S-10
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference
2009/01/15 06:29:34
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Lobbyist money and politicans at work not just in Pennsylvania 
Crossbows and Bowhunting in Wisconsin
Crossbows continue to threaten Wisconsin’s archery deer hunting seasons.
Although they are allowed as archery equipment in a growing number of states, we have been successful so far in retaining Wisconsin’s archery season for archery equipment, except in cases where crossbows are allowed in the archery season for the handicapped and elderly.
Combating this threat to archery seasons has been a unique challenge because there isn’t a large user-group of crossbow owners requesting a crossbow hunting opportunity. Those promoting crossbows, specifically the crossbow manufacturers and “our own†Archery Trade Association, have spent millions of dollars over the last several years trying to convince the public that crossbows are effective hunting tools and hunters deserve an opportunity to use them. That wouldn’t have been a big problem for most hunters, except that from the start, this group’s objective has been to force them into archery seasons as archery equipment because that’s where they could sell the most crossbows and where the most money could be made. There has never been much concern about what that would do to bowhunting as we know it.
When bowhunters have objected, the crossbow folks have become pretty effective in then portraying us as selfish elitists and “anti’sâ€, against additional hunting opportunity and equipment.
Unfortunately, these marketing campaigns have been paying off, and even in Wisconsin there is a growing attitude that crossbows are extremely effective hunting tools and hunters should be able to use them. However, most of the Wisconsin hunters that share that attitude also understand what crossbows would do to our archery season and don’t really want to see that either.
One reason the ATA, crossbow manufacturers and the magazine/organization they subsidize have been successful is that they have been patient and relentless in analyzing each state’s weakness and ways to take that state’s bowhunters out of the discussions. They have signed “Memorandums of Understanding†with several state DNR’s (not Wisconsin) where they, not the state bowhunting groups, become the official point of reference on bowhunting issues. In return they facilitate “grants†and other money. In some states they go directly to the Natural Resources Commissions, and in others they find a politician that tries to sneak it through the legislature. In Wisconsin they have found an opportunity with turkey and bear hunting. Because turkeys and bears can be hunted with bows, muzzleloaders or modern firearms at the same time and places, there is considerable public sentiment building that it’s “only fair†that crossbows should also be allowed for those that want to use them instead of one of the other weapons. If bowhunters object, so much the better for the crossbow promoters, because they can again have us dismissed as selfish and unreasonable, trying to prevent hunters from using crossbows when they could have used a gun instead.
Fortunately in Wisconsin our hunting and conservation groups are well informed, communicate, and understand the big picture. The Wisconsin Bear Hunters and the Wisconsin Chapter of the National Wild Turkey Federation have been directed by their members to pursue this additional opportunity, but many of their members are also bowhunters. And these members and the leadership of these and other state organizations are also very concerned about doing anything that would “screw up†Wisconsin’s archery deer seasons.
Wisconsin Bowhunters Association has worked with the Wisconsin Bear Hunters Association, the Wisconsin Chapter of the National Wild Turkey Federation, the Wisconsin Wildlife Federation and others to craft a solution that satisfies the wishes of their memberships, while at the same time strengthens our united position against the expanded use of crossbow for deer hunting in the archery deer seasons, which is our objective.
While there are critical components to it, the concept has generally been referred to as the “lesser weapon†approach.
In a nutshell is says: First and foremost, that crossbows be recognized as a distinctly different and superior weapon to archery equipment, and that, based on that classification, crossbow use be allowed in all seasons where a superior weapon such as a muzzleloader, rifle/pistol and shotguns are allowed. As a superior weapon crossbow use would be specifically prohibited for deer hunting in archery seasons except as now permitted for the handicapped and elderly.
This approach would accomplish several important things:
It legally defines crossbows in Wisconsin as a different and superior weapon to archery equipment.
It builds a statewide, cross-discipline coalition of hunting and conservation organizations that are on record against any expanded use of crossbows for deer hunting in Wisconsin’s archery deer seasons.
