Egg Take post

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waDerboy
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RE: Egg Take post 2008/01/04 03:15:46 (permalink)
So then every salmon in the river before it dropped to 60 died? Those fish in the hatchery ladder in early mid Oct were of 0% value in the final egg tally. Not 1% viability?
Didn't the DEC say that running more SR water would have messed up the hatchery water harming fish already being reared as Loran posted?
How would the water above Pineville have been more leathal than the water around Pulaski? Wouldn't the water downstream be even warmer since it was running so shallow with the sun on it all the way down river making it more leathal to have fish hold down there? Not to mention that having them all schooled up made finding them and giving them a workout (read stressing them under high temp conditions) much easier than if they were spread out throughout the river.
#31
King Davy
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RE: Egg Take post 2008/01/04 10:09:29 (permalink)
There is some discussions by DEC...that many salmon probably because of the low water.....and warmer temps didn't even try and get to the hatchery. That maybe more fish dropped out of the system and spawned in the esturary. Way less redds observed all the way up to the hatchery then in past years. ...by Dr Mike and his team. The DEC staff handled far less fish. As far as eye up eggs...nobody said they weren't viable even in the warm temps...just not as high a % as usual.(about 20% less on average)  They usually take 3 million eggs to get 1.8 million smolts.  Even with eye up egg success at Mid 80's %. They usually get that many in a week
 
Nobody has mentioned...this but DEC did seek eggs from Michigan...and good ol Michigan offered eggs... Michigan was dealing with warmer temps that stress the fish ....DEC insisted the eggs be tested for BKD since it's a known stress related problem..and low and behold...they tested positive. So of course DEC declined the eggs.
 
That would have been a TRUE disaster. Short fall on eggs...IMHO...not so much.
#32
salmotrutta
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RE: Egg Take post 2008/01/04 13:11:17 (permalink)
It was a pathetic year. Lets hope for more rain this year.
Let us not forget that drought was probably a major factor in Nestle not putting the pumping station in. That alone is worth a few Salmon. Lets hope for better flows next year. Just enough water so the snaggers can't get to them...

Lyrical
#33
waDerboy
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RE: Egg Take post 2008/01/04 16:03:12 (permalink)
Warm temps no doubt played a part in the fish not running as usual but the line up of "anglers" from the fair grounds down into the estuary played a significent part also. The fish that weren'trun around on a line and stressed in those high temp waters had to weave thier way though a series of wader legs since even the deepest spots were easily waded (and stood in) by the entire amount of fishers that made the trip. I believe this because the 1 day I went fishing it was above Pineville and I didn't have another angler in sight the whole time but when I drove downriver I never fished again because to me every place I saw was too crowded.
If the DEC can allow people to keep foul hooked fish (for the purpose of egg taking) why could they not have imposed a no kill moritorium (other than protests from the local business community) on the whole river. While many would still come to fish the pure meat fishers would not and that in itself would have allowed more fish to travel upriver.
I am still confused as to how the release of water in the SR could affect fish being reared in the hatchery.
Could the reason for less redds upriver be because they didn't do anything to try and get the fish upriver? No kill and a small nightly surge of water may well have increased the number of fish and redds in the upper river.
How many eggs do they get from an average hen? 3-5000. If its lets say 3000 and they had taken steps to get 100 more hens to the hatchery (even in 65-70 degree water) that would be 300000 eggs. Even with a 20% viability that would add 60,000 eyed eggs to the total while fish in car trunks on thier way out of state added 0. At 65% viability it would be 195,000 eyed eggs.
PS- I just did a quick google and it said 3000-14000 from a hen king so my numbers were based on the low egg of the spectrum.
post edited by waDerboy - 2008/01/04 17:03:44
#34
Troy
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RE: Egg Take post 2008/01/04 18:43:28 (permalink)
Here is my take that I posted on some other sites after the meeting.
 
