recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference

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2009/01/13 09:40:27 (permalink)

recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference

Got this off Doc's site-- PSE claims 80-100 yard accuracy.
 
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    SilverKype
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    RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/13 10:54:27 (permalink)
    Yep, the new PSE.  Ability to convert to an AR-15.
     
     

    My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
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    gobyking
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    RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/13 12:06:14 (permalink)
    That is a new crossbow out this year at the ATA show that is touted as having 1" accuracy at 100 yards(right from the reps mouth). I might buy one and lay down in a big field with a ghille suit on. That way I can still be called an archer and still get in on the rut since they always get the prime hunting dates.
     
     
    This item also is taking some heat from crossbow supporters, it seems that it is a little too much and may influence the decision of full crossbow inclusion in PA. Good timing, I hope it fails. 
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    griffon
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    RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/13 12:16:30 (permalink)
    I guess the question(s) has to be asked.  What is too much?  Who decides what is too much?  With technology advancing, what would you expect performance in equipment to do? 
     
     
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    S-10
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    RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/13 13:31:41 (permalink)
    The PGC and many others say the average rifle kill in Pa. is at less than 100 yards. This compound claims 1" groups out to 100 yards. I say make them legal---------IN RIFLE SEASON.
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    SilverKype
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    RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/13 14:02:05 (permalink)
    Hate to disappoint but as it stands now, I believe this thing is already legal where xbows are legal now.
     
    Here are the specs:
     
    Specs:
    Speed = 412fps
    Arrow Weight = 425grs
    Kinetic Energy = 160ft lbs
    Peak draw Weight = 170#
    Mass Weight = 8.3llbs
    Axle to Axle = 16 3/4" at brace and only 11 3/4" at full draw
    Powestroke = 17 1/4"
    Locktime = 12 milliseconds from trigger to bolt release

    My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
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    S-10
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    RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/13 14:15:28 (permalink)
    Griffon wrote=With technology advancing, what would you expect performance in equipment to do? 

     
    Right now it is possible to set up a bait station, locate your trail cameras, setup your crossbow on a swivel run by battery or other means, hookup the camera to your computer, sit at home or work monitoring the camera and electronically position your crossbow or rifle, and kill your buck or turkey from the comfort of your own home or work. Daniel Boone would be proud. 
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    bingsbaits
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    RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/13 14:21:42 (permalink)
    That's cool we can use our high houses for archery now....
    Pretty awesome looking weapon....
    That makes two high end arrow guns that will shoot out to 100 yrds...PSE and the Stryker...
    Solves the problem of having to get them into 30 yds anymore...
     

    "There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
     
     


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    griffon
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    RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/13 14:30:44 (permalink)
    I am not arguing for or against it.  I was simply asking the questions...  Myself, I still keep it simple to some degree, but I do use a rangefinder, treestand, popup blind, compound bow, Carbon Arrows, Sims vibration technology, drop away rest, fiberoptic sight, scent sprays and uv eliminators, GPS, ATV occasionally in Ohio.  The point is, none of us (or at least very few) are separated from technology when we archery hunt.  So, what is going too far and who gets to decide?  Should we tear down the sport and rebuild it from scratch?  I don't have the answers, but I do not believe you can't stop "progress... for lack of a better term" 
    post edited by griffon - 2009/01/13 18:44:18
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    nightowl207
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    RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/14 00:48:32 (permalink)
    Id have to see 1in accuracy at 100yrds to believe it. A fart would cause enough wind to throw an arrow off more than an inch at that distance. Do you know how long it would take for an arrow to hit a target 100yrds away at 412fps? A long time. It would be a completely out of the question to take a shot at an animal at that distance, even 50-60yrds. Your only chance to get a shot would be if the deer was in the middle of a clear field ,was in a drunken coma from rotten apples, and couldnt move. Regardless of how accurate any kind of bow is, it doesnt mean it can kill at the distance it says its accurate to. 412fps is pretty slow and would require your arrow to make a 10' arch though the shooting area. By the time you make a shot at even 50yrds, even at 412fps +, the animal can react to the loud noise of the shot (or anything else) and cause a missed or nonlethal shot. Unless they get a bow shooting at high power rifle speeds and shooting with flat trajectory, their will never be a bow or crossbow that is ethically able to kill an animal at 100yrds, or even 60+. Now for target play, that looks like a fun toy.  
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    gobyking
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    RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/14 02:30:59 (permalink)
    Wrong. It would only take a 3 foot rise and drop in the arrow or bolt as they are called. Set the sights/scope to that range and it would be as true as it is proclaimed. Of course no wind to throw it off. I could sight it in at 100 yards, just aim a certain distance low at closer ranges, maybe set my 3 dot scope at 40 75 90 and I would be alright. Hope you are not for this crossbow inclusion Nightowl, you may regret what you think is right.
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    bingsbaits
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    RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/14 07:04:16 (permalink)
    I got this from another site...Matt is a Bowtwch rep and is not for full inclusion....
     