It resolves the issue our fellow hunting organizations, (the Wisconsin Bear Hunters and the Turkey Federation) are facing over allowing crossbow use for bear and turkey hunting that their members have requested, while still supporting and protecting bowhunting.
It provides literally months of hunting opportunity during bear seasons, turkey seasons and deer firearms seasons for those that want to hunt with crossbows, while protecting the deer-archery seasons for archers.
It expands bowhunting opportunities into superior weapons seasons; in some cases where it has not been available in the past.
It shows that bowhunters aren’t against hunting opportunity or effective hunting equipment – just changes that would significantly alter the archery-deer hunting seasons. If the crossbow lobby says they don’t want this (which is very possible) because they want the deer-archery season instead, it will finally expose who is really selfish here.
Finally, it buys time. The crossbow situation is changing. Crossbow performance has been downplayed for years in order to maintain a resemblance to archery equipment, in order to get them into archery seasons. However now that more people are buying and using modern crossbows, these folks are discovering, and talking about, crossbows amazing accuracy and long-range capabilities. And because more crossbows are being sold across the country, competitive forces are starting to kick in. Because new crossbows are drawn with a winch and braced across a high-strength stock, the technology already exists to build 500 lb. or even 1,000 lb. hand-held crossbows with performance characteristics that are hard to even imagine. The new Bowtech Stryker is an example of where crossbows are heading. In a few years, once crossbows start doing to “archery†seasons what in-line rifles so quickly did to primitive muzzleloader seasons, I’m sure many states will be regretting that they were so quick to change their archery seasons into crossbow seasons.
It’s significant to note that this proposal doesn’t preclude crossbow hunters from working to develop a separate crossbow season in the future, just as muzzleloader hunters and even archers did in the past. But instead of a national marketing campaign, it would be based on a valid user group in Wisconsin working in good faith with all the other user groups that are already established, and it would be for a distinctly different and superior weapon to archery equipment. In order to define actual crossbow use and harvest, part of this proposal also requests that the DNR establish a weapon designation on all gun-deer, bear and turkey registration stubs, and that all handicapped and elderly hunters that qualify to use a crossbow throughout the archery seasons be issued a special crossbow permit and registration stub instead of an archery license.
In 2005 Wisconsin defeated a proposal to allow crossbows for bowhunting in the archery hunting seasons, thanks in large part to the many WBH members that actively participated in the process and helped to correctly define the issues to the public. Our position at that time was to oppose all expanded crossbow use by anyone even if it didn’t apply to the archery season. It was a clear position that was probably right for the time, since then those promoting crossbows had learned how to turn that type of position around and use it against us.
So, in order to be able to support the lesser weapon approach and further strengthen the position against crossbow use as archery equipment in the bowhunting seasons, the Board of Directors has voted to revise the position from 2005 to further strengthen our objective: keeping expanded crossbow use for deer hunting out of the archery deer seasons.
We will continue to work with other hunting and conservation organizations over the next several months to build a widespread base of support for a lesser weapon proposal that enhances protection of Wisconsin’s archery-deer seasons from expanded crossbow use.
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casts_by_fly
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference
2009/01/15 07:23:08
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ORIGINAL: nightowl207
Still this crossbow would not be able to effectively kill at those ranges. Its hard enough to guess what range an animal is below 35-40yrds let alone 100- yrds. And knowing what range the target is very crucial to the accuracy of any weapon, exspecially a crossbow. I do have a crossbow, the one i have claims 60yrd accuracy 320fps 114ft, I have shot it many of times and have lots of practice and I still would even take a chance at an animal beyond 30yrds. At 45yrds, on a very calm day, shooting off a rest, it can hold an 10ingroup, do you think that is accurate enough to take an ethical shot at a deer? I dont. I wont even try shooting it at 60yrds at a target because I dont wanna lose $10 a piece arrows down throught the trees. Now at 30yrds I can hold a 2-3inch group off a rest (which i can do better than that with my late80's Jennings compound), but after that, to much affects the bolt. This product IMO, sounds like the company is advertising it to be a professional deer wounder. Because just throwing statements out ,like they are, about its accuracy and speed at 100yds, they are encouraging a bunch of disrespectful ignorant hunters to try and schling an arrow at that animal at that distance when the bow is probably not near as capable as they make it out to be. Also the number that the Matt fella threw out about the speed and energy both bows hold out to one hundred yrds, that is not believable. Sounds to me just like numbers off the top of his head, not proven statistics. Crossbows lose most of their KE at 30yrds, compounds lose most of theirs at 40yrds. A compound holds its Kinetic energy longer because of the powerstroke length they have. I cant say Im for legalizing crossbows, not because I think they will have a higher success rate of killing an animal (because I dont think it would), but because it would cause a higher wound rate which is worse. If hunters nowadays had a little respect for the animal and companies wouldnt claim outragious capabilities I think it would be be fine to legalize them. Theres to many A-holes in the woods taking unethical shots with rifles let alone bows and crossbows. To give the trigger fingered hot heads in the woods one of these things well have to have an early rifle seaon to go out and shoot all the gang green wounded deer.
