ORIGINAL: griffon

I guess the question(s) has to be asked.  What is too much?  Who decides what is too much?  With technology advancing, what would you expect performance in equipment to do? 

 
Good question Griffon.  Easy way out, I hear that alot.  But most if not all of us are using gadgets that some could argue allow us to cut corners.
 
Rangefinders, scent block clothing, pendulum sights, assualt crossbows, draw locs, etc....  One could argue they take the place of practice and preperation.
 
Where do we draw the line and who draws it?  I guess we put out faith in the professionals responsible for making those decisions by setting policy and regualtions.
 
I would not want to see opportunity lost for anyone because of technology, crossbows included. 

You DO throw the first stone trout.
 
The last time I even discussed something with you was when you were talking trash about the huntingpa.com folks wounding deer.
 
I have not said anything to you since, until now .. once again, because you are doing more bashing.
 
If you can't take the heat, don't light the match.

silver.. you just keep posting dumb stuff....
 
 
we were talking archery season and crossbows... you are the one that keeps bringing up rifles.. i.e. ---- changing the subject because you are losing the debate...
 

..so in other words trout, you support shortening rifle season to one week, to give crossbow hunters opportunity.

 
 
FYI.... crossbows were given that opportunity... without objections...they have been allowed in rifle season and that fact did not cause the rifle season to shortened and I have no doubt that allowing crossbow in rifle season will ever cause a shortening of the season...
 
If they  (PGC) do anything to rifle season I think they should add more opportunity for rifle hunters by adding more days to THEIR season...
 
other than changing the subject.... your point WAS ???????????????
 
we all know you want every possible day to harvest a deer with a bow...
 
the more days the better the odds.... the less the chance of NOT harvesting a deer..       screw the other guys ...I want every opportuntiy I can get ....         
 
 
I got your point about shortening the archery season....  


 

 
 
talk about confused ????
 
Hey silver.. you still here ?????


On October 29th at 12:30pm in a crossbow topic  you wrote ---- 

I don't have a problem with the archer that knows how to use the wind, scout, etcc... using an xbow.  They are just another archer in the woods. 

So why you singing a different tune now about crossbows ????????

http://www.huntersfriend.com/bowselection.htm
here is one with a ballistics chart
http://www.disabledrights.org/cases/OR_Report.rtf
http://www.hunting-fishing-gear.com/article-display/1737.html
i cant find the one i was reading, but these are interesting

ORIGINAL: nightowl207

to answer Rick's questions

To say something is accurate at a distance, does not say it is effective. The time it takes for the bolt to get to the target is the big issue (the noise from the shot will cause the animal to react and move your target before the bolt reaches it), another is the wind/breeze (which a slight breeze can throw an arrow off more than a foot at 100yrds), another is the arch of trajectory needed which can cause a misdeseption in a clear shot (if you have a nice clear shot through the scope the arrow may not). The Matt fella that gave the stats on the FPS and KE at those distances with both compound and the stryker are impossible, thats just physics. Because someone on here calculated from what "Matt's" stats were that it would take .8 seconds for the bolt to reach its target at 100yrds, We'll that IMO is completely impossible, it takes at least a complete second for my 312FPS-118ft.lb. KE (which is figured at point blank range with a bare arrow) crossbow to hit the target at 40yrds. Their telling me another 100fps at point blank range will make it hit a target at 100yrds in less than a second!, IMPOSSIBLE. I would like some Official statisics on this crossbow so that issue can be solved.

On the question about Xbow and bow energy loss. It is not a fact of what the energy is at point blank range, it is how much energy it stores. Which is where the powerstroke comes into play. The more powerstroke, the more energy it stores and holds throughout the distance. I had a non bias article up that had all the statistics of bows and xbows. It was a buyers guide to buying bows and xbows and had articles on the site about false marketing and how manufactures stretch the capabilities of their products. I try and find it again and post it.
 

 
 
I agree that an open shot with no wind at a stationary animal would all be requirements.  But (assuming the literature to be true) if I can hold a 3" group at a particular range I consider that good enough accuracy to consider taking the shot.  From there I have to consider all of the other factors whether I should take the shot.
 
The time calculations were based on the speeds given by matt.  If the speed at the target is 337 fps and it started at 405 fps, then it has been above 300 fps for its entire journey.  At 300 fps it would take 1 second to go 100 yards.  At 337 it would take 0.89 s.  Since we know that the bolt starts at 405 and ends at 337, then we know that the average speed MUST be somewhere between.  It will be slightly slower than the average between them, but the average (370 fps) is a good estimation point to start.  That's where the 0.8s came from.  Again, it assume that the 405 and 337 figures are accurate.
 
I don't normally question someone else gear or experiences, but I'd like for you to think about what you typed for a second.  You're saying that it takes a full second for your crossbow to go 40 yards.  Forty yards is 120 feet.  That means your bolts are doing 120 fps on average.  I think your time estimation may be a little off.
 