     




     

    As this issue heats up to whatever the final outcome may be I wanted to illustrate something I don't think I've seen on here before, and that's a head to head look at the true top end offerings in the vertical bow world and the crossbow one.

    I’ve heard many people state to me on the subject of crossbow performance that a "a crossbow doesn’t carry as far, they drop off faster, they are a hinderance in a treestand, they’re loud, there is no performance advantage vs a compound, the ranges are the same” etc etc so on and so on.

    I have an older PSE Fireflight crossbow downstairs right now with a 125# draw weight with it’s old round wheels that I would ABSOLUTELY classify as accurate based upon the above statements. It’s slow, it’s so loud it should come with ear plugs and my 2009 compound will shoot circles around it IN MY HANDS anyway with respect to performance.
    If I absolutely needed to make a shot at 50 yards with either I wouldn’t even glance at that crossbow. It’s a flat out turd. Advantage compound by a wide margin.
    That turd might also be what many people see a crossbow being nowadays.
    Those people would be wrong.

    Let me throw some raw performance numbers out there for you comparing the highest performance crossbow made today The "Stryker" vs the highest performance compound Bowtech makes right now in the Bowtech 82nd Airborne.

    These are the facts on what a top of the line crossbow of today will do and how it compares to the same top level compound. (Not top vs average or vice versa)

    The Airborne 82nd compound bow out of the box comes factory pre-set at 29” draw length and 70# draw weight and will shoot 312fps with a 425g arrow and a kinetic energy of 92ft lbs. (This number is also before weight is added to the string in the form of peep, nock accessories etc which will lower performance)
    That 29”/70# is also above the industry average bowhunter in North America with respect to draw length and draw weight. 425gr arrow was chosen for comparison with the Stryker.

    The Stryker out of the box with it’s 175# draw weight will throw the same 425gr weight projectile at 405fps for a KE rating of 155ft lbs.

    I ran their ballistics through a program to extrapolate what they would both be doing at those controversial “Impossible” crossbow distances that people talk about for comparison and say they can't or won't do.

    The numbers:Pray my math is correct.

    Bowtech Airborne 82nd (point blank) 29”/70# with a 425gr arrow = 312fps and 92ft lbs of KE
    (By all rights an extremely high performance bow)

    At 90 yards it is doing 284fps and 76ft lbs of KE
    At 100 yards it is at 281fps and 74.6ft lbs of KE.
    Impressive performance to say the least!


    Stryker Crossbow- (point blank) with the same 425gr arrow = 405fps for 155ft lbs of KE
    At 90 yards it is still going 341fps with a KE of 110ft lbs. (at 90 yards it is still 16% more powerful than the compound is at point blank
    At 100 yards it is still going 337.8fps with a KE of 107.6 (at 100 yards the crossbow is still 14% more powerful than the compound at point blank)

    Think about that.

