Boats that sink? 
joedirt
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Boats that sink?
I know this might be a dumb question, but what happens to the boats that sink to the bottom? I've read about the three men losing their lives. My prayers and thoughts go out to the families. Its a terrible thing.
In this case they were in the water a while before being pulled out. they had to drift away from where the boat sank. What happens in a case like this? I know some boats will still float even up to the gun walls if it has the right flotation built in. Does any one salvage the boats from the bottom?
"Life is a garden, Dig It"
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Big Fathead
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RE: Boats that sink?
2008/09/07 21:46:23
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Not sure what happens to them But, there was a security broadcast from Buffalo NY with coordinates of a 19 foot tracker floating upside down Saturday afternoon. I would imagine sooner or later someone would recover the boats that are afloat.
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hivue05
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RE: Boats that sink?
2008/09/08 05:29:06
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Question, having never been on the big lakes. Would a Boston Whaler
make a good boat for the Great Lakes?
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Blowchowski
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RE: Boats that sink?
2008/09/08 08:00:53
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Boston Whalers don't sink!!! Love that boat! My kids tool around in a 13. As for the boat, that goes turtle, or under, the Coast Guard broadcast a " hazard to navigation" if it has a reliable position on the hull. As for the recovery of the hull, this is an area where the wild west still lives. One can "salvage" the boat and come in possession of it, and recover tow fee's, plus a significant % value of the hull- if the boat is worth a crap from the insurance company. Maritime law applies. Unless its termed a "salvage" its just a tow. Here's a link: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQK/is_2_7/ai_84029150
post edited by Blowchowski - 2008/09/08 16:00:29
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Carpet Bagger 
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RE: Boats that sink?
2008/09/08 08:49:38
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A whaler wont sink....but it will sure flip....
CB I never thought I'd say this, but I love my Sport-Craft!
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Blowchowski
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RE: Boats that sink?
2008/09/08 09:07:09
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ORIGINAL: Carpet Bagger
A whaler wont sink....but it will sure flip....
Yea. you're right. A bayliner will flip-AND sink. So whats your point?
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pghmarty
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RE: Boats that sink?
2008/09/08 14:16:22
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Would a Boston Whaler
make a good boat for the Great Lakes?
NO 
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pghmarty
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RE: Boats that sink?
2008/09/08 14:17:44
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ORIGINAL: hivue05
Question, having never been on the big lakes. Would a Boston Whaler
make a good boat for the Great Lakes?
Yes 
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indsguiz
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RE: Boats that sink?
2008/09/08 14:46:23
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Gentlemen,
Had to relate this experience that happened to my family once. We were it the thousand islands and were fishing the lee side of one of the major islands. We were aware that the wave height could vary as much as 4 feet between the channel and the lee side so when we went around the island we would slow down. Well one day we were passed by a bass boat going way too fast and when he turned the corner of the island into the channel, close by the shipping lanes, there just happened to have been a rather large ship passing right before we both turned the corner of the island. We took spray over the bow of our 22 foot boat. The bass boat turned into an instant submarine. Center punched the wake/waves and cleaned both guys out of the boat. The boat did stay afloat and we pulled the guys out of the water (the one guy said it was like being slapped, real hard) and towed them and the boat back to shore. Turns out they had never been on the st. lawrence before and had no idea what to expect. They thought it was all calm like the back bays.
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earlysecond
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RE: Boats that sink?
2008/09/08 15:29:25
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Ok,
Now it is my turn to open up a can of worms (a recent specailty on here). What, exactly, in your, experienced, opinion constitutes a "seaworthy" Great Lakes boat that can handle all but the deadliest of conditions? I am not looking for a brand name. A style and size with an appropriately sized motor. I realize that there are days when nobody should leave the safe harbours. I also know that conditions can change pretty quickly. As far as my question goes, how about a 20' deep V styled boat with no cabin a 100hpish outboard and a good bilge pump? (I am honestly not trying to be funny or start a huge debate) I am considering the fact that I spent 3 days this summer on the Lake Erie in a 16ft aluminum V boat and was not really comfortable nor did I feel overly safe. We had no problems other than observing how tough it is to motor out of a big trough only to fall off the other side!
