Welcome to archery

Page: << < ..11 Showing page 11 of 11
Author
Post
Essentials Only Full Version
SilverKype
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3842
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2005/01/24 11:58:02
  • Location: State
  • Status: offline
RE: Welcome to archery 2008/12/15 14:27:12 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: dpms

ORIGINAL: S-10

However, when comparing the number of deer today and number of hunters today as compared to 10/20 years ago there is much more hunting pressure per deer than there was.


Well, lets use firearms as an example.  If yours and Silver's theory is correct the pressure should be extreme per deer or enough to matter right? 

Every year for us, with this year being the worst(as far as deer movement), very little shooting and minimal forced deer movement.  We shot 7 bucks this year and every one of them was shot as they were feeding unmolested.  That was not the case 10 or even 5 years ago when deer were trotting through the woods at all hours. 

Less hunters means less effects from those hunters period.  If we gain several thousand archers the affects will be no worse than when we had the same number before. 

Nice try guys.


 
So based on what you experience in your area on private land (where you didn't see another vehicle the first day), can be applied to area's across the state.  Such as highly pressured public property.
 
Thanks for the laugh.

My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
#301
SilverKype
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3842
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2005/01/24 11:58:02
  • Location: State
  • Status: offline
RE: Welcome to archery 2008/12/15 14:28:16 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: dpms

I must say that I am getting a kick out of this angle since the numbers work against your positions.

I would be curious if we took crossbows out of this discussion, and next year we sold 300,000 archery licenses, how many of you would be crying about too much pressure on the deer during archery.

We would not hear a blip.   

 
I don't hunt a lot of spots I'd like to, now, because of pressure.
 
 
Thanks for another subjective post.  LOL

My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
#302
dpms
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3509
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
  • Status: offline
RE: Welcome to archery 2008/12/15 15:59:38 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: SilverKype 

So based on what you experience in your area on private land (where you didn't see another vehicle the first day), can be applied to area's across the state.  Such as highly pressured public property.


 
My point of view would be based off of the multiple properites I hunt during archery, firearms, and flintlock seasons.  Most private unposted, some private posted and some SGL's.
 
Less hunters on all of these properties and less pressure on the deer(as evidenced by less forced movement and more normal patterns) compared to 10 years ago. 
 
Keep trying though, I am still getting a kick out of it. 

My rifle is a black rifle
#303
dpms
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3509
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
  • Status: offline
RE: Welcome to archery 2008/12/15 16:14:13 (permalink)
Silver,

I would be curious if we took crossbows out of this discussion, and next year we sold 300,000 archery licenses, how many of you would be crying about too much pressure on the deer during archery.

We would not hear a blip IMO. (yes that is subjective) 

To be fair I have heard you complaining as of late about the lower deer numbers in some of your areas but to now start complaining about too many archery hunters shows your hand. 
post edited by dpms - 2008/12/15 16:16:15

My rifle is a black rifle
#304
gobyking
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 1195
  • Reward points: 0
  • Status: offline
RE: Welcome to archery 2008/12/15 20:52:05 (permalink)
It seems your position is that what is happening to me is good enough and what must be true for eveyone else. Didn'y you get a buck first day of archery? How can you compare you being tagged out to someone else in another WMU of which you have never hunted?
 
I hunt in your general area DPMS and have found pressure during archery spotty depending on where it is, but am not about to tell someone in 2F,1B, or 2G that everything is just dandy and pressure is light; or that guys should go somewhere new; or go deeper in the woods and scout better. That would be talking down to them just like if they were to tell you what is going on in 2B with experience only from their WMU. Nor do I take any great faith in the PGC's numbers because they are routinely wrong. Herd size and success rates have been guessed or estimated. Maybe half turn in harvest tags, how they can judge the herd size is another magic 8-ball answer.
#305
bingsbaits
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 5026
  • Reward points: 0
  • Status: offline
RE: Welcome to archery 2008/12/16 05:49:36 (permalink)
The pressure sure hasn't let up here in 1-B..The Blue Army fills in all the gaps here..
 

