop last night to shoot in the DART league..They are not going to sell or service arrowguns at the shop..Cutting off their nose to spite their face..But got to admire their resolve..He said they were an archery shop and will only deal with archery equipment...

 
I'll be impressed...if it lasts.
#46
thedrake
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RE: Inclusion passed 4/3 2009/01/28 16:53:39 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: SilverKype

And drakes observation of Palone is accurate.   She did pay attention much of the time but spent plenty of time whispering in Carl Roe's ear.  Someone said she was actually flipping through a magazine during some of the testimonies.  I saw the flipping, but can't comfirm it was a magazine.


 
It wasnt a magazine duud. It was a crossbow catalog.
#47
thedrake
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RE: Inclusion passed 4/3 2009/01/28 17:21:50 (permalink)
My thoughts on the issue....
 
I'm overall disapointed that crossbows are now going to be introduced.
 
I'm pleased that powered scopes arent allowed.
 
I'm concerned that archery season will be shortened eventually.
 
I've been trying to play out in my mind how many people this will bring into the archery woods this coming season. I don't personally know anyone who is even considering buying an xbow, but the guys who would arent my crowd.
 
I get the feeling there will be a high number of xbows purchased at first. Many of the guys who buy them will have the wrong idea about how easy it will be, and when they find out it's not going to be the same as rifle season and they do have to work to get a deer, the number of xbow hunters the following year will sharply decrease. Now before any of you guys say i'm calling xbow hunters lazy, let me clarify my comments.... Think of it this way, most of the guys who use the crossbows will be rifle hunters who are used to doing drives, and seeing lots of deer running back and forth past them all day. If you want to be successful in archery season, you cant rely on other hunters to push deer to you. This will be hard for a lot of guys to get used too.
 
 
#48
scaremypsu
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RE: Inclusion passed 4/3 2009/01/28 17:47:14 (permalink)
Could be right, time will tell.  Would be interesting to see how many people go out.  Have they decided if a stamp is require or some othere way to keep track of how many people are participating? 
#49
dpms
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RE: Inclusion passed 4/3 2009/01/28 18:39:59 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: thedrake

I get the feeling there will be a high number of xbows purchased at first. Many of the guys who buy them will have the wrong idea about how easy it will be, and when they find out it's not going to be the same as rifle season and they do have to work to get a deer, the number of xbow hunters the following year will sharply decrease. Now before any of you guys say i'm calling xbow hunters lazy, let me clarify my comments.... Think of it this way, most of the guys who use the crossbows will be rifle hunters who are used to doing drives, and seeing lots of deer running back and forth past them all day. If you want to be successful in archery season, you cant rely on other hunters to push deer to you. This will be hard for a lot of guys to get used too.



 
I agree with you.  I expect a quick jump, leveling off in a few years then slowly head down hill.  Just at a slower rate than previous hopefully.
 
These new participants will find out quickly that some effort and planning will be required to be successful on a regular basis.

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#50
dpms
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RE: Inclusion passed 4/3 2009/01/28 18:42:01 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: scaremypsu

Could be right, time will tell.  Would be interesting to see how many people go out.  Have they decided if a stamp is require or some othere way to keep track of how many people are participating? 

 
No stamp.  Not sure how they will track it though.  I guess new archery stamp sales will mostly be new crossbow participants but not sure how they will now how many switched from their current set-up to a crossbow.
 
Cal Dubrock and his team will have some pressure to get it right this time.

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#51
bingsbaits
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RE: Inclusion passed 4/3 2009/01/28 21:50:30 (permalink)
Seems kind of odd how this all played out..I was against Full Inclusion and thought with the vote we would all know one way or the other..
 
I have been reading alot on here and another site..Seems with Full Inclusion as it stands come many questions..
 
What to do with the Disability permit??  Is there still a need ? If not then the disabled would loose an advantage they could very well use...Or possibly under a new amendment to let permit holders use scopes there by needing to permit disabled hunters again.....
 
 
How will they track the use and the potential affect of crossbows??  Seems data collecting isn't the PGC's strong suit...
 