    What does this longwinded nonsense illustrate exactly?
    For one it directly compares the top end offerings in both categories no BS, it's todays best performance in each category. It also dispels the myth that crossbows somehow are “less efficient” or offer no performance advantage over a compound.
    Remember the average bowhunter is shooting a compound bow with far less performance than I illustrated which widens that gap considerably.....anybody can shoot the Stryker with the performance listed.

    Sure there are old style roundwheel crossbows out there, middle of the road crossbows out there, outdated crossbows out there, that performance wise at long range are ballistically even with or below the better of the compounds. That’s a fact. There are JUNK crossbows just like there are junk compounds.
    But to argue a lack of performance advantage for today’s crossbow on top of the obvious pre-cocked one and the use of true optics is being flat out silly.
    Make no mistake about what is available and what is also on the way. Page through a Fall Cabela’s master catalog and look at the pages of crossbows and you’ll quickly see that these aren’t your daddy’s crossbows.
    You let in the bottom end crossbows which in spirit I'm sure many guys are arguing for………you’ve also left in the top end one as well.
    And I’ve shown what that what will do. And they aren’t done yet. There is much more room for advancement in performance on crossbows than there is currently with compounds with an already wide performance gap between the 2.
    You want an eye opener? You guys who THINK you know what the story is with ALL crossbows?
    Get your hands on a Stryker like I illustrated above with its 3 dot scope which can be set for around 60-80-100yards and head to a bench rest and shoot some groups. Bring along a buddy to help pull the bolts if they didn't pass right through your target.
    I can shoot groups at 100 yards right out of the box with the Stryker that I could only DREAM about shooting with a compound and do it with more energy than my bow puts out 2 feet from the bow....... and I’m a National Champion 3D archer.
    I can tell you for a FACT that with a rest I could kill a deer standing still everytime at 100 yards if I had a rangefinder and a Stryker. Would you consider it unethical or irresponsible? It's totally capable of making clean accurate pass through kills to 100 yards with ease. The numbers don't lie.

    Don’t look at the dusty rusty round wheel crossbow in the corner and think you know crossbows……..because you don’t.
    Let one in and you let them ALL in and they will get even better, count on it.

    The crossbow manufacturers don’t see some happy world where crossbows and compounds belong together for some higher good, where we should all sit around a campfire singing pretty songs despite what it could do to our seasons and game management………what they see is the holy grail of crossbow manufacturing and that’s simply Pennsylvania the state. We are nothing more than a huge untapped resource consisting of hundreds of thousands of hunters who know guns, but not bows.

    "There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
     
     


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    tippecanoe
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    RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/14 09:02:35 (permalink)
    that was most interesting
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    Dr. Trout
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    RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/14 09:30:52 (permalink)
    After reading that I'm even more excited about using one next year in archery season.........
     
    post edited by Dr. Trout - 2009/01/14 09:31:21
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    gobyking
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    RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/14 10:44:32 (permalink)
    They don't come with a little blue pill, you have to buy those seperate.
     
    Why not lobby for a rifle in archery?
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    casts_by_fly
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    RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/14 11:16:12 (permalink)
    That is an interesting post from Matt.  From his numbers, you can figure a time of flight of about 0.8s at 100 yards.  That would be the equivalent of a 240 fps bow shooting a 50 yard shot (something that a lot more archers would consider reasonable).
     
    I didn't think the retained energy would be that high, that far down range.  For a standing, stationary deer there is plenty enough energy to take the shot.  That will be an eyeopener for some people.
     