Nightowl, Two questions to your post. If the crossbow in question (the Stryker) can hold 1" groups at 100 yards, why wouldn't it be effective at killing at that range? It has plenty of energy and weight to penetrate. If it can hold a 3" group at 100 yards, that is more than enough to justify thinking about the shot. At that point it is just whether you have a clear shooting lane and the animal is in a position to make the shot (relaxed, not moving, etc). Range estimation should not be a factor because if you intend to shoot at that range you should be using a range finder or have premarked the yardages. Second, once the arrow/bolt leaves the string there is no difference between a bow and a crossbow as to loosing energy. Any difference will come as the effective ballistic coefficient of the bolt/arrow. The powerstroke will determine how fast the projectile comes off the equipment, but doesn't relate at all to downrange speed. if you have a bow shooting 300 fps and a crossbow shooting 300fps (with the same weight arrow and same broadhead/fletching) they will have the same trajectory and energy. The only slight difference you might have is in the length of the bolt/arrow affecting the effective BC, but there won't be much difference. Thanks, Rick
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Dr. Trout
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference
2009/01/15 10:26:38
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SilverKype
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference
2009/01/15 10:50:17
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Keep spewing crap trout. I like how you side step the real issue by spewing compound crap. I think it's about time I come spew some crap on your site. I've had about enough of anti-archer attitude.  I don't see you posting talking with Matt about xbows. That's because everyone knows he's right about xbows and their danger in archery. http://www.huntingpa.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=954011&fpart=1 With a shortened archery season and less doe tags available, hunter retention may take a bigger hit than crossbows can make up. PGC better watch their step.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference
2009/01/15 11:51:05
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I don't see you posting talking with Matt about xbows Who the hell is Matt ???? what's his username here ???? I don't know who you are talking about.. I love the fact that my opinion is "crap" and yours is .... just what is the stuff you post.. it must be your opinion.. i.e. --- your crap..... as for my board ---- I'll toss you faster than you can apply for membership if you don't follow the rules..... and the post above calling another's opinion crap...would get you tossed....  BTW.. I am not anti-archer as you claim.... most archers do not have the attitude alot like you have.. you're sepcail.... The truth is I just can't STAND you guys who think you are so Great because you use a compound.... you're no better than anyone else.. and that's a FACT.. not crap.... to imply you are any better is the real CRAP !!!!
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2009/01/15 11:54:09
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Dr. Trout
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference
2009/01/15 12:34:58
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Here's some info for those so intent on bashing me.... I come and express my opinions and why I feel the way I do.. I get lots of E-mails and PMs from folks here that do not want to subject themselves to the same bashing . but agree with much of what I say here... and enjoy the debates that some of us have with respect for each other... that's not many but I have to admit there are a few that can actually debate a subject without insults and bashing.... anyhow.... what I tell folks is nothing will get solved on a website or message board.. take a minute and write an E-mail to those making the decisions... If you like crossbows for example write to the commissioners and legislators expressing your thoughts.. I PROMISE you will not get anything back that is insulting or bashing.... they will respect your opinions and may agree or they may even share why they disagree.. trying to even talk to many here is useless.... and forget any style of debate.. it's a ****in contest to many.... and by bashing they expect some like me to quit posting thus only presenting one side of a story .. THEIRS..... here's an example of a PM... I see they're ganging up on ya doc
It's funny, you throw numbers & stats at them that are facts, then they call them your opinions. They throw their opinions at you with nothing to back them up, and act like it's fact. At least it's good for a laugh.