"There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
 
 


#306
dpms
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3509
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
  • Status: offline
RE: Welcome to archery 2008/12/16 07:41:59 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: gobyking

I hunt in your general area DPMS and have found pressure during archery spotty depending on where it is, but am not about to tell someone in 2F,1B, or 2G that everything is just dandy and pressure is light; or that guys should go somewhere new; or go deeper in the woods and scout better. That would be talking down to them just like if they were to tell you what is going on in 2B with experience only from their WMU.

 
Yes, I hunt little in the big woods.  I can assure you that overall license sales are dropping quickly.  That can only mean one thing, less hunters.
 
As to the big woods, Talk to Dr. Trout about the pressure during firearms up his way this year.  Also, all of my buddies that went up north constantly talk of the empty camps and for sale signs. 
 
I am not talking down to anyone, just pointing out the numbers which do not lie or spin.  I do not doubt there are pockets where pressure is high, higher or unchanged from ten years ago.  I ask that all look at the big picture and quit spinning for thier agenda.
 
 

My rifle is a black rifle
#307
dpms
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3509
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
  • Status: offline
RE: Welcome to archery 2008/12/16 07:43:57 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: bingsbaits

The pressure sure hasn't let up here in 1-B..The Blue Army fills in all the gaps here..


 
I agree, those that hunt with the Amish will not see much reduced pressure.  It is a way of life that will not change for them.
 
Unfortunately, for the rest of us, we are losing hunters by the truckload every year.  The hunting way of life that we grew up in is rapidly changing before our eyes.

My rifle is a black rifle
#308
SilverKype
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3842
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2005/01/24 11:58:02
  • Location: State
  • Status: offline
RE: Welcome to archery 2008/12/16 07:51:21 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: dpms

Silver,

I would be curious if we took crossbows out of this discussion, and next year we sold 300,000 archery licenses, how many of you would be crying about too much pressure on the deer during archery.

We would not hear a blip IMO. (yes that is subjective) 

To be fair I have heard you complaining as of late about the lower deer numbers in some of your areas but to now start complaining about too many archery hunters shows your hand. 

 
No you haven't.  I would love for you to show me where I complained about low deer numbers for myself.  Show me please. 
 
I have said, all season... that because of the gypsy moths and no acorns, I've had to find new spots most of the year, which consisted of the south east sides of the mountains and ridges.  I normally hunt the NW sides, which the frost seemed to have gotten the best of the acorns mass.   I also said, I know an area on public property that has 60 deer in about a square mile.   I've also complained about the pressure on deer.  Pressure is the biggy.
 
 

My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
#309
dpms
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3509
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
  • Status: offline
RE: Welcome to archery 2008/12/16 07:56:00 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: SilverKype

No you haven't.  I would love for you to show me where I complained about low deer numbers for myself.  Show me please. 



I seem to remember somewhere about low deer sightings during archery for you this year.

I do remember you doing some scouting and finding an area with higher numbers during a snowfall which is what all should be doing if the sightings plummet.
post edited by dpms - 2008/12/16 07:58:40

My rifle is a black rifle
#310
SilverKype
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3842
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2005/01/24 11:58:02
  • Location: State
  • Status: offline
RE: Welcome to archery 2008/12/16 08:06:02 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: dpms

ORIGINAL: gobyking

I am not talking down to anyone, just pointing out the numbers which do not lie or spin.  I do not doubt there are pockets where pressure is high, higher or unchanged from ten years ago.  I ask that all look at the big picture and quit spinning for thier agenda.



 
please.. spinning for an agenda. 
 
Let's look at the overall numbers, not just for your little narrow minded .. area.
 
Your WMU is 2B right ??.. there is still a surplus of doe tags left .. still!!!  17,000 in fact.   Mine .. 4D sold out in days.   See a difference in pressure?   Argue all you want, my area is full of public property compared to yours.  Deer numbers for my area have dropped off about 6X since AR/HR.  (That's not complaining as you may define it).  2B had 68,000 allocated tags for 2008, 4D had 40,000.  Look at the difference in size.
 
http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/lib/pgc/digestpdfs/2008/19_wildlifemgmtunit.pdf
 
 
Hunter numbers in the past have been around 1 million.  Last year they were in the mid 800,000.  This year they are a bit higher.  So .. we've lost roughly 100,000 or so hunters of the last decade.  In the beginning of HR, we were killing more than 500,000 per year.  Seems like deer numbers dropped faster than hunter numbers to me.  Spin it as you please, the "big" picture is quite clear.  We still take around 350,000 deer per year, yet have lost about 100,000 hunters.  The deer to hunter ratio is obvious.  Per the numbers, hunter per deer ratio has increased.  It has for my area.  Because it hasn't for yours, doesn't mean it hasn't for others.