I may want to purchase a Great Lakes style boat, I would have to tow it a long distance to get on the lake, I just cannot, in my mind, think of what would be SAFE and Comfortable.
Thanks,
Brent
PS- it is a shame that there is any loss of life on Erie. It happens though, obviously. What could go so wrong? How can a person drown with an approved floatation device properly worn. (yeah exposure but I am not sure that I get the whole picture)
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Carpet Bagger
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RE: Boats that sink?
2008/09/08 16:04:24
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ORIGINAL: Blowchowski
ORIGINAL: Carpet Bagger
A whaler wont sink....but it will sure flip....
Yea. you're right. A bayliner will flip-AND sink. So whats your point?
Point being simply this. A boat sinking or not sinking has nothing to do with saving a life. A boston whaler is also not the only boat made that is not capable of sinking (its just marketed that way) this includes alot of modern bass and walleye boats. Any boat that uses foam to support their striger grid and or decks generally will not sink, and that includes Boston whaler and yes the newer line of Trophy boats (in fact they are made by the same company). The men who drown off conneaut were simply using a boat not capable of handling the conditions of Lake Erie and paid the ultimate price. The boat they were in also did not sink from what I understand. In fact from what I was told, they found 2 of the 3 men with the overturned boat bass boa Now as far as safety is concerned, I dont know about you, but if my boat capsized in 4-7ft seas and i was sent adrift in a life vest, I would just assume the boat sank...last thing I would want to see is a 4000+lb overturned boat surfing a 6ft wave directly at me in my life vest, floating on the surface, and my waterlogged clothing preventing me from swimming away. Sounds pretty frightening if you ask me. Is a Boston Whaler a good boat. Absolutly, they are very impresseve! They are made with some of the finest construction and engineering available in the marine market. But the point being just cause it has Boston Whaler on the side doesnt mean you are invinceable on any body of water. On seaworthyness, A boat is just a machine, and doesnt care about you, and will not save your life if you make an error. However putting yourself in a machine where you, the controller, are less likely to make an error is key. Having a boat capable of taking rougher water and steep short chop like Lake Erie is famous for, is alot more important than any name on the hull. High freeboard, sharp entry, deadrise of more than 15 degrees, and enough power to get you through the snotty days, are generally a good rule of thumb when deciding what type of boat you want for the Great Lakes. There are days you could run a 14ft row boat out there and other days where I wouldnt take a 40ft boat out there. As far as a bayliner flipping...your are right, it will flip and sink in the right conditions...But I've come in in 6-7ft seas and am still here to tell you that it was no fun....Newer Trophy boats relate the the Bayliner name about as much as Boston Whaler does.
CB I never thought I'd say this, but I love my Sport-Craft!
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fishbreath
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RE: Boats that sink?
2008/09/08 16:05:17
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ORIGINAL: earlysecond
Ok,
Now it is my turn to open up a can of worms (a recent specailty on here). What, exactly, in your, experienced, opinion constitutes a "seaworthy" Great Lakes boat that can handle all but the deadliest of conditions? I am not looking for a brand name. A style and size with an appropriately sized motor. I realize that there are days when nobody should leave the safe harbours. I also know that conditions can change pretty quickly. As far as my question goes, how about a 20' deep V styled boat with no cabin a 100hpish outboard and a good bilge pump? (I am honestly not trying to be funny or start a huge debate) I am considering the fact that I spent 3 days this summer on the Lake Erie in a 16ft aluminum V boat and was not really comfortable nor did I feel overly safe. We had no problems other than observing how tough it is to motor out of a big trough only to fall off the other side!