    Thanks,
    Rick
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    nightowl207
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    RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/14 12:32:57 (permalink)
    Still this crossbow would not be able to effectively kill at those ranges. Its hard enough to guess what range an animal is below 35-40yrds let alone 100- yrds. And knowing what range the target is very crucial to the accuracy of any weapon, exspecially a crossbow. I do have a crossbow, the one i have claims 60yrd accuracy 320fps 114ft, I have shot it many of times and have lots of practice and I still would even take a chance at an animal beyond 30yrds. At 45yrds, on a very calm day, shooting off a rest, it can hold an 10ingroup, do you think that is accurate enough to take an ethical shot at a deer? I dont. I wont even try shooting it at 60yrds at a target because I dont wanna lose $10 a piece arrows down throught the trees. Now at 30yrds I can hold a 2-3inch group off a rest (which i can do better than that with my late80's Jennings compound), but after that, to much affects the bolt. This product IMO, sounds like the company is advertising it to be a professional deer wounder. Because just throwing statements out ,like they are, about its accuracy and speed at 100yds, they are encouraging a bunch of disrespectful ignorant hunters to try and schling an arrow at that animal at that distance when the bow is probably not near as capable as they make it out to be. Also the number that the Matt fella threw out about the speed and energy both bows hold out to one hundred yrds, that is not believable. Sounds to me just like numbers off the top of his head, not proven statistics. Crossbows lose most of their KE at 30yrds, compounds lose most of theirs at 40yrds. A compound holds its Kinetic energy longer because of the powerstroke length they have. I cant say Im for legalizing crossbows, not because I think they will have a higher success rate of killing an animal (because I dont think it would), but because it would cause a higher wound rate which is worse. If hunters nowadays had a little respect for the animal and companies wouldnt claim outragious capabilities I think it would be be fine to legalize them. Theres to many A-holes in the woods taking unethical shots with rifles let alone bows and crossbows. To give the trigger fingered hot heads in the woods one of these things well have to have an early rifle seaon to go out and shoot all the gang green wounded deer.  
    #17
    Deadbolt401
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    RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/14 13:07:58 (permalink)
    Sweet!

    I want one!
    #18
    bingsbaits
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    RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/14 14:34:18 (permalink)
    You can come up with an extra $1500 Doc you can get set right up.
     
    Actually I have over $1200 in my new bow as alot of guys do that have upgraded in the lsat few years..
    So those prices aren't totally out of whack for top of the line equipment...
     
    I would like to try one out for woodchucks...That might be fun....
    I'm still not to hot on the idea of full inclusion in archery though...

    "There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
     
     


    #19
    Dr. Trout
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    RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/14 19:10:08 (permalink)
    $1,500.00 -------------   is that American money ????

    NOT SO EXCITED NOW !!!!!!!

    I wish more folks here were my age... 

    most of the arguements you younger guys are putting forth about wounded deer... crossbows bringing in slob hunters...  lazy hunters will use crossbows because they won't have to practice as much... folks will take longer shots...etc..etc ----------

    That's the same arguements made when compounds were introduced into the archery season....  HONEST !!!!!
     
    And the number of folks hunting in archery season increased when they (compounds) were included ---
     
    the number of bucks killed increased.. the season did not get reduced... it grew longer
     
    the number of wounded and lost deer grew too
     
    the number of archers that did not practice as mush as longbow users also increased
     
    and naturally  the number of slob hunters would have increased too
     
    remember there were slob hunters using longbows to...
     
    it's not all about what weapon you use.. it's the type hunter you are........
     
    post edited by Dr. Trout - 2009/01/14 19:15:05
    #20
    A1H Skyraider
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    RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/14 20:36:47 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout

    $1,500.00 -------------   is that American money ????

    NOT SO EXCITED NOW !!!!!!!

    I wish more folks here were my age... 

    most of the arguements you younger guys are putting forth about wounded deer... crossbows bringing in slob hunters...  lazy hunters will use crossbows because they won't have to practice as much... folks will take longer shots...etc..etc ----------

    That's the same arguements made when compounds were introduced into the archery season....  HONEST !!!!!