My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
#311
SilverKype
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3842
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2005/01/24 11:58:02
  • Location: State
  • Status: offline
RE: Welcome to archery 2008/12/16 08:11:59 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: dpms

ORIGINAL: SilverKype

No you haven't.  I would love for you to show me where I complained about low deer numbers for myself.  Show me please. 



I seem to remember somewhere about low deer sightings during archery for you this year.

I do remember you doing some scouting and finding an area with higher numbers during a snowfall which is what all should be doing if the sightings plummet.

 
You're remembering what you want to.  I've said, the bottom of the barrel for deer numbers in my area was 20052006 season, which I saw 18 in archery out of 120 hours hunting.  I saw 36 in 120 hours last year.  I saw around 40 (I haven't added them yet), in 150 hours this year.   This year, low numbers in the majority of my normal spots, not because of lack of deer, but because of acorn crop.  The deer moved to the SE side of the mountains.   I adjusted to the change.   

My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
#312
SilverKype
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3842
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2005/01/24 11:58:02
  • Location: State
  • Status: offline
RE: Welcome to archery 2008/12/16 08:15:37 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: dpms

ORIGINAL: gobyking

I hunt in your general area DPMS and have found pressure during archery spotty depending on where it is, but am not about to tell someone in 2F,1B, or 2G that everything is just dandy and pressure is light; or that guys should go somewhere new; or go deeper in the woods and scout better. That would be talking down to them just like if they were to tell you what is going on in 2B with experience only from their WMU.
 


I do not doubt there are pockets where pressure is high, higher or unchanged from ten years ago. 


 
Thanks for recognizing others opinions about their areas.  Amish pound my area every rifle season too.   But they didn't do too well this year. 

My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
#313
dpms
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3509
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
  • Status: offline
RE: Welcome to archery 2008/12/16 08:39:51 (permalink)
Silver said:
 
Hunter numbers in the past have been around 1 million.  Last year they were in the mid 800,000.  This year they are a bit higher.  So .. we've lost roughly 100,000 or so hunters of the last decade.  In the beginning of HR, we were killing more than 500,000 per year.  Seems like deer numbers dropped faster than hunter numbers to me.  Spin it as you please, the "big" picture is quite clear.  We still take around 350,000 deer per year, yet have lost about 100,000 hunters. 
 
No spinning required from me.  You posted the decrease in hunter numbers.  As to the deer kill being what it is, it is called HR then HS.
 
The PGC can adjust it's harvest to the avaiable hunters.  They have all the tools they need to do so. 
 
Less hunter numbers=less pressure overall, not just in isolated pockets. 

My rifle is a black rifle
#314
SilverKype
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3842
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2005/01/24 11:58:02
  • Location: State
  • Status: offline
RE: Welcome to archery 2008/12/16 09:03:48 (permalink)
Still using one side to your argument.   As I said before, hunting pressure means nothing by itself.  You need to use deer numbers as well.  Pockets of deer don't distribute hunters evenly.  Less hunters focusing on less deer in isolated pockets equals more pressure.  Plain and simple.
 
The difference here is we are interpreting the numbers differently.  Yes, 800,000 is less than 1,000,000 but it's a one sided agenda-based argument.  The "big" picture includes the deer.   Supply and demand.  Demand only paints half the picture.
 
NICE TRY. 

My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
#315
bingsbaits
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 5026
  • Reward points: 0
  • Status: offline
RE: Welcome to archery 2008/12/16 09:10:46 (permalink)
Less hunter numbers=less pressure overall, not just in isolated pockets. 

