mountain lions in pa??? what do you think!!

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Deadbolt401
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RE: mountain lions in pa??? what do you think!! 2008/10/07 00:05:25 (permalink)
I'd drop one in a heartbeat and take the fine straight to the bank!

It'd be worth it.
#31
Dr. Trout
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RE: mountain lions in pa??? what do you think!! 2008/10/07 11:11:00 (permalink)
 


One last attempt....

The digest you get with your license is basically a small summary of the GAME laws.... mainly dealing with GAME animals/birds .... GAME animals/birds are those that have seasons and other limits on the harvesting there of.....

The PGC developed and the legislature passed into law the ---

PA. GAME AND WILDLFE CODE

That deals with ALL game animals and non-game animals and other wildlife in the state....  and is the BIBLE of hunting in Pa...everyone should have one or at least read it once....   it's even available on their website I BELIEVE...


There is ALOT that is in THE LAWS (code) that is not in the digest.. I just thought everyone knew that the digest did not cover every law about game and wildlife in PA....


Sections ---

2161,2162, 2163,2164,2165,2166,2167,...2301,2302,2306.... 

2321 .... 2323


deal with SOME  protection of wildlife or game animals..


Do they not teach the basic fact that if there is not a season  for it that in Pa you can not kill it anymore in hunter education ???????

If you're trying to be silly and want to see the word cougar or Mt lion .... that's not there..... because they do not list everything that is illegal to kill they do it the EASY way.. list what is legal.... GHEEEEZZ......

I'll take the time to type this out... and will not comment again...

The first thing the code does is give definitions to words used in the code

HERE YOU GO....

Furbearers....badger,fisher,mink,muskrat,opossum,otter,pine martin,striped or spotted skunk, racoon, beaver, weasels, foxes,bobcat, and coyote.......

game animals...elk,whitetail deer,bear,cottotail rabbit,snowshoe hare, red, gray, and fox squirrel, groundhog,

game bird...geese,brant,wild ducks,mergansers and swans, coots, gallinules, rails,snipe, woodcock, turkeys, grouse, pheasants, Hungarian partridges, bobwhite quail, mourning doves, crows.. 


SO.... IF YOU DO NOT SEE IT THERE.. IT IS ILLEGAL TO KILL IN PENNSYLVANINA... PERIOD......

They even went so far as to break it down further and easier...ON PAGES 10 and 11  OF THE DIGEST....they show all the wildlife that are legal to shoot and when you can shoot them....

The legal animals are again listed on pages..25, 36, 39, 50 and finally on page 82...

 
and as UNBELIEVABLE as it may seem. to some .. they agree with the CODE 100%  

post edited by Dr. Trout - 2008/10/07 11:17:43
#32
Fishtamer
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RE: mountain lions in pa??? what do you think!! 2008/10/07 14:46:14 (permalink)
I know what I saw. You ARE allowed to shoot feral(spelling?) animals in PA. There does not need to be a season.There were once wild mt. lions in PA, so why is it so hard to believe that they still may exist?
#33
griffon
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RE: mountain lions in pa??? what do you think!! 2008/10/07 15:28:26 (permalink)
Pennsylvania's last known wild eastern mountain lion was killed in Berks County in 1874. And, except for Florida, the eastern mountain lion is believed to have been extirpated from the East Coast by 1900.
 
That is why...
#34
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RE: mountain lions in pa??? what do you think!! 2008/10/07 15:39:43 (permalink)
Still Looking For Proof Of Mountain Lions In Pennsylvania