Thanks,
Brent
You're on the right track already. A fiberglass boat is heavier than the same size aluminum so it will ride a bit smoother, but needs more horsepower to achieve similar performance. Every foot you put on in the same boat line should add to your sense of security, and also to your sense of poverty. Sounds like you'd feel better with higher sides, if you wind up with a bowrider, be sure to have canvas on the front; I've buried the nose a few times, it's good to see the lake run off instead of sloshing around inside. Take the canvas off in good weather for more room. In addition to a bilge pump, my present boat has scuppers so water can run out of the cockpit, great idea, been around forever, but not always found on runabouts. Try hard for a kicker motor. It will save gas, and if you breakdown out there it'll get you in. And you'll feel more secure.
Nothing wrong with brand names, but they run the whole spectrum from Grady White (like an overpriced BMW, high quality, higher price) , to Spectrums, Bayliners and god knows what else. You get what you pay for. Be leery of anyone who says they just bought a xxxxx and it's the best boat out there. Really ? What else could they say.
It's fall, there are some deals to be found.
Anyways' I've been a boat owner on Lake Erie for 48 years, making me one very old fart. Last few years I've been floating in a 21' Seaswirl Striper w a 150 Evinrude and have been very satisfied.
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Blowchowski
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RE: Boats that sink?
2008/09/08 16:18:51
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fishbreath, good advice. I started out with a 19' bow rider on erie, and the only thing I'll add to that is the bow cover should have something solid under it to prevent a "blow-in" of the cover should you get in a position that the bow gets stuffed. As far as brands go, its mostly a Ford, Chevy thing.
post edited by Blowchowski - 2008/09/08 16:25:01
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fishbreath
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RE: Boats that sink?
2008/09/08 16:21:12
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If your boat swamps or overturns, try your ****est to stay with the boat. When doing search and rescue on a few thousand square miles of water it's much easier to spot a hull than a head bobbing in the waves. If you bottom paint your boat, avoid blue or white to be found quickly if overturned, try a loud color that contrasts with the water, not matches it. i knew a guy in the Carribean who painted his cigarette boat bottom pink.
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Carpet Bagger
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RE: Boats that sink?
2008/09/08 16:57:22
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ORIGINAL: Blowchowski
fishbreath, good advice. I started out with a 19' bow rider on erie, and the only thing I'll add to that is the bow cover should have something solid under it to prevent a "blow-in" of the cover should you get in a position that the bow gets stuffed. As far as brands go, its mostly a Ford, Chevy thing.
Ford Chevy thing?!? Come on you have to know of more than 10 Excellent Manufactures of Great Lakes fishing boats. If not I can enlighten you on a few. I can probaly name atleast 20 boats that I am considering as my next boat, none of which being trophy, baha cruisers, sport-craft, penn yan, thompson. If you want to look at some good High Quality big water boats heres my list: Top 3 builders: Steiger Craft 255 or 26, Parker 2510, and Judge Yachts 27 Chesapeake The rest: May-Craft, Pro-Line, Hydra-Sport, Striper, Contender, SeaCraft, Albemarle, Carolina Classic, Eastern, Shamrock, Boston Whaler, Grady White, Mckee Craft, Luhrs, Pacific (or Black Lab), Pursuit, Tiara, Bertram, Scout, Sailfish, Cape Horn, Yellowfin, and I really could keep on going
CB I never thought I'd say this, but I love my Sport-Craft!
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Blowchowski
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RE: Boats that sink?
2008/09/08 17:14:50
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Don't get your knickers in a knot! All manufacturers have their place in the market place! In fact- you contradicted yourself with your earlier post! You said: "A boston whaler is also not the only boat made that is not capable of sinking (its just marketed that way) this includes alot of modern bass and walleye boats. Any boat that uses foam to support their striger grid and or decks generally will not sink, and that includes Boston whaler and yes the newer line of Trophy boats (in fact they are made by the same company). " Then you said: "Newer Trophy boats relate the the Bayliner name about as much as Boston Whaler does. " They're all held by parent company Brunswick!!!!!!!!! including Bayliner!!!!! http://www.brunswick.com/brands/marine-boats/ Are you going to tell a guy who owns a Cabo "Yea, its the same thing as a Bayliner?" Better yet tell the Lund guys here their boat is the same thing as a lowe! I'd pay to see that one! +disclaimer---I fully recognize these manufacturers have their place in the market place, so before you pile on me, remember that! There are some I personally wouldn't own, but given the proof that they're out there catching fish, makes me stand firm in my statement. You don't know what this guys price point is, you don't know how often he'll fish, you don't know if he's considering re-sale, etc. etc,. So lighten up already. OK? _____________________________
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Blowchowski
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RE: Boats that sink?