But the deer numbers fall faster than the hunter numbers..
With multiple tags some guys are taking 2, 3, 4, deer depending on the availability of tags..
He should count as 4 hunters in the survey if he has 4 tags and fills them.
You count him as 1 and say pressure is less..

"There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
 
 


#316
gobyking
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 1195
  • Reward points: 0
  • Status: offline
RE: Welcome to archery 2008/12/16 09:12:10 (permalink)
I think I'm not spinning my agenda since I don't think I have one other than my opinion. I already have crossbows in my area and nothing I say, do, petition, email, or type will change that. I just don't think it is in the best interest for the rest of the state to have full inclusion during archery season.
 
Crossbows can be used statewide during the late flintlock season right now from what I read in the rules book. Isn't that a season for it?
 
As with anything, numbers only depend on the individual area one person is hunting and their personal opinion on what they see. Again, the PGC's numbers are flawed and just a guess. I think we can all agree on that, maybe....
 
 
#317
SilverKype
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3842
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2005/01/24 11:58:02
  • Location: State
  • Status: offline
RE: Welcome to archery 2008/12/16 09:18:55 (permalink)
They can be used in rifle too goby .. and the early ML season for doe. ... and pretty sure bear archery.  
WANT WANT WANT.
 
It wouldn't bother me if an actual organization took charge and got something done for themselves.   Instead the legislators got involved.  Sad times for the so called independent PGC.
 
 

My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
#318
dpms
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3509
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
  • Status: offline
RE: Welcome to archery 2008/12/16 11:08:10 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: gobyking

I think I'm not spinning my agenda since I don't think I have one other than my opinion.


 
I do not think you are either. 

My rifle is a black rifle
#319
dpms
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3509
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
  • Status: offline
RE: Welcome to archery 2008/12/16 11:22:34 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: SilverKype
It wouldn't bother me if an actual organization took charge and got something done for themselves.   Instead the legislators got involved.  Sad times for the so called independent PGC.

 
I agree totally.  I will fight tooth and nail to keep legislators out of game management. 
 
With that being said I spoke to several of the commsissioners(2 for inclusion and one against) at the fall meeting and they are well aware of the legislative pressure on many fronts.  This just being one. 
 
All three laid out thier reasoning for their positions and their postions seemed rather independent.  I understand Palone has stated some legislative prodding but I did not speak with her personally.
 
Now we have the UBP suggesting legislative accountability for it's influence on the BOC. 
 
As Silver said, sad times for the PGC.

My rifle is a black rifle
#320
dpms
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3509
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
  • Status: offline
RE: Welcome to archery 2008/12/16 11:24:43 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: SilverKype

The difference here is we are interpreting the numbers differently.  Yes, 800,000 is less than 1,000,000 but it's a one sided agenda-based argument.  The "big" picture includes the deer.   Supply and demand.  Demand only paints half the picture.


 
Hey man, your opinion and it is what it is.  Geez, and I am not even a full inclusion guy.

My rifle is a black rifle
#321
dpms
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3509
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
  • Status: offline
RE: Welcome to archery 2008/12/16 11:25:33 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: bingsbaits 

But the deer numbers fall faster than the hunter numbers..

 
Yep, HR and HS.

My rifle is a black rifle
#322
S-10
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 5185
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2005/01/21 21:22:55
  • Status: offline
RE: Welcome to archery 2008/12/16 12:03:07 (permalink)
It's a simple math problem-----1,000,000 hunters--1,600,000 deer= one hunter for each 1.6 deer
                 
                                           930,000 hunters-- 1,000,000 deer= one hunter for each 1.07 deer
 
And that's without adding in all the additional tags, types of different hunts, mentored hunters, DMAP tags, etc. Plus the million deer is high depending on whose estimates you use.
#323
dpms
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3509
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
  • Status: offline
RE: Welcome to archery 2008/12/16 12:18:30 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: S-10

It's a simple math problem-----1,000,000 hunters--1,600,000 deer= one hunter for each 1.6 deer
                
                                          930,000 hunters-- 1,000,000 deer= one hunter for each 1.07 deer


 
Yep I would agree with that math. 
 
Another flaw in yours and Silver arguements is paticipation days.  Remember the days with full camps for the whole first week or Mon-Wed?  Doesn't happen now as much as it did in the past. 
 