---------------------------------
You're wasting your time (as I often do ), with these knuckleheads.
Notice most of them fear change of ANY kind.
So that's what many of you are providing.. a GOOD LAUGH HAPPY NEW YEAR !!!
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2009/01/15 12:43:05
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SilverKype
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference
2009/01/15 12:45:48
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I didn't say others opinions were crap. I said YOURS is crap. No one can ever talk about anything on here without your crap... such as xbows.. You gotta degrade archers every chance you get wounding, they're selfish, sepcail, etc... you just can't listen. No hope..  How about you focus on the actual point for once and stop YOUR CRAP.
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SilverKype
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference
2009/01/15 12:48:27
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Numbers and stats ??
Let's see it.
Resort to PM ??
LOL
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SilverKype
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference
2009/01/15 12:52:24
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trout I've been talking with commissioners for years about various topics. I'm respectful when it's deserved. You're comments above do not deserve respect. They are CRAP.
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dpms
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference
2009/01/15 12:54:28
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Hey Silver,
Do you know what the UBP's current position is on the issue? Seems to change alot as of late from what I am hearing.
No way no how?
Get the legislature involved?
Support crossbows with a stamp and season?
Rethinking?
Are we back to no way no how?
Mind you I have defended them alot while engaging pro-inclusion supporters but as of late I don't know if they have a firm stance yet.
My rifle is a black rifle
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SilverKype
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference
2009/01/15 12:54:36
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ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
from the artilce S-10 posted ---
When bowhunters have objected, the crossbow folks have become pretty effective in then portraying us as selfish elitists and “anti’sâ€, against additional hunting opportunity and equipment. I have not heard anyone refer to the compounders that are complaining about crossbows as "anti"- hunting.. I do not believe they are .... they are just anti-crossbows for the reasons listed.. they are being selfish, they think of themselves as "special" (elitists) because they shoot a compound they are better than anyone else, they are against additional hunting opportunties for others,(except handicapped people..that even sounds elitists just typing it This IS CRAP !!!!!!! If you'd actually listen for once, you'd see why archery gripe about xbows and not assume they don't want anothers to have opportunities.
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SilverKype
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference
2009/01/15 12:57:34
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dpms
Last I saw was the article in Pittsburgh post where Muldoon said something about a crossbow stamp or season. I think ? I don't know where it went from there.
I talked with him last night but haven't been updated with UBP's actual position lately. I figure I'll get to hear it January 25.
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SilverKype
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference
2009/01/15 13:05:55
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D
You heard the UBP wants to get legislation involved ?
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Dr. Trout
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference
2009/01/15 13:11:01
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Silver .. maybe if you would read before you post.. you'd do better... here is a statement DIRECT from the article that started this thread... the crossbow folks have become pretty effective in them portraying us as selfish elitists and “anti’sâ€, against additional hunting opportunity and equipment.
So it appears I am just doing what the author said --------- many of us are doing ....giving our opinions... and as he suggests...... we are getting pretty effective (good) at it... and it is being heard by the decision folks.... notice he NEVER says it is CRAP.... because it isn't.... and that's why he does not call it crap.... it's our opinions and they are being HEARD !!!! So contrary to you suggestion ----- How about you focus on the actual point for once and stop YOUR CRAP I am still on topic....  To suggest that just because someone may choose a crossbow means he is lazy.. will wound more deer... is unethical... is any less of a sportsman... will try 100 yard shots... You do not know if any of that is true..... they're your assumptions at best... NOW that is some real CRAP ..
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2009/01/15 13:18:24
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SilverKype
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference
2009/01/15 13:14:18
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oh I read it..
and I read where you wrote
they are being selfish,
they think of themselves as "special" (elitists) because they shoot a compound
they are better than anyone else,
they are against additional hunting opportunties for others,(except handicapped people..that even sounds elitists just typing it
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SilverKype
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference
2009/01/15 13:15:54
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SilverKype
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference
2009/01/15 13:19:21
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ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
To suggest that just because someone may choose a croosbow means he is lazy.. will wound more deer... is unethical... is any less of a sportsman... will try 100 yrad shots... NOW that is some real CRAP
Show me where I said that ?? I see you edited your post. I caught your comment. Perhaps you should start smoking again trout .. you're awfully edge--eeeeee.
post edited by SilverKype - 2009/01/15 13:24:36
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SilverKype
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference
2009/01/15 13:24:02
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Dr. Trout
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference
2009/01/15 13:29:58
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Typical --------- no facts.. just CRAP.... WHY DID YOU NOT --- re-copy the start of the sentence I wrote.... I was giving MY opinion.... here's the part you did not copy.... they are just anti-crossbows for the reasons listed..
Then I give a list ---- PLEASE at least try to be somewhat fair in your personal attacks..... If you are going to copy something I wrote PLEASE copy the whole sentence.... see... you would NEVER last on my board.. posting things out of context is also a NO-NO over there....... The facts and figures was dealing with deer..... JUST IN CASE YOU DID NOT KNOW IT ---- there are no facts or figures about crossbows and their effect in PA.... well that's not exactly true either... there are some about the special reg areas and so far they do not support the claims of " what will happen" you complainers are presenting.. There are facts and studies from other states they have already been mentioned and you guys opposed to crossbows just read over them like they mean nothing...
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2009/01/15 13:32:17
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SilverKype
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference
2009/01/15 13:34:18
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okay.
they are just anti-crossbows for the reasons listed..
they are being selfish,
they think of themselves as "special" (elitists) because they shoot a compound
they are better than anyone else,
they are against additional hunting opportunties for others,(except handicapped people..that even sounds elitists just typing it
Still CRAP trout. Your opinion is crap !!!!!
I've already tried to explain the last one, and you just don't get it.
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SilverKype
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference
2009/01/15 13:36:17
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I did know there is no data for PA. I also know that Ohio does not have a high powered rifle season and their shotgun season is 9 days long. Less than half our hunters. Keep comparing apples to oranges.
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SilverKype
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference
2009/01/15 13:37:26
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It would be very upsetting if I signed into your board and got kicked off. 
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Dr. Trout
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference
2009/01/15 13:39:01
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I never singled out anyone person when I referred to who said being lazy.. slobs etc etc... but go back and read the threads here about crossbows.. those remarks find their way into almost everyone of them and since you do not post you disagree with those .. I figured you agreed..
So you saying you DO NOT think....
crossbow hunters will be lazy hunters as for practice etc.. ???
they will try 100 yard shots.??
there're won't be more wounded deer ????
It won't effect your season length ???
They are not as skilled as a compound users ????
If you do not agree with what others are using as excuses against crossbows.. why do you oppose them then ???????????????
Just what is your opposing opinion ??????????
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Dr. Trout
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference
2009/01/15 13:42:51
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I also know that Ohio does not have a high powered rifle season and their shotgun season is 9 days long. Less than half our hunters. what does that have to do with crossbows or this thread ???? need some toilet paper ???? If my opinioin is crap then so is yours... so we are both full of it......... and should stop posting here.......at least we agree on something ~~~~~~~ 
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2009/01/15 13:43:42
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SilverKype
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference
2009/01/15 13:54:37
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You did single me out trout. You just use that edit button a lot.
My concern is season length and opportunity.
While you think archer's are selfish because they are against additional opportunities (for a reason you apparently don't understand), you are also taking opportunity away from others by supporting xbows in archery season .. if the season gets shortened and doe tags are more limited.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference
2009/01/15 14:06:31
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Last one Silver ----- you wrote --- If you'd actually listen for once, you'd see why archery gripe about xbows and not assume they don't want anothers to have opportunities.