Tuesday January 20, 2004

UNIVERSITY PARK, Pa. -- Some days, jokes Gary San Julian, a wildlife resources professor in Penn State's College of Agricultural Sciences, he feels like answering his office phone by saying "Pennsylvania Cougar Sightings Clearinghouse."
Since being quoted about the possibility of wild mountain lions surviving in Pennsylvania in a widely published story almost three years ago, he still gets regular e-mail and phone calls from residents around the state who tell him they have seen cougars. The story, titled "A Rural Legend -- the Search for Pennsylvania Mountain Lions," still can be found on the Web at http://www.aginfo.psu.edu/News/august01/lion.html.
"Now I have worked with people and wildlife long enough to know that many, if not most, of these individuals are seeing something unusual," says San Julian. "The sightings, which seem to come from all over the state, are not all bobcats, big housecats or coyotes. Some are easily explained away, but I hear from people who have been hunting for 40 or 50 years, and they know the difference."
It seems clear that some people believe there are cougars at times in the wilds of Pennsylvania, but San Julian and Pennsylvania Game Commission officials believe they are released pets and perhaps a rare animal moving through the state. There have been reports of sightings in adjacent states such as West Virginia and New York, too.
"But never any proof," points out San Julian. "We have never had one killed by a collision with a vehicle or shot, nor have we even seen a confirmed track, DNA verified scat or an indisputable photograph or video. We need to see proof. But even if we get proof of a cougar in the state, there will still be a debate about whether the animal would represent a wild, breeding population." San Julian cautions against hunters shooting any cougar they might encounter, however. "It would be unlawful in most cases to shoot a cougar," he says. "We definitely want to make it clear to sportsmen that they should not shoot a mountain lion if they see one just for the sake of obtaining proof of their existence in Pennsylvania."
Pennsylvania Game Commission spokesman Jerry Feaser explained the regulations: "The general public shouldn't be out there looking to kill any wildlife except what can be hunted during specified seasons," he says, "including a cougar if they should see one. The only exception would be if it is clearly evident that a human life is endangered. The regulations say wildlife can be killed only in self-defense. We come across this occasionally in other hunting seasons when a bear might threaten and charge, and a hunter feels threatened and acts to protect himself or a companion."
There have been some interesting reports of possible cougar evidence in the last few years: a supposedly half-eaten deer carcass in a tree in Bedford County, a large pile of scat high up in a hunter's tree stand in Luzerne County, sightings of cougars with cubs by small plane pilots in western and northcentral Pennsylvania and tracks outside a fence in northcentral Pennsylvania when the captive cougar females inside were in heat. But there has never been any verification.
Like a lot of other people, San Julian would like to believe wild cougars still survive in Pennsylvania. "But without some proof, I just can't," he says. "As a scientist, it would be irresponsible for me to have any other attitude. I admit, all these sightings make me wonder. But without some proof, the mountain lions here remain a rural legend."
###
 
Sounds like if you do shoot one you better drag his claws across your face or stick some of your shirt between his teeth.
#35
Dr. Trout
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RE: mountain lions in pa??? what do you think!! 2008/10/07 20:28:26 (permalink)
Keep in mind -- I HAVE NEVER said ---  there are not cougars in Pa....
 

 
Waiting to see where you read it is okay to kill feral animals in Pa...
got a page number or link to something stating that for Pa. ?????
 
There was some talk about "feral pigs" in one area maybe you have that confused with the whole state ????
 
 
If you want to kill something that is not a game animal go ahead... no skin off my nose
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2008/10/07 20:31:45
#36
><>er man
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RE: mountain lions in pa??? what do you think!! 2008/10/07 20:55:42 (permalink)
remember silver back gorillas were thought to be myths not ne more!! the coelacanth was thought to be extinct but imagine that not ne more so why is it so hard to believe cougars are not extinct in pa?!?! just because no one ever found ne remains !!!!!! tell me when was the last time you found bear remains in pa they must be extinct too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! oh and if you happened to find said bear remains do you have proof id like to see the pictures 
#37
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RE: mountain lions in pa??? what do you think!! 2008/10/07 20:56:43 (permalink)
#38
Dr. Trout
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RE: mountain lions in pa??? what do you think!! 2008/10/07 21:18:19 (permalink)
I see bear all the time...
poop...
hair on trees....
foot prints..
claw marks on devils foot... 
etc.. etc....
 
as for remains.. I do not imagine there is a lot to kill a bear naturally in Pa.
 
so... I know there are plenty of bear in my arae of 2F.. plus folks non hunting folks see them driving around..
 
and we harvest quite a few each year too.....
 
#39
Fishtamer
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RE: mountain lions in pa??? what do you think!! 2008/10/07 22:29:39 (permalink)
What would there be to kill a cougar/mt. lion naturally in PA?
#40
Over the Hill
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RE: mountain lions in pa??? what do you think!! 2008/10/07 23:39:56 (permalink)
old age, disease and cars.... 
 
How many people have come across a dead Bobcat in the woods? Not many, but they're there so....who really knows about bigger cats?