2008/09/08 17:19:23
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earlysecond, the autopsy reports confirm the guys deaths were due to drowning. When you're winded and suck water a few times... God, that must have been awful.
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indsguiz
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RE: Boats that sink?
2008/09/08 17:35:51
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Guys,
While it has been years since I was last out on the lake. I will add, that just in my opinion, nothing less than a deep V with a closed stern, i/o or ob, in at least 20' is a safe boat and makes me feel comfortable on the big water. I prefer something inboard, high gunnels, with a closed bow or cuddy cabin, in a mid hp rating. I avoid the open stern outboard types with a passion, for the same reason that I dislike bowriders. I prefer the outboards that actually have a full height bulkhead between the cabin and the motor to the type that have a cutout for the engine. I've seen water come in over the cutout when running/trolling with the waves. You can never be too careful. But then again I've had folks complain about having to reach over high sides to get a fish in the boat. Use a longer net.
Illegitimis Non carborundum
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Blowchowski
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RE: Boats that sink?
2008/09/08 17:52:41
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Joedirt, sorry about the hijacking of your thread.
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Carpet Bagger
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RE: Boats that sink?
2008/09/08 17:54:22
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A self draining cockpit is also pretty much a must have if you do take on water ever.
CB I never thought I'd say this, but I love my Sport-Craft!
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earlysecond
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RE: Boats that sink?
2008/09/08 22:58:18
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I apologize the most to the OP for hijacking this thread. In that same spirit. I did not want this post to turn into an "I own brand xyz boat and it is the best, I would not be caught dead in anything else" post. Yeah, you most always get what you pay for. That being said, if I bought a boat it would NOT be new. . .kinda like buying new cars, I gave that practice up 4 years ago and have never looked back. I WAS looking for some basic, input on boat designs/hull lengths that could be considered fairly safe for the big pond. I have not ever researched this issue, do not know where to start and will NOT start by looking at new boat sales brocheures!!
If anybody has additional advice and it is appropriate to continue here then that is all good. If not we can let it die.
It is a shame that anybody drowned. I fully understand that when your lungs fill will water that you are unable to clear, oxygen exchange cannot happen at the micro capillary level, in this case the alveloi. HOWEVER, if you don an approved flotation device, is there a certain wave height that will be deadly? I am not asking stupid questions to be silly or smart, I am asking because I do not know and have never and hope never to try surviving a boating accident. If I ever got to spend more time on Erie or any other larger body of water. . .I want to make sure that I have given myself every opportunity to return safely to shore. I love fishing but not quite as much as living (well almost).
Anyway, I hope that my question was not misunderstood. I honestly just want to learn. Obviously, one trip to Lake Erie created more questions for me than it answered.
Brent
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Carpet Bagger
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RE: Boats that sink?
2008/09/08 23:32:02
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Best bet is if you are worried about your PFD get yourself the type 1 vests previously mentioned in the post. They are designed to keep your head above water if you are knocked out. There are pretty much endless options of boats and equipment suitable for the ocean and most are perfectly enough to handle the great lakes....
As Blowchowski mentioned, you hit the water in 6ft waves you are gonna eat some water...PFD or not it still can be deadly or atleast life threatening hitting the water in those conditions.
CB I never thought I'd say this, but I love my Sport-Craft!
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joedirt
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RE: Boats that sink?