Okay ---- so answer this if you are not against others having an opportunity... By adding crossbows ----- 1... it would ADD another type of weapon for a hunter to choose from in archery season and thus an opportunity to hunt with a crossbow in ADDITION to his/her compound or recurve .. 2... rifle hunters who do not now hunt during archery season could be ADDED thus giving them an opportunity to hunt early fall 3... older hunters that are not disabled would have an opportuntiy and be ADDED to the early fall deer hunting by using a crossbow.. there's more but I want to prove my point... So .. silver.... you are in favor of allowing these hunters the opportunity to hunt with a crossbow in archery season and ADD that weapon to their arsenal ???????
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bingsbaits
Pro Angler
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference
2009/01/15 14:06:43
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Hypocrisy----Doing something on one board and not allowing it on your own...
Doc can't you just have a simple discusion with out it getting into a ****ing match..
You notice I no longer respond to most of what you post..Some one has to step up and be above all the ****ing and name calling.Quess that will have to be me as you seem to thrive on the attention your arguements create.....You are just as guilty as the rest..
"There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
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SilverKype
Pro Angler
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference
2009/01/15 14:11:35
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My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
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SilverKype
Pro Angler
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference
2009/01/15 14:16:25
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ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
Last one Silver -----
you wrote ---
If you'd actually listen for once, you'd see why archery gripe about xbows and not assume they don't want anothers to have opportunities.
Okay ---- so answer this if you are not against others having an opportunity...
By adding crossbows -----
1... it would ADD another type of weapon for a hunter to choose from in archery season and thus an opportunity to hunt with a crossbow in ADDITION to his/her compound or recurve ..
2... rifle hunters who do not now hunt during archery season could be ADDED thus giving them an opportunity to hunt early fall
3... older hunters that are not disabled would have an opportuntiy and be ADDED to the early fall deer hunting by using a crossbow..
there's more but I want to prove my point...
So .. silver....
you are in favor of allowing these hunters the opportunity to hunt with a crossbow in archery season and ADD that weapon to their arsenal ???????
If it's going to take away opportunity from existing season .. no way. Rifle season, archery season, ML, or flintlock shouldn't have to be altered to fit in the crossbow. The crossbow already has 5 and half weeks to hunt..
My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
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Dr. Trout
Pro Angler
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RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference
2009/01/15 14:41:42
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See that's where the selfish part comes in..... and it's NOT just me that thinks that... what you are basically saying is you THINK your season will be shorten.... that's not happened anywhere else in other states... and you have no way of knowing if it will.. but the the idea of losing a few days drives you up a wall.... you do not want to share the woods with anyone !!!!! Where was all the small game hunters complaining when they had to share more and more of their season with archery hunters.. clean up into Novmber now..... it was NOT there ....they were not selfish.. they shared.. I do not even hear them complaining about the early muzzie season.. it's just alot of the bowhunters complaining about small game hunters ruining their hunt... muzzie spooking all the deer... and now crossbows will shorten my season....and it will give someone else a chance at shooting my deer..... just plain selfish reasons ------------------------------------- as for you bing.... once again you must not have read the topic.... there was NO ****ing going on until this showed up after I posted my opinion Keep spewing crap trout Now you added your pee to the topic rather than post anything worthwhile... holly heck.. you can't let silver get ahead in bashing trout... scab and the rest will now join in... the posts on my board do not have ****in because I throw out the first one to do so... that way no one need to feel they have to **** back.... it's simple.... they ought to try it here..... I rarely throw the first stone butI am quuick to reply when ****ed on I respond with the same especially here .... becuase it is allowed .... and it keeps this board active and FUNNY.... and thus is encouraged by many.. to prove my point ... I'll take my ball and go home.. see how active this gets.... It's not a matter of bing not responding TO ME for awhile.. I stopped responding here as a whole for a while... If I don't post he has nothing to write about..... especially once someone starts ****in........... 
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