What if the number of new hunters is no where near their target numbers??? As others have said on here..Big turn out first couple years then a slow loss of hunters..
 
I personally don't think you will see more than 50,000 more archery tags sold the first year and declining from there...I think optics will become an enticer to get more involved when the numbers begin to decline down the road..
 
I sure hope and pray the Blue Army doesn't take them up in force..Archery season in Sparta township would be a big stinky poopoo....Mabee I'll have a talk with the "Red Gods" about that....
 
 
 
 
 
 

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#52
DanesDad
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RE: Inclusion passed 4/3 2009/01/28 22:47:57 (permalink)
Wouldn't an xbow be too "mechanical" for the strawhats?
#53
nightowl207
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RE: Inclusion passed 4/3 2009/01/28 23:23:25 (permalink)
ya right, you would think boom boxes, tvs, and telephones were to mechanical for them too.
#54
nightowl207
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RE: Inclusion passed 4/3 2009/01/28 23:32:14 (permalink)
I dont know if the blue army will gear up with xbows or not. They dont have the kind of time it requires to have a successful archery hunt. Hell, around my area (blue army basecamp), ive never even seen an amish in or going into the woods during archery season. They like to get into the woods in rifle season in large numbers and wipe 2-3 deer out a piece before lunchtime. They cant organize that kind of massacre armed with bows or xbows.
#55
bingsbaits
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RE: Inclusion passed 4/3 2009/01/29 07:34:55 (permalink)
They all archery hunt here...Kinda makes it tough hunting some times...



They do kill some monster bucks though..

Dane---You should see them when they go by my house every Sunday..You can here them coming 1/4 mile away..They have one of the buggies set up with some huge speakers and a pretty good power amp...
Kinda funny actually..
Crossbows would be allowed through out their whole community.....


post edited by bingsbaits - 2009/01/29 07:36:07

"There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
 
 


#56
S-10
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RE: Inclusion passed 4/3 2009/01/29 08:00:43 (permalink)
Every Amish I have ever seen hunting in Ohio over the years ( and I have seen quite a few) has been hunting with a crossbow. Their logic is quite simple--they are hunting for meat and crossbows are more effective for killing a deer than a compound. No reason to think it will be any different in Pennsylvania. Sorry Bings
#57
dpms
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RE: Inclusion passed 4/3 2009/01/29 08:29:03 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: bingsbaits

What if the number of new hunters is no where near their target numbers??? As others have said on here..Big turn out first couple years then a slow loss of hunters..

I personally don't think you will see more than 50,000 more archery tags sold the first year and declining from there...I think optics will become an enticer to get more involved when the numbers begin to decline down the road..

I sure hope and pray the Blue Army doesn't take them up in force..Archery season in Sparta township would be a big stinky poopoo....Mabee I'll have a talk with the "Red Gods" about that....


 
Bings,
 
You are starting to sound like me.
 
Anyway, I agree with S-10.  The blue army will be buying out those Hortons.

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#58
bingsbaits
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RE: Inclusion passed 4/3 2009/01/29 08:44:25 (permalink)

""Bings,

You are starting to sound like me. ""


 
All this darn debate and thinking be burning out my mind....
 
Time to grab an ice rod or the yote gun and go get some therapy....
 
 
 
 

"There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
 
 


#59
henhouse
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RE: Inclusion passed 4/3 2009/01/29 14:44:40 (permalink)
Since I don't have a X-bow and probably never will; I still have some questions that members of our hunting cabin are asking. They are older guys that may want to give it some consideration. Can you get a second shot from a tree stand if you miss the first? How do you **** it while in a climbing stand? Do you carry it to your stand in the cocked position?    My question is; does Pope and Young reconize deer taken with an X-bow as an archery killed deer? If not, then it's not archery hunting,is it? I've been around bow hunting for over 44 years; and the majority of people that had a desire to use one were just looking for the easy way to bow hunt without the need of practice. The PGC is in another desperation mode to try any gimic to bring in more dollars. Their minds were probably made up on the vote before the first person voiced their opinion.
#60
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