    And the number of folks hunting in archery season increased when they (compounds) were included ---

    the number of bucks killed increased.. the season did not get reduced... it grew longer

    the number of wounded and lost deer grew too

    the number of archers that did not practice as mush as longbow users also increased

    and naturally  the number of slob hunters would have increased too

    remember there were slob hunters using longbows to...

    it's not all about what weapon you use.. it's the type hunter you are........


     
    I gotta agree with Doc.
     
    I for one will most likely not get a crossbow, but if you currently hunt with a compound and are crying about the technology of the crossbow you shold go back to a long bow if you feel that way.
     
    when they decided to legalize compound bows you had your "Bear Whitetail Hunter"  as the latest technology,
    there wasn't any carbon limbs, fibreoptics, vibration dampeners, backtension releases, 2x scopes in the sight, peeps, carbon arrows (super thin with weight forward technology), expandable broadheads, single cam 85% letoff, short axle bows, quick spin vanes, drop away rests, split carbon limbs, speed strings, teflon carbon slides....need i go on.
     
    Not to mention, aluminum lock on stands, climbers that dont slide down the tree like the old bakers, 1000 different scents real and fake, 100 different calls, grunts, bleets, snorts etc., trail cams that broadcast to your computer, the latest camo paterns.
     
    I started hunting archery with a 40lb stemler fibreglass recurve, cedar arrows, and glued on hilbre (spelling) broad heads with the removalbe bleeder blades when I was 13.  now I have an $800 short axle compound with most of the accessories listed above.  AM I MORE OF A HUNTER NOW THAN I WAS AT 13?  I'm not sure.  But im a more effective killer if you consider that "Hunting"
     
    I for one will invite the crossbow hunters to the woods of PA, once that is done Ill start my campaign to get archery season to stay in straight through just like in ohio.

    "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the
    gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill
    #21
    Dr. Trout
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    RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/14 20:47:18 (permalink)
    "Bear Whitetail Hunter"  

     
    That's what I own... what I would hunt with ... and the only bow I ever had or wanted...
    post edited by Dr. Trout - 2009/01/14 20:51:39
    #22
    S-10
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    RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/14 21:02:46 (permalink)
    $1500--It's actually a bit more than that plus tax.  Lets see, Pa has about 230,000 archers. Crossbow inclusion would bring in about 30,000 more, potential for about half the total to buy the latest legal deer shooter at $1500 per copy. No wonder they have lobyists cruising the area looking for PGC personnel and our reps to take to dinner. Better get a second job Doc unless your a better negoiator than me you will have a hard time convincing your wife you need one.
    #23
    bingsbaits
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    RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/14 21:04:04 (permalink)
    but if you currently hunt with a compound and are crying about the technology of the crossbow you should go back to a long bow if you feel that way....
     
     
    Not crying at all...Just letting every one know just what comes with full inclusion....
     
    My reasons for not wanting them are purely selfish. I probably will not get one as I love to hunt with the bow...
     
    If the guy in the next tree over can reach out 50-60-70 yards and spank a deer I feel like I'm at a disadvantage..
     
    It may bring more hunters into the woods during archery season.. As you've heard me say the woods around home here is quite crowded now.. More would be just that more hunters....
     
    There are more slob hunters out there Doc than you or I could ever imagine...I think of the lack of the need to practice alot with the crossbow can bring in more of the hunters that are not willing to put the time in.
     
    As I have always felt all the practice I put in makes me a better hunter..Their lack of practice could be just the opposite..
     
    I guess we will see soon enough...Would still rather see a short season to test the waters for a couple years.
    Maybe make a senior permit for the older hunters keep them in the game...

    "There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
     
     


    #24
    A1H Skyraider
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    RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/14 21:26:47 (permalink)
    http://www.pse-archery.com/pdf/09_TAC_15_Flier.pdf
     
    here is the link. from pse for the cut sheet, not sure of the $1500 price up above but what ever it is you also have to inlude your own AR-15 lower receiver assembly.  You better buy this now, the AR-15 will be banned again soon by Obama.
     