OVER THE HILL

Some people are like slinky's; not really good for anything, but, they bring a smile to your face when you push them down the stairs...
#41
S-10
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RE: mountain lions in pa??? what do you think!! 2008/10/08 05:34:03 (permalink)
There are no mountain lions in Pennsylvania, period. And oh by the way--If you shoot one and prove us wrong we will fine you heavily and may even put you in jail. Have a nice day.
#42
SPIKER
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RE: mountain lions in pa??? what do you think!! 2008/10/08 08:40:29 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout

 


One last attempt....

The digest you get with your license is basically a small summary of the GAME laws.... mainly dealing with GAME animals/birds .... GAME animals/birds are those that have seasons and other limits on the harvesting there of.....

The PGC developed and the legislature passed into law the ---

PA. GAME AND WILDLFE CODE

That deals with ALL game animals and non-game animals and other wildlife in the state....  and is the BIBLE of hunting in Pa...everyone should have one or at least read it once....   it's even available on their website I BELIEVE...


There is ALOT that is in THE LAWS (code) that is not in the digest.. I just thought everyone knew that the digest did not cover every law about game and wildlife in PA....


Sections ---

2161,2162, 2163,2164,2165,2166,2167,...2301,2302,2306.... 

2321 .... 2323


deal with SOME  protection of wildlife or game animals..


Do they not teach the basic fact that if there is not a season  for it that in Pa you can not kill it anymore in hunter education ???????

If you're trying to be silly and want to see the word cougar or Mt lion .... that's not there..... because they do not list everything that is illegal to kill they do it the EASY way.. list what is legal.... GHEEEEZZ......

I'll take the time to type this out... and will not comment again...

The first thing the code does is give definitions to words used in the code

HERE YOU GO....

Furbearers....badger,fisher,mink,muskrat,opossum,otter,pine martin,striped or spotted skunk, racoon, beaver, weasels, foxes,bobcat, and coyote.......

game animals...elk,whitetail deer,bear,cottotail rabbit,snowshoe hare, red, gray, and fox squirrel, groundhog,

game bird...geese,brant,wild ducks,mergansers and swans, coots, gallinules, rails,snipe, woodcock, turkeys, grouse, pheasants, Hungarian partridges, bobwhite quail, mourning doves, crows.. 


SO.... IF YOU DO NOT SEE IT THERE.. IT IS ILLEGAL TO KILL IN PENNSYLVANINA... PERIOD......

They even went so far as to break it down further and easier...ON PAGES 10 and 11  OF THE DIGEST....they show all the wildlife that are legal to shoot and when you can shoot them....

The legal animals are again listed on pages..25, 36, 39, 50 and finally on page 82...

 
and as UNBELIEVABLE as it may seem. to some .. they agree with the CODE 100%  




Alright DR,ill let ya off the hook.I emailed the PGC and they sent me this yesterday.....


To date, the Game Commission has been unable to scientifically authenticate the current existence of mountain lions living and breeding in the wilds of Pennsylvania, therefore, the agency continues to presume the mountain lion’s extirpation or extinction within the state.  The mountain lion currently is listed as an endangered species in its entire former range (including Pennsylvania) by the federal Endangered Species Act and has maintained this endangered status since June 4, 1973.  The mountain lion also is classified as a protected mammal under the Pennsylvania Game and Wildlife Code.  Therefore, to the extent that any mountain lion(s) were found to exist in the wilds of Pennsylvania, both the federal ESA and state laws would provide a variety of protections to them, including substantial civil and/or criminal penalties, for anyone responsible for, among other acts, the unlawful taking or possession of this species.    However, state law does permit the killing of any wildlife for the protection of personal safety.  Here is the section directly from Title 34:   2141. Killing game or wildlife to protect person.   (a) General rule. - It is unlawful for a person to kill any game or wildlife as a means of protection unless it is clearly evident from all the facts that a human is endangered to a degree that the immediate destruction of the game or wildlife is necessary.   (b) Report, safekeeping and investigation. - A person killing any game or wildlife under this subchapter shall report the event to an officer as soon as possible following the incident but in no case later than 24 hours, provide for safekeeping of the game or wildlife intact at the place where it was killed and be available for interview by the officer. The person killing the game or wildlife shall answer, without evasion, any pertinent questions of the officer making the investigation.   (c) Exoneration. - At the conclusion of any investigation when any game or wildlife is allegedly killed as protection to a person, the officer may exonerate the person for the otherwise unlawful killing of the game or wildlife. In all cases the officer shall seize and dispose of the game or wildlife as required by this title or upon instructions of the director.   (d) Prosecution. - Any officer making an investigation when game or wildlife was allegedly killed as a protection to a person shall proceed with prosecution as though the game or wildlife was unlawfully killed if the officer is dissatisfied with the explanation of the person killing the game or wildlife or if the physical facts of the killing do not support and sustain the facts alleged by the person killing the game or wildlife.   (e) Penalties. - A violation of this section relating to:   (1) Threatened or endangered species is a misdemeanor of the third degree.   (2) Elk or bear is a summary offense of the first degree.   (3) Deer is a summary offense of the second degree.   (4) Bobcat or otter is a summary offense of the third degree.   (5) Wild turkey or beaver is a summary offense of the fourth degree.   (6) Any other game or wildlife is a summary offense of the fifth degree
#43
bigtrout4x4
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RE: mountain lions in pa??? what do you think!! 2008/10/08 13:24:08 (permalink)
There are no mountain lions in Pennsylvania, period. And oh by the way--If you shoot one and prove us wrong we will fine you heavily and may even put you in jail. Have a nice day. ---s-10