I attended the annual DEC stakeholder's meeting in Waterloo. The Chinook Egg Collection, among other things was discussed and here is what we were told:

Steve LaPan and other DEC biologists indicated that the real problem was that water temps did not drop below 60-degrees until October 17th, a full week later than normal egg collections would have begun. Egg development depends on the water getting cold. He said that while more water flow would have been nice--he doubts it would have helped. Egg "eye-up" normally averages about 84 % this year they are looking at only 65% for Chinook eggs and Coho Eye-up was even worse at only 15% when they usually get 43%.

There was, is and will be a lot of DEC bashing over the egg issue in the next three years. I believe what Steve LaPan and the other DEC biologists told us about the water temps and how it effects Chinook and Coho egg maturation. No where in the Great Lakes is egg development going well. All states and Canada are seeing high mortality rates and our fish haven't even hatched yet.

Only time will tell how many salmon we will have to catch in 2010 and regardless, we will all be here discussing high and lows. Let us all roll with the punches and do our best to put a positive spin on whatever we can. In 1995 the DEC only stocked 1 million Chinooks and we had one the best adult years classes in the history of Lake O salmon fishing. The DEC may take additional steelhead eggs in the spring and stock more steelhead. How about that for positive? There will be better water circulation for the Chinooks in the hatchery and the hatchery personnel can spread things out and there will be no crowding. We may see larger fish in 2010 as there will not be the competition for food. All good things to talk about.

The worse thing that can happen is for somebody to go off and post negatives on websites and give news reporters something to dig their teeth into. We have all seen how fast negative campaigns get circulated from one newspaper in Pa to another in Ct.

While a lot of us depend on the fishery for our living, recreational anglers will feel the pain as well if more budget cuts are instituted due to a decrease in license sales. Right now there is a 21 million dollar deficit in the conservation fund!! If less people purchase licenses( which is already happening) we will lose more valuable programs.
It is important for all of us to promote our fishery in a positive way. We still have the best fishing in all of the Great lakes in terms of diversity, size of our salmon, overall numbers and public access.
Time to step up and do your part. Will you??
#35
salmotrutta
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RE: Egg Take post 2008/01/04 21:46:34 (permalink)
Thanks for dropping in Troy. Any fish where I saw you that day in the rain?
If they're that far in debt they should raise out of staters license fees. Let's face it- as a PA resident a license, trout & lake Erie stamp it's almost $40. A N/R New York License is $40 a year- period. They could charge a little more...
I don't think anyone has said to not fish there. It's a great fishery. No question it's as good as it gets here in the East. I am kinda ****ed I don't get up there more. I don't even have time to fish right over the hill from my house at the moment!

Lyrical
#36
JeffL
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RE: Egg Take post 2008/01/04 23:45:13 (permalink)
This is my honest take on it. I don't think many fish made it past the ballpark this year. I fished in mid Sept for 2 days this year. When hooked the fish would make its initial run then float belly up back down to me. With the amount of pressure and the very low water making people "salmon crazy" (no pun intended) Most of these fish left on stringers and the rest ended up on the river bottom. The guantlet that they have to run is incredible and in prime time with 99% of the anglers stacked out ball park and below these fish didn't stand a chance. 
#37
waDerboy
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RE: Egg Take post 2008/01/05 03:34:28 (permalink)
Troy I see no reason to put spin on it of any kind and it seems to me that the DEC is doing a lot of spinning. It seems they are throwing a bunch of speggetti at the wall to see what will stick. Bringing up that increaed water flow might have harmed fish already being reared is a smoke screen and nothing more. The SR runs near the hatchery but even at 25000cfs it does not flow into the hatchery tanks warming them.
While egg eye up was low due to water temps more fish up river (even in those temps) would have given more fish therefore more eggs to start the process with.
They took no steps to help this occur. As was stated here in another post fish were not getting past the swarms of anglers ion the lower portion of the river were the fish were. Each fish taken home was 1 less for milking.
Unless questioning has now become bashing I see no bashing in wanting to know the real reason DEC acted or didn't act as they did. Knowing the answers might just decide how I vote in the next election. Do I support the person that puts people in place that allow this? Not talking about long time DEC personel but the appointies at the top that did not respond to me when I contacted them via Email early on and now are running the spin campaign.
#38
Troy
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RE: Egg Take post 2008/01/05 16:30:45 (permalink)
I can't debate this as my schedule does not allow any time for that.
The only thing the DEC could have done to get more fish to the hatchery would have been to close the season.
Imagine That!!
Who could have anticipated the fish not making it to the hatchery. Who could have prepared for the warmest temp and lowest flow year in history. Now they know.
I can't understand how individuals can write web postings questioning the DEC and this spectacular sportifishery, and then complain about declining angler effort, bad ethics lack of law enforcement and poor performance in the fishery. 
Wouldn't it be better to work more closely with the guys in charge and work towards a common goal - keeping the Lake Ontario sportfishery what it is; one of the very best in North America. 
 
Any fish where I saw you that day in the rain?
Sorry, not sure where you mean, one days runs into the other.
#39
salmotrutta
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RE: Egg Take post 2008/01/05 17:59:14 (permalink)
Was back in Oct. @ the can hole. There were many fish around there at that time.

Lyrical
#40
salmotrutta
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RE: Egg Take post 2008/01/05 18:13:24 (permalink)
This debate could go on for ever. I guess the best thing to do is keep sending emails, or get a meeting with someone.
We predicted a year of carnage, and that's what happened. Hope for a few more 30 pounders when this years eggs come back. Better yet- bigger Trouts.

Lyrical
#41
hot tuna
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RE: Egg Take post 2008/01/05 22:58:07 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: salmotrutta

We predicted a year of carnage, and that's what happened.


 
admit it or not.
the bulk of it was below DSR , think about it .....

"whats that smell like fish oh baby" .. J. Kaukonen
#42
waDerboy
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RE: Egg Take post 2008/01/06 11:27:03 (permalink)
Sorry you are right. Never question! Tricky****was not a crook. He was president and said so therefore it must have been the truth. Slick Willey did not have sex with that woman. I saw him look right into the camera and say it so it must have been true. More water running close to, but not closer than any other time, the hatchery would have had a negative impact on fish being reared in the hatchery.

#43
spoonchucker
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RE: Egg Take post 2008/01/06 12:00:26 (permalink)
waDer,
 
It's fine to question, but at some point one must accept the the answer or move on. Maybe they screwed up, maybe they did the best they could under the circumstances. I'm inclined to believe the latter. What would their motivation be, not to try and salvage as much as possible? When you are creating an artificial fishery a down year is inevitable, just as down years occur in natural fisheries. Yet after years of fantastic success, some would call for heads to roll over ONE year of poor preformance.

Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

Step Up, or Step Aside


The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody.

GL
#44
waDerboy
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RE: Egg Take post 2008/01/06 13:00:46 (permalink)
Spoon one bad year or one bad decision is of course not reason for heads to roll. Nature is nature and we all have to live and deal with it. But just as in all things public it is not the act but the cover up that is the problem. Instead of throwing out smokescreens an honest answer of something like WE DIDN'T EXPECT IT AND DIDN'T DEAL WITH IT VERY WELL would have gone a long way towards assuaging my doubts. I got zero answers to my personal Emails and then read bogus reasoning and snaggers being called gallant. That is the things heads roll for. That is why I as a New Yorker will have to decide if I vote for the Governor I helped elect last time and reason to publicly let them know this kind of action may contribute to his losing any bid for reelection. That is the only power I as a citizen have, the power of the ballot box, and before I use it I would like trhem to have a oppertunity to make amends, get it right and not make me vote against them. Letting them know it is a problem is the only way I have to get them to fix it before it is to late. After the election I will move on don't worry about that.
#45
FlashDance
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RE: Egg Take post 2008/01/06 18:34:06 (permalink)
I was at Burt in early November. While there was snagging going on, not all fish that they collected were snagged.
In fact, the snagging was no worse than usual. We fished below the dam in the back eddie and the guys fishing
that side were generally fishing legally. Once in a while a snagger would surface, but they generally moved
on rather quickly.