    Oh yea.  I know plenty of hack hunters who use compounds, dont practice, take bad shots or too long of shots, wound and loose lots of deer, I hope they switch to crossbows too, atleast they will have a chance of hitting where they are aiming.

    "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the
    gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill
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    nightowl207
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    RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/14 21:39:41 (permalink)
    I wasnt stating that doc. if your were insinuating my post. I wish they were legal for me to use, but I know their are to many idiots in the wood that think you can kill a deer at 60-100yrds if they use a crossbow (and will try it) when really ethically you shouldnt take any shots over 40yrds. I was saying that these companies making claims like they are about crossbows, are gonna end up making up the decision to never legalize them. Their claims have already turned away how many compound users, who think they do it the primitive way, from crossbows because they make claims of 100yrd accuracy and 400+fps. When really they wont successfully kill a deer any more likely than a Mathews compound. It can be legalized or not I dont really care, If it does I will be in the woods with both crossbow and compound come archery season, if it dont ill be in the woods with the compound. I know I have just the same chance with either.
    post edited by nightowl207 - 2009/01/14 21:48:03
    #26
    Dr. Trout
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    RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/14 22:15:10 (permalink)
    Here's how I think it will come down...
     
    Inculsion but not for the whole season... look for maybe 2 weeks...no special permit or licenses and anyone can use one..... either sex...
     
    As for all this 50+ yard shooting.... there are guys out there doing that now with compounds.. or should I say trying to do that....
     
    I think maybe SOME will think long range with a crossbow and I PRAY they give it a try while practicing... I do not think any one is going to take one out deer hunting just "out of the box"..
     
    It won't take long to see that long distance with a crossbow in the PA woods is really not much different... the environment almost limits deer hunting in archery to 35yards IF the hunter has any concern for the deer and a good clean kill...
     
    those that do not think of a good clean kill will take bad shots with any and every weapon.. even rifles....
     
    As for bing saying about the number of slobs..... I see MANY of them everyday during deer season at the store...
     
    I'd say that 10% of deer hunters break game laws and another 10% are what I call slob hunters...  so there's 20% of the hunters that I believe I could give a " $hit" less about.
    #27
    Dr. Trout
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    RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/14 22:32:58 (permalink)
    As for claims of distance ---- it took only a few minutes to find these claims about compounds and their distance...

    I can hit a bullseye at 100 yards with a recurve



    I have an older model PSE Mach 8...set up for what I estimate at 65 pound draw weight. I believe with the Easton Gamegetter arrow, I may be shooting at something around 250 feet per second. In my pasture, I can push that arrow only about 350 yards. I thought it would go farther, but this is what I get.

     
     

    Two days after I set up my bow and sighted my pins in at 20, 30, 40 and 50 yards, I went to a 3-D tournament and shot a 292 out of 300. Only four of my shots fell outside the 10-point ring and landed in the 8-point ring

     
    Does that mean every compound user shoots at those distances ?????
     
    If the answer is no then why would one assume all crossbowers would ?????????
    post edited by Dr. Trout - 2009/01/14 22:37:46
    #28
    nightowl207
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    RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/14 22:50:28 (permalink)
    I heard the hearing is jan 22. When will the public be notified of the decision?
    #29
    Dr. Trout
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    RE: recurve bows--longbows--crossbows whats the difference 2009/01/14 23:02:37 (permalink)
    I'll be telling folks as soon as I find out ...I'll get one of those infamous E-mails after the meeting depends on when the actual vote is.....

    It will be on their site shortly after the meetings (a day or two)

    BTW.. it is not the 22nd... the meetings are the 25th, 26th, 27th... my guess is the vote will probably be Tuesday morning.... we shall see.......
    post edited by Dr. Trout - 2009/01/14 23:05:07
    #30
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