i see your very sure of what you say, what is with the WE will fine you heavily???  are you one of our truck sitting, binocular watching, afraid to get your boots muddy, waste of space, pennsylvania game commision officers,,,,, sorry just my opinion, but i have no respect for them!!!     

and for the ferel pigs, CAMBRIA COUNTY,  was one of the locations that the pigs are running wild, at first we were allowed to shoot them, helping the game commision out, but just recently the ferel pig populations have tripled and more and more are getting hit by cars on our major highways, ive come to find out that the good ole pa game commision has made it illegal to kill a ferel pig in the pennsylvania borders, pagc is saying they are catching them in traps and the population is diminishing. AS FAR AS I CAN TELL, JUST MY OPINION AGAIN, THE PENNSYLVANIA GAME COMMISION HAS SEEN THE MIGHTY DOLLAR SIGN FLASH IN FRONT OF THERE EYES. soon we will see a new hunting season, one that will be for our ferel pig population, and we will have to pay for a seperate license... good thinkin commision!!!
post edited by bigtrout4x4 - 2008/10/08 13:25:13
#44
woodnickle
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RE: mountain lions in pa??? what do you think!! 2008/10/08 22:37:24 (permalink)
Just saw on clevelands news that there was a lion spotted in Ohio. Not suppose to be any there neither.

#45
S-10
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RE: mountain lions in pa??? what do you think!! 2008/10/09 09:58:15 (permalink)
Big--- Easy man, don't get your shorts in a knot. I was making a joke of the PGC's position on lions. BTW--If you,ve followed my posts I'am not a big fan of them since Alt and the HR/AR scam.
#46
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RE: mountain lions in pa??? what do you think!! 2008/10/09 13:39:21 (permalink)
I have photos of a set of tracks we found 3 years ago while snowshoe hunting that can be nothing other than cougar, from McKean Co.  Near Kane.
 
Also here is a twist to the endangered species part.
 
Historically there were thought to exist many distinct subspecies of mountain lion.  The one of intrest in our area being Puma concolor cougar.  Three subspecies of the cougar have been listed as endangered under the endangered species act, the Florida panther Puma concolor coryi , The Costarican panther Puma concolor costaricensis and the afore mentioned Puma concolor cougar (Eastern Cougar). 
 
Hence if a cougar was shot and determined to be of a western strain then it could not be a threatened/endangered species, and subject to fine under the endangered species act.
 
Here is where it becomes interesting, taxonimists are beginning to waver on the subspecies classification system, due to recent genetic study, so if it is eventually determined that there are no subspecies and that all north american cats are of the same family, how do they protect florida populations and still hunt western populations?
 
I believe a good lawyer ( I hate lawyers by the way), could have a field day with an attempt to fine someone who shot one.

Better too far back, than too far forward.
#47
pghmarty
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RE: mountain lions in pa??? what do you think!! 2008/10/09 14:44:13 (permalink)
GurU haz one in hiz frEezer.
guna git it munted


#48
Fishtamer
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RE: mountain lions in pa??? what do you think!! 2008/10/09 15:02:02 (permalink)
Just to clarify. When I say mt. lion, I may not be using proper terminology. I don't differentiate between mt. lions & cougars. Sorry if I offended any biologists.
#49
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RE: mountain lions in pa??? what do you think!! 2008/10/09 16:09:38 (permalink)
No offense Fishtamer, Puma concolor has over 70 common names throughout north america, more than any other species, thought to be due to it being the most widespread mammal in north america.