2008/09/09 00:23:17
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No apologies needed. I say let the thread go where it may. I have learned a lifetime of valuable information from you guys. I thank all of you. It is a terrible thing that happened to those guys. But let me tell you, and I hate to say it, it probably wont be the last lives that are lost. I know by joining this forum, asking questions and getting honest opinions from everyone, though many times they differ from one another, probably has saved my life and many other readers lives as well. The proof is im still here typing. I took a wave over the bow last year, and if it was not for the advice of several members pleading for me to invest in a bow cover for my boat, I probably would not be here. I was trolling in front of the mouth of walnut last year. There was 5' waves coming from the north. I was doing fine. Catching some steel and feeling comfortable. Until I made the mistake of turning north at the end of a run and right smack into a 5+ footer. Bow mount trolling motor and fish finder totaly disapeared. The wave went up over the windsheild and beminie top. I learned that day you can not put a price on safety and most important you can not put a price on your life. So again I thank all of you for your opinons and let the threads go where they may, and may the Good Lord be watching over all of us the next time we are on the water
post edited by joedirt - 2008/09/09 00:25:00
"Life is a garden, Dig It"
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Big Fathead
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RE: Boats that sink?
2008/09/09 00:47:26
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I would like to add if your going to trailer a boat and you want something a little lighter, a little older and alot less expensive to run look for a Crestliner all welded Sabre. These boats are great even in the 19 foot line (One of the few 19 foot boats I would take out there). I would definetly look at a deep V, Make sure it has plenty of power (don't need to use it but sure is nice is rough seas when you need it), The more freeboard the better, Closed bow a must, A hardtop very nice to shed the water that comes over the front, keeps you dry, and is very comfortable in wet conditions and sunny conditions ( I wouldn't own another Erie boat without a hardtop), Enough room for you and your crew, Before I bought a boat I would check out some of the boats at the docks in Erie, Don't be afraid to ask questions to other boat owners, and this site will give you great information(along with some agruing and bu****it!), The boats I like for Erie are Sportcraft, Baha, Thompson, Trophy, Penn Yan, Pursuit/Tiara, Crestliner Sabre, Lund/Genmar Hardtop, Proline, Sea Pro, Wellcraft, Grady White, Boston Whaler, and many more. If you have a truck that can pull between 5000-8000 pounds I would look at 24-26 foot fiberglass boats.(ride is much nicer than aluminum) You can look up hull weight on NADA.COM as well as values. If you buy a glass boat pre 1995 check the stringers, transom, floors, and bulkheads for rot. A marine survey is always a good investment if you or someone you know doesn't have the knowledge to check for rot.(Rot is the biggest downfall with glass boats, can be very expensive to repair), There are a ton of good rough water boats out there just gotta find one you like best!
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Carpet Bagger
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RE: Boats that sink?
2008/09/09 01:09:17
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Steiger Craft All Hand Layed Fiberglass Hull and Stringers (filled with closed cell foam) they build 120 boats a year and have been in business since 1972... Lifetime Transferable warrenty on the Hull, Deck, Cockpit Liners, Consoles, and Topsides. Nothing to rot away in this guy... 26' X 10', 22 degrees of deadrise with reverse chines, Hardtop, 500 HP, No Frills, Strictly Fishing, Built like a Tank (all glass 8400lbs DRY!)....Woof...Now Thats a Boat! Drool Away...Im saving my pennies...lol  
post edited by Carpet Bagger - 2008/09/09 01:17:39
CB I never thought I'd say this, but I love my Sport-Craft!
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jon_e_si
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RE: Boats that sink?
2008/09/09 05:15:06
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I'll add my 3 cents! All boats/ships can sink - Remember the Edmund Fitzgerald, Titanic, et als???
I can remember steaming north in the Mediterranean on one of Uncle Sam's big ships, having the cover (leeward side) of the islands of Sardinia & Corsica! Once we got out of the shelter of the islands, we started taking big swells and the smaller flat bottomed (LST'S, LSD'S) ships left the formation, while we continued on course. To this day, I can remember one GIANT swell coming at us and the main deck rising up and then heading for Davy Jone's Locker - fortunately - we did not "over-ride our moment of "G"" (gravity) and survived, but you should have heard the noise, etc. - file cabinets spilled, dishes etc. scattered, movie projectors flipped, and so on - very good learning experience! Needless to say, we changed course too! In the "old days" the Navy used to ride out storms (hurricanes no less) as a test of "seamanship" - until they lost 5 destroyers and several hundred lives during a hurricane after WWII!!
My point is always respect the power (hydraulic) of the sea (lake). It's much stronger than anything man can make, and occasionally GOD lets us know that!
To tell on myself, two weeks ago Monday, mine was the sole trailer in Walnut parking lot, but it was a nice day and I had come to fish. I launched my 16'er (90hp) and proceeded slowly to find the perch, which I did, and returned slowly! There were easily 5&6's, but the boat (deep V) could handle it, as long as I didn't force the issue. I wore a lifejacket the whole time and had others nearby! (I would have turned back, if I thought I couldn't handle it, but???) My wife asked why I did it? My response, "because I can" but I wasn't sure how much longer I would be able! The big "IF" in all this is what if something fails to operate??? pump? engine? batteries, etc.??? Turned out to be a nice day on the water!
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Brad1
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RE: Boats that sink?
2008/09/09 08:32:14
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There are two types of floation that I'm aware of. Basic (positive) floation and level upright floation. Basic floation means that if the boat were to fill with water, it could not go to the bottom. There might not be much of it sticking up above the water line, but it will not sink entirely. All boats 20 foot and under are required to have basic floation. On the other hand, level upright floation means that should the boat fill with water (swamp) it should still likely (under most circumstances) stay upright and level. Could it still flip? Of course it could. For example in an extremely heavy sea, a very large wave could flip it over. But under most circumstances, it will stay upright. It is not self righting (something all together different).
Boston Whalers have level upright floation. Most other brands do not. Grady White (what I have), Trophy, Proline, Hydra Sports, etc. etc. etc. . . . all have basic floation. These brands of boats are not in the same class regarding floation as Boston Whaler. Other brands which I believe have level upright floation are Edgewater, Everglades, Cape Horn, Pacific and McKee Craft.
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woodnickle
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RE: Boats that sink?
2008/09/09 09:19:18
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Carpet-that is a sweet looking boat! Had a 24 Thompson and it was too small. Bigger is better for sure.
Brad, the Grady,s are great boats. Have fished out of one many times and they can really handle the water. But then again ., bigger is better,
The Boston Whaler is unsinkable, but that doesn,t mean they won,t take on water.
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earlysecond
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RE: Boats that sink?
2008/09/09 09:39:18
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Thanks guys, especially joedirt for being cool with the hijack!
Lots of good information. Note to self, to do proper reasearch on this subject will take a very long time. Not doing reseach and "assuming" that you know enough could be deadly.
Ironically, while I was typing more questions. The newspaper came out with an article that 1 man out of 2 who capsized in a canoe on Raystown Dam (where we were attempting to fish Sunday (comedy of erroros which makes a long story)) drowned. The reason that he drowned is that the canoe did not contain any lifevests. The sad thing is that this happened 80FEET from the shoreline. I believe that Raystown is a little warmer than Erie right now. This accident is almost as unbelievable as the one we are discussing on Erie. I guess that part of my amazement is that it can happen, obviously fast and is deadly.
I will continue to ask, often ignorant appearing questions as this is how I learn. Thanks so much to everybody who took a minute on here to educate me and the many others who will read it.
Brent
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Big Fathead
Expert Angler
- Total Posts : 915
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- Joined: 2006/04/04 21:41:12
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RE: Boats that sink?
2008/09/09 09:45:51
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Thats sure is a nice boat BUT it is NOT TRAILERABLE, Which most guys are looking for. The maximum width you are allowed to trailer is 102" or 8'6" without a permit for each state you would pull the boat through. I had a Thompson 260 that had a 10' beam and never got caught towing it but it would get very expensive if one was caught doing so. The permit is basically impossible to acquire UNLESS you have commercial insurance for towing. The permits are not real expensive but they will not issue one without the insurance.
post edited by Big Fathead - 2008/09/10 10:25:33
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