So if we have less hunters hunting fewer deer but hunting less days how does that figure into your added pressure thoery?
 

My rifle is a black rifle
#324
S-10
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 5185
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2005/01/21 21:22:55
  • Status: offline
RE: Welcome to archery 2008/12/16 12:25:53 (permalink)
This is your post from another site. How does that figure into your less pressure claim or claim crossbows won't add pressure?
 
 

Quote :



Penn wrote :Now the competition with early season hunters are driving them to go nocturnal to early in the hunting season.

Just my humble opinion.  




Good point, I have seen bucks moving later in the day here in the SRA's with the addition of crossbows and extra hunters.  It has effected how I hunt.

But, on the flip side, the extra pressure will limit buck harvest somewhat which was a goal of AR's
#325
dpms
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3509
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
  • Status: offline
RE: Welcome to archery 2008/12/16 12:43:44 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: S-10

This is your post from another site. How does that figure into your less pressure claim or claim crossbows won't add pressure?

 
S-10, I have said that the addition of 60,000 new hunters will not bring more pressure than when we had the same numbers 10 years ago.  Yes, any additional hunters in any season will add pressure but your arguement is the pressure today is somehow compounded compared to before.
 
Here is why I said what I said in that post. 
 
Many of my spots within the SRA are extremely small woodlots, some as small as 3 acres.  One extra hunter scouting or hunting in three acres is not good as you would imagine.  When crossbows were legalized in the SRA there was a spike of archery participation here which I have said many times affected how and where I hunt.  I did notice some changes in deer activity. 
 
The point I disagree with is the compounded pressure that you and Silver claim because there are fewer deer and somehow hunters will be less tolerant to the same number of archery hunters that we had 10 years ago.
 
I have never said that more hunters=no gain in pressure.  I have said that that pressure will be no more than we experienced before.
 
You are losing your way my friend.
 
 

My rifle is a black rifle
#326
dpms
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3509
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
  • Status: offline
RE: Welcome to archery 2008/12/16 12:45:24 (permalink)
S-10,

Now that I expalined it for ya have a whack at my question to you.

Another flaw in yours and Silver arguements is paticipation days.  Remember the days with full camps for the whole first week or Mon-Wed?  Doesn't happen now as much as it did in the past. 

So if we have less hunters hunting fewer deer but hunting less days how does that figure into your added compounded pressure thoery?
post edited by dpms - 2008/12/16 12:57:14

My rifle is a black rifle
#327
bingsbaits
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 5026
  • Reward points: 0
  • Status: offline
RE: Welcome to archery 2008/12/16 12:57:19 (permalink)
You aren't mentioning the now posted land...Alot of land available to public hunting just ten years ago is now posted. Pushing the hunters on to smaller and smaller pieces of public land with lower deer densities.....More hunters and less deer should equal more pressure.

"There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
 
 


#328
S-10
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 5185
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2005/01/21 21:22:55
  • Status: offline
RE: Welcome to archery 2008/12/16 13:05:21 (permalink)
Do you have any studies done in the last 3 or so years to back up that claim? I do not count Doc's neighbors camps although he is probably correct that in 2B the hunters have dropped off due to the drastic reduction in deer. You hunt restricted areas in Washington and Allegheny counties as well as posted ground you have gained permission on. From your statements on another site you do very little hunting on public or non restricted ground so have no idea what is happening there. I hunt only public or non posted ground and in my areas with the exception of fewer Ohio hunters we have not seen much reduction in pressure.
#329
dpms
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3509
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
  • Status: offline
RE: Welcome to archery 2008/12/16 13:10:19 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: S-10

Do you have any studies done in the last 3 or so years to back up that claim? 
 
 From your statements on another site you do very little hunting on public or non restricted ground so have no idea what is happening there.

 
No studies that I am aware of as far as participation days.  Just what I see and what people tell me.
 
Yes, I hunt little public ground, some SGL's in Washington County.  I did shoot a doe(feeding)  on the first Tuesday last year on those SGL.  I saw one hunter that afternoon. 
 
 

My rifle is a black rifle
#330
Page: << < ..11 Showing page 11 of 11
Jump to: