recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference

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S-10
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/16 10:31:15 (permalink)
Doc--you are also putting your own and as of late the PGC's twist on the role of the PGC and hunters. The PGC WAS NOT created to "use hunters to control the deer or any wildlife population". The agency was created to PROTECT the deer and wildlife from uncontrolled hunting thereby assuring their survival and to CREATE and MAINTAIN legal hunting opportunties. They didn't buy up all that land and plant food and cover crops to  control the deer population. They did it to INCREASE hunting opportunities. This new concept which you are helping to spread is the new brainchild of the enviromentalists and anti hunters to simply have hunters considered a necessary evil to be tolerated until they have the predator prey relationship where they want it. At that time we will no longer be needed and would be detrimential to any wildlife population if we were allowed to hunt. 
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SilverKype
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/16 10:37:16 (permalink)
 
 
Why did the PGC implement crossbows in the SRA's ?   Why did they increase season lengths?   To balance the herd .. that is exactly what carrying capacity is  -- Supply and demand.  That's what the PGC's mission is.. "manage" all wildlife. That's what HR is all about.    Who are you trying to fool ?  S & D most certainly is part of wildlife management. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Dr. Trout
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/16 11:29:06 (permalink)
S-10 ---
 
Okay that's what I thought..
 
#1.. you're still back in the days of Dr. Alt and that was over 8 years ago.. Dr Alt is gone... let him go in peace it's now 2009......
 
and #2....
PGC's stated goal of reducing pressure on the bucks

 
It is not and was not a stated goal of the PGC --- it is simply something Dr Alt "THOUGHT or HOPED would happen  .... and thus has nothing to do with today's thinking..
 
 
A person better not make anything a GOAL.. if it is based on what they THINK another person might or might not do.......
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S-10
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/16 12:58:04 (permalink)
8 Years Ago?????? Come on Doc, that's pretty weak.---- Alt retired effective Jan 1, 2005 and even at that he was only following the direction of his leaders who are still running the PGC and that was their stated objective, although I will admit they may have been lying to us..
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/16 13:27:33 (permalink)
Here is an article I found by searching 'reduce pressure on bucks.'
 
http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?A=11&Q=155970
 
Now, Gary Alt is quoted for saying it, but I don't think it's possible for us to determine if that was Alt's idea (only) or the PGC's.   Gary did a lot of the public speaking for AR/HR, but that doesn't necessarily mean he made the decision to 'reduce pressure on bucks.'   If the PGC didn't agree with it, I don't think he would have been saying it.
 
Ultimately, AR's purpose is to reduce pressure on bucks by moving 50% (or so) of th 1.5 year olds to the next age class.

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S-10
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/16 21:05:17 (permalink)
Is a crossbow the same as a bow. Lets see what the Pennsylvania game commission says about it.
 
Page 32 of the latest hunting Trapping Digest= Bow and arrow equipment definitions---Bow=A device for launching an arrow-the energy stored in the bend limbs of the bow is the sole result of a single continous pulling effort by the shooter.No track trough, channel, or other device capable of mechanically holding the bow at full or partial draw shall be attached to the bow.The bowstring must be drawn, held, and released by the shooter. release shall be accomplished by either relaxing the tension on the fingers or triggering the release action of a manually held release aid.
 
I guess if you can draw, hold, and release the arrow with nothing but your arm strength it fits the definition. Hummmmmm
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gobyking
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/16 21:08:03 (permalink)
Not this stuff again!!!!
 
I hate crossbows even more now, 4 pages worth. And the other threads 14 pages...
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/16 22:39:30 (permalink)
8 Years Ago?????? Come on Doc, that's pretty weak.---- Alt retired effective Jan 1, 2005 and even at that he was only following the direction of his leaders who are still running the PGC and that was their stated objective, although I will admit they may have been lying to us..

 
See how you're stuck way back then S-10.... Alt started his "talks" in 2000 and HIS message never changed up to his retirement... so it actually was 8 years
 
"his leaders who are still running the PGC""
 
 if you really knew what you were talking about you would know that is not true....
 
 
I can think of only about 2-3 people who were "his leaders" in 2000...that are still in those positions....
 
and ...even though I know most here will not believe this... BUT..
 
while Dr Alt was saying what he was saying... selling the program.. there were many in the PGC that did not agree with some of it....  and now they are running the show and making some changes....
 
#1 BIG change.... they dropped his deer per sqaure mile ..
 
and the one that REALLY upset a lot was his claim of 1.6 million deer at the time ....
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nightowl207
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/17 00:54:55 (permalink)
Rick,
 
I believe we agree with each other, but not on the string leaving the arrow theory. Their is more storage of energy with more stroke. I may be wrong but Ive read this in articles that proved to me to be true. Its kind of like: If you swing a maul with 100lb of energy with a 2' stroke, you dont get much penetration, but if you swing the maul from 6' with a 100lb of energy, the energy transfers further and splits the log. Im no master of physics, by no means am I telling you to believe it, but from my experience and readings Ive found this to be fact. Do we got any physics teachers on here that can back one of our theories up.
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sugarfuzz12
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/17 03:07:37 (permalink)
get over it dream on!
casts_by_fly
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/20 05:52:06 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: nightowl207

Rick,

I believe we agree with each other, but not on the string leaving the arrow theory. Their is more storage of energy with more stroke. I may be wrong but Ive read this in articles that proved to me to be true. Its kind of like: If you swing a maul with 100lb of energy with a 2' stroke, you dont get much penetration, but if you swing the maul from 6' with a 100lb of energy, the energy transfers further and splits the log. Im no master of physics, by no means am I telling you to believe it, but from my experience and readings Ive found this to be fact. Do we got any physics teachers on here that can back one of our theories up.

 
 
Night owl,
 
I've done a couple years of physics, have my engineering degree, and have taught it and tutored it if that helps any.
 
You are absolutely correct that a longer power stroke will translate into more energy.  With your example of the maul, the 2' stroke means that your muscles have had a 2' swing to add energy into the maul.  That would translate into a certain speed at the head of the maul.  If you take that same swing and make it 6' you have the same 2' swing and the same speed at the end of the 2' swing as you had before, but you also have another 4' of swing to add more energy to the maul (from your muscles).
 
The comparable analogy here is if you took a bow at 28" draw and shot it.  You've got a 28" power stroke (minus the brace height).  If you then extend the draw length out to 30" with the same arrow, you've still got that same 28" power stroke (minus the brace height) as before, plus the two inches you've just added of draw length.  That's why the same bow in a longer draw length will be faster.  It just has a longer power stroke.  The power stroke is simply the transfer of energy from the limbs of the bow to the arrow.  The stored energy is in the limbs and is transferred to the arrow during the power stroke, but not after (i.e. when the arrow leaves the string).
 
When you draw a bow, you create potential energy in the bow by flexing the limbs.  The power stroke is simply how that potential energy is transferred into the arrow.  As soon as you release the string the arrow starts moving forward.  The movement of the arrow is the transfer of potential energy stored in the bow into kinetic energy of the arrow.  That transfer will continue as long as the bow is pushing the arrow forward.  When the string comes to the brace height, it stops moving forward but the arrow continues and leaves the string.  This is where the total energy of the arrow becomes fixed.  The bow is no longer contacting the arrow and can exert no more force on the arrow.  At that point, the arrow becomes a projectile and is subject to the laws of ballistics.
 
A crossbow is identical to a bow from a physics standpoint.  The bow is drawn and energy is stored in the limbs.  The string is released and the energy is transferred from limbs to arrow.  The arrow leaves the bow and becomes a projectile.  Of course there are significant differences not captured int he physical model (which is what everyone argues about) but from a physical system standpoint, they are identical for energy transfer and modeling.  A crossbow has a shorter power stroke but a higher draw weight (thus much more energy stored in the limbs but less time to unload that energy).
 
The most important part for this conversation though, is that once the arrow leaves the string the bow has no more influence over it.  Physically it is impossible as they are not in contact.  The amount of energy that the arrow starts with is determined and fixed as soon as the arrow leaves the bow. 
 
A comparable analogy would be two rifles each shooting the same bullet.  Let's say you take a 308 win and a 30-06 Spr, each shooting a 150 gr bullet.  The 308 has a 26" barrel and the -06 has a 22" barrel.  The muzzle velocity of the bullets is a comfortable 2750 fps from each gun.  As soon as the bullet leaves the muzzle, the gun has no more influence over it.  Thus, both bullets in this case will have the exact same trajectory.  It doesn't matter that the 308 has a longer power stroke (and extra 4" of barrel to contain the pressure and push against the bullet).  Once the bullet leaves the muzzle the starting energy of the bullet is fixed.
 
Back to arrows, in this case we have a 425 gr bolt and a 425 gr arrow both going the same speed when they leave the bows.  The kinetic energy is the same for both and either of us can calculate it.  Both will loose energy with air resistance.  If they have the same fletchings and other components (that influence air resistance) then they will loose energy at the same rate.
 
Thanks,
Rick
 
 
Dr. Trout
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/20 09:40:49 (permalink)
casts..
 
very interesting post thanks.......
CrossForkWookie
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/20 11:13:33 (permalink)
My whole argument against X-bows does not revolve around the effective range of the bolt versus the arrow once it has left it's deliver point.  It involves what goes on to get to that point.
 
 
 
Archery hunting to me is defined by that precise moment when you have lured game within range and have to DRAW on the game.  Not just raising up your weapon to aim it but the actual draw itself. As anyone who has done it knows a million and one things can go wrong in this process...........and even after the draw where you are holding back and have limited time until physical fatigue takes place.  All of that forces you to be mentally sharp on when to draw on game in relation to where it is to your position.  The motion of the draw and duping your quarry at that precise moment.  Point click shoot is just that, shooting as you would with a gun.  It is not the same.  
 
It is the easy way out to saying you "archery hunt"......which is really a misnomer because X-bow shooting is not Archery hunting.   There is nothing anyone can tell me otherwise that will change my mind.  The way society is today, does it really suprise anyone that people want the easy way out in hunting too? 
 
Allow X-bows for general firearms season or inclusion into muzzleloader season  but don't tell me it's archery hunting.  Start calling it what it really is and that is X-bow shooting.
 
 
 
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dpms
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/20 11:38:21 (permalink)
Your point is taken CrossFork. 
 
Yes, at the moment of truth, a weapon held at the draw becomes a real advantage.  Is that enough to negate one's archery experience as being whole after that hunter puts in a tremdous amount of time into scouting and hunting?  To you maybe it is but is it not fair to let each hunter decide what their own archery experience is and not say that it is the "easy way out".
 
Look at what many current archers are using in equipment these days.  Laser rangefinders, ScentLok clothing etc....  These all allow shortcuts to a certain extent that one could call the "easy way out" as well. 
 
The archery experience has evolved with time and technology and we can all choose to stick to the basics or take advantage of the technology that is out there. 
 
 

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nightowl207
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/20 12:46:12 (permalink)
Most of the compound guys argue the "easy way out" theory. And X-bows are not archery equipment, that they are of new technology. X bows have been in history longer than compounds have. Any piece of equipment that stores energy in limbs, transfers it throught a string, and projects an arrow, is archery equipment. If you dont want people to have the easy wasy out, then how about this proposal: first four weeks of archery season, only recurves and longbows with no more or less than 2 fixed blades. The last 2 weeks, compound and crossbow gets included. Id go with that. If people are so worried about the effect on the herd, the first 4 weeks being recurve and longbow only will make up for the last 2 weeks of xbow/compound. 
nightowl207
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/20 12:51:16 (permalink)
Thanks for the lesson, cast by fly. I will stand corrected, but the difference in arrow length and weight does make a difference, right? And in your opinion, roughly, how much of a difference could it make on energy and speed loss over 20-30-40-50-100yrds?
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/20 12:56:31 (permalink)
Unfortunately nightowl, as the definition currently stands, a crossbow is not archery equipment.  Infact, crossbow records for this state go in with the rifle records, not archery.
 
One week from now you may be able to legally classify crossbows as archery equipment but not today.  ..  or perhaps you might be waiting a real long time.
 
 

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nightowl207
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/20 13:10:55 (permalink)
Im not saying thats the current legal definition, thats my definition.
SilverKype
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/20 13:26:12 (permalink)
okay and mine is that archery equipment doesn't involve a stock, a scope, internal ballistics..etc.
 
oh sheeshhh, I could go on for a long time. 
 
My opinion is as valuable as yours. 

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nightowl207
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/20 14:27:33 (permalink)
compounds do have a stock , its just not called a stock its called a riser. And many compound users use scopes, just as, many xbow users use pin sights. Internal ballistics? lol.  Your correct, our opinions are just as valuable to ourselfs. 
post edited by nightowl207 - 2009/01/20 14:31:00
SilverKype
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/20 14:33:38 (permalink)
A riser is a stock ?   You're gasping air now.
 
A stock with ability to shoulder it.
 
A scope with magification.

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nightowl207
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/20 14:42:12 (permalink)
They have compound bow SCOPES available in up to 8x magnification.  
 http://www.huntersfriend.com/bow-sights-archery/cobra-king-cobra-1-sight.htm
I know , personally, of 4 people that use them. 
post edited by nightowl207 - 2009/01/20 14:50:43
nightowl207
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/20 14:54:03 (permalink)
they also have pistol stock crossbows, you dont shoulder them. So that isnt a stock. You hold it in one hand , just like a compound.
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/20 14:58:42 (permalink)
8X huh?
 
You must have some "steady" friends.   Magnification doesn't work too well free-handed.    Sure is an advantage with a rest however.
 
Pistol stock crossbows ?
 
They popular ?  yikes.

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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/20 15:14:49 (permalink)
what do you mean, 8x huh? 8x, up to 8x magnifcation made for COMPOUND bows. Yes, crossbow pistols, you never heard of a crossbow pistol or compound scopes. Lift up the rock and take a look around every once in a while.
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/20 16:58:19 (permalink)
I tried a 6x glass for 3-D shooting...Would be real tough using one for hunting.....

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Dr. Trout
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/20 19:13:54 (permalink)
Well what do you know...FINALLY ----  something that I may be able to compromise on and support.....
 
then how about this proposal:
 
first four weeks of archery season, only recurves and longbows with no more or less than 2 fixed blades.
 
The last 2 weeks, compound and crossbow gets included. 

 
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/21 15:11:43 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: nightowl207

Thanks for the lesson, cast by fly. I will stand corrected, but the difference in arrow length and weight does make a difference, right? And in your opinion, roughly, how much of a difference could it make on energy and speed loss over 20-30-40-50-100yrds?



nightowl,

Yes, the weight of the arrow will play into it. A heavier arrow (moving slower) and a lighter arrow (moving faster) that both have the same energy to start will not loose speed at the same rate. The heavier arrow will carry its speed better than the lighter arrow. Length won't have much difference, only as much as it affects the aerodynamics of the arrow. In bullets a longer bullet has a higher BC because the profile disturbs the air less and slips through easier. However, in arrows the length is so much longer than the diameter that going from 24 to 30 inches isn't much of a change to the L/D ratio.

I couldn't begin to make a guess how much energy a given arrow will loose over distance. That is what computers are for and I don't have a program that calculates speed for arrows. That was why in the first post I made, I said that we have to assume what Matt has said is true. His numbers came through a modeling program.

Thanks
Rick
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/21 16:25:51 (permalink)
Hey Ricky!!!!
I heard you were overseas?  Where?  If so, what the hell you doing over there?  PM me.

Rick,
I hunt with my bow at 83#'s.  How do I figure out the foot pounds the arrow hits at?  Energy?  I've always been curious.

Ironhed
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/21 20:15:51 (permalink)
KINETIC ENERGY FORMULA

weight X velocity X velocity divided by 450,240
Take total arrow weight (ie. 540grains) multiply it by arrow velocity (Feet per second) (ie. 245fps) then multiply it by velocity again. Then divide it by 450,240 (In this example, your Kinetic Energy would be 71.99 foot pounds
 
 
http://home.att.net/~sajackson/archery2.html
post edited by bingsbaits - 2009/01/21 20:20:44

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