Better too far back, than too far forward.
#50
Laurelfork
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RE: mountain lions in pa??? what do you think!! 2008/10/09 20:57:32 (permalink)
People have lived in the heart of lion country live for 90 years and never seen a lion. They are ghosts.
 
That being said, Pa. has some of the best wildlife biologists in the world, look at your steelhead program and I think you will agree. They are in the field every day looking at scat, kills and tracks. They also know those who have captive lion permits, where they are kept and thus where they have been let go or escaped.
 
If they could identify a resident lion population,  believe me they would do so for professional recogintion as well as the for the dollars the feds would send in.
 
It is about a reproducing population and it ain't there, I think.
#51
SPIKER
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RE: mountain lions in pa??? what do you think!! 2008/10/10 08:01:29 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: MuskyMastr

I have photos of a set of tracks we found 3 years ago while snowshoe hunting that can be nothing other than cougar, from McKean Co.  Near Kane.

Also here is a twist to the endangered species part.

Historically there were thought to exist many distinct subspecies of mountain lion.  The one of intrest in our area being Puma concolor cougar.  Three subspecies of the cougar have been listed as endangered under the endangered species act, the Florida panther Puma concolor coryi , The Costarican panther Puma concolor costaricensis and the afore mentioned Puma concolor cougar (Eastern Cougar). 

Hence if a cougar was shot and determined to be of a western strain then it could not be a threatened/endangered species, and subject to fine under the endangered species act.

Here is where it becomes interesting, taxonimists are beginning to waver on the subspecies classification system, due to recent genetic study, so if it is eventually determined that there are no subspecies and that all north american cats are of the same family, how do they protect florida populations and still hunt western populations?

I believe a good lawyer ( I hate lawyers by the way), could have a field day with an attempt to fine someone who shot one.



GOOD POINT!
#52
SilverKype
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RE: mountain lions in pa??? what do you think!! 2008/10/10 08:22:12 (permalink)

My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
#53
SPIKER
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RE: mountain lions in pa??? what do you think!! 2008/10/10 09:31:22 (permalink)
WOW,looks like we might have a confirmed kill!!!!!
#54
rollcaster
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RE: mountain lions in pa??? what do you think!! 2008/10/10 10:54:34 (permalink)



Good article, I would say that thay are here mabey not many but some. I never saw one myself but there is alot of woods out there , some unexplored. I dont know whats up with the game com but every time you here of one they seam to try to cover it up quick. In the artile they said 8' long 3' tails hard to confuse that with a bobcat or fox. I for one hope I never see one, too close anyway!


#55
Deadbolt401
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RE: mountain lions in pa??? what do you think!! 2008/10/10 11:29:11 (permalink)
I'd love to buy that guy a beer and a shot and hear his story.

The only thing that sucks, is that were going to have to kill a few of them to prove their existance.

These animals are awesome looking, it'd be nuts to see one walk past your treestand.



Not saying I wouldn't, Because believe me I'd drop one. Just sucks something has to die in order for the game commission to admit they're real and here.
#56
rollcaster
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RE: mountain lions in pa??? what do you think!! 2008/10/10 12:16:13 (permalink)



As many sightings as there are I would say its only a matter of time till some one kills one. Mabey somebody already did and got paid off . That would not suprise me. I dont know how people can say there not here for sure,  with all the sightings there are. Not every one that said they seen one is an idiot ,most hunters would know the difference I hope. I just think there are very few of them, and the ones that are here learned how to avoid people. Wonder how many lions watch people without them even knowing it. They see us more than we see them I would say.


#57
Fishtamer
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RE: mountain lions in pa??? what do you think!! 2008/10/10 15:32:50 (permalink)
THERE HERE !!!!!!
#58
SPIKER
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RE: mountain lions in pa??? what do you think!! 2008/10/10 15:45:18 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Deadbolt401

I'd love to buy that guy a beer and a shot and hear his story.



Maybe that was the problem he didnt shoot straight!
#59
bigtrout4x4
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RE: mountain lions in pa??? what do you think!! 2008/10/10 18:05:50 (permalink)
great article, its funny how nothing was said since that took place,, haha,,,, hmm can someone say COVER UP
good job silverkype..
#60
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