Lastly, as I said in my first post, one the arrow leaves the string, the bow has no more influence over it.  That means once the arrow leaves the string, the powerstroke of the bow has no more influence over the arrow.  Yes a compound will have a longer power stroke than a crossbow.  The crossbow makes up for it with higher draw weight.  When an 400 gr arrow leaves the bow at 300 fps it has 80 ft-lb of kinetic energy.  When a 400 gr crossbow bolt leaves a crossbow at 300 fps it has 80 ft-lb of kinetic energy.  Once each has left the bow, they will start with their 80 ft-lb energy and slowly bleed off their energy as aerodynamic drag losses.  Whichever one is more aerodynamic will loose less speed over distance.  Now if both the bolt and the arrow have the same fletchings, same broadhead, same diameter (and of course same weight) they will be essentially the same aerodynamically.  They will loose speed at the same rate.  The longer powerstroke of the bow doesn't help the arrow when it is 40 yards downrange.  The powerstroke helped the arrow to gain energy when it was attached to the string and that is it.
 
Thanks,
Rick

ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout

silver.. you just keep posting dumb stuff....


we were talking archery season and crossbows... you are the one that keeps bringing up rifles.. i.e. ---- changing the subject because you are losing the debate...

..so in other words trout, you support shortening rifle season to one week, to give crossbow hunters opportunity.

FYI.... crossbows were given that opportunity... without objections...they have been allowed in rifle season and that fact did not cause the rifle season to shortened and I have no doubt that allowing crossbow in rifle season will ever cause a shortening of the season...

If they  (PGC) do anything to rifle season I think they should add more opportunity for rifle hunters by adding more days to THEIR season...

other than changing the subject.... your point WAS ???????????????

we all know you want every possible day to harvest a deer with a bow...

the more days the better the odds.... the less the chance of NOT harvesting a deer..       screw the other guys ...I want every opportuntiy I can get ....         


I got your point about shortening the archery season....  

 
Are you willing to give up a week of rifle so other hunters can use a crossbow or what ? 

ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout

 

talk about confused ????

Hey silver.. you still here ?????


On October 29th at 12:30pm in a crossbow topic  you wrote ---- 

I don't have a problem with the archer that knows how to use the wind, scout, etcc... using an xbow.  They are just another archer in the woods. 

So why you singing a different tune now about crossbows ????????

 
 
 
 
How is that changing my tune ?

Reading over your posts trout it doesn't seem you have any concept of supply and demand.
 
Let's just make any hunting tool season from Sept - January.    That'd work just fine.

Sure, go ahead, and I will too.

Thanks for making my point.   The season is being threatened.
 
 
.... page 27
 
http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/lib/pgc/PDF/october_minutes_2008.pdf
 
 
Roxane said -- "We heard a lot of things from Cal yesterday.  He doesn't believe that we would have to shorten the season if we implement crossbow, at least for two years."
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
"

ORIGINAL: SilverKype

Roxane said -- "We heard a lot of things from Cal yesterday.  He doesn't believe that we would have to shorten the season if we implement crossbow, at least for two years."

 
Yep, exactly what she said.  I guess if that is one option of many it is fair to say that there is some threat.
 
It is also fair to say that that option would be the last option. 

ORIGINAL: S-10

It looks like they have no concern about the antlered season or harvest. Instead as always they concentrate on controlling the doe population. Except for a very few like Doc who profess to be content with a doe or BB MOST hunters are after the bucks and the bucks will feel the brunt of the extra pressure. Alts goal was supposed to be to take the pressure off the bucks. I fail to see how increasing the number of hunters, hunting with a more efficient weapon for a long period of time is compatable with the PGC's stated goal of reducing pressure on the bucks. Sounds more like crossbows manufactures lobbyists money at work.

The crossbow guys say AR will protect the buck population.

How do you feel about that ?

 
 
S-10 ----
 

PGC's stated goal of reducing pressure on the bucks

 
 
by reducing pressure..
 
Do you mean allowing more bucks to reach 2.5 year old and older to establish a better age structure in the deer herd ????
 
 
 
 

silver..
 

Reading over your posts trout it doesn't seem you have any concept of supply and demand.

 
there you have the ENTIRE "deer wars" thing in a nut shell.....
 
one hunter against the other on many issues... doe harvests.. allocations...size of WMUs.. crossbows.. in-lines....etc etc
 
and just what is the problem you ask ???
 
Look at what he wrote....  SUPPLY AND DEMAND.....
 
now any sportman KNOWS that those two words have NO PLACE in the world of Wildlife Management....
 
especially in the sense of a demand for deer to shoot and a supply of them to satisfy that desire....
 
He wants the PGC to SUPPLY enough deer to fill his DEMAND for harvesting deer and wants as much time (season length) to do just that... SELFISH !!!
 
But unforunately that is not the duty of the PGC or any wildlife managemnt unit...
 
They use hunters to meet their goals for controlling the population of the deer herd....(not supplying deer to meet a hunters demand) .they have a duty to make sure they maintain a HUNTABLE deer population.....  there is NOTHING there about meeting hunters' demands.....
 
Supplying enough deer to fill hunters demands is not a goal of the PGC or any wildlife unit I am aware fo anywhere.............
 
SORRY  ----- but the truth is the truth ..
 
the PGC is not in businees to supply deer and meet demands of deer hunters..............