The three of us legally caught and turned over at least 13 salmon. I might have lost count, but the number really doesn't matter.

Here's what got my attention, and this has nothing to do with the DEC, but with the VOLUNTEERS who were helping out.
I caught 2 small kings. I was told, "Let them go, we don't want there genes in the mix."

Now, if they had plenty of eggs and milt, and there wasn't a shortage, I could understand this. But given the circumstances,
why were they being picky. Again, this fellow was NOT a DEC official, just a local club guy who was helping out.

It really didn't matter to me either way. I just found it interesting that this guy was turning down what appeared to me
to be a very viable fish.

All in all, maybe an 'off ' year isn't a bad thing. Maybe it will make some appreciate what they have and become a
little more conscience about their actions.
#46
salmotrutta
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RE: Egg Take post 2008/01/06 18:47:37 (permalink)
That sure is a pretty Hoho. Some day I'm gonna get one of those. When I was fishing with Gottum this past Oct. he caught a nice one with his centerpin.
Bad genes? Seems to me that would have more to do with what their food supply was where it lived in the lake, or they were Jacks.

Lyrical
#47
FlashDance
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RE: Egg Take post 2008/01/06 20:01:14 (permalink)
That pretty Hoho broke my rod !!! It was my fault for being a jackass and playing around.

The fish were ripe. They simply didn't want them.
#48
waDerboy
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RE: Egg Take post 2008/01/07 04:42:38 (permalink)
What do you all suppose the water temp was back in very early Sept 91. That is when during broard daylight under low water conditions the state record king salmon was moving upriver through the DSR area. I say this to show that given less angler pressure and an increase of flow at night salmon would have continued moving upriver to the next available hole.
Flash what occurred at 18 mile was just the sad end of a mismanaged fiasco.
post edited by waDerboy - 2008/01/07 04:53:25
#49
Lucky13
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RE: Egg Take post 2008/01/14 12:10:21 (permalink)
I'm going to chime back in.  In my original post, which was removed, I indicated that the DEC biolgist I had heard from said that, in HINDSIGHT, many in DEC recognized that mistakes were made in the handling of the egg take at 18 Mile, and there is internal argument and discussion of this.  I was also told, and will reiterate, that noone was allowed to keep foul hooked fish except NYSDEC, who did not return fish to the catchers.  As to things that could have been done in Pulaski, we have the benefit of 20-20 HINDSIGHT in suggesting closure or alternative water release regimes.  Imagine the outcry from the business community had NYSDEC closed the season, and then large rain materialized, which is what they expected based on past experience.  And of course regardless of what the possible effects of water release from the reservoirs may have been, there was no water until mid-October anyway.  All alternatives were tried, the fish are too large to be much impacted by conventional electrofishing, and with limited time for planning and response to a rapidly developing critical shortage, the action that was taken was what, in the imperfect world of trying to predict future outcomes, appeared most prudent. From a Public Relations standpoint, and again with 20-20 HINDSIGHT, mistakes were made, and ideally, in a future situation, contingency plans will be in place that allow maximization of the resource with minimal impacts on the ethics.  Also, the guys at the top, Like Mr. Culligan, are just too overloaded with responsibilities to answer every e-mail they get, and sometimes a better course is to try talking to the regional people, who are also way overloaded, but who will often hand off to a staffer to handle.  Finally, its not a law, it is a rule and regulation, and the law gives NYSDEC the power to make and suspend rules and regulations, so while the 18 mile scene leaves a bad taste in my mouth, too, Region 9 was within their rights to handle it the way they did, even if the pirate image and the press release are unfortunate.

L13
post edited by Lucky13 - 2008/01/14 12:13:25
#50
waDerboy
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RE: Egg Take post 2008/01/14 16:23:48 (permalink)
About this internal debate sounds great but so does most spin and cover ups.
 It was Mr Cullen that was quoted in the Buffalo paper calling the snaggers GALLANT. It doesn't matter whether the anglers got to keep the fish or not it sets the fishery back a decade because now all snaggers will justify their actions by saying even DEC knows you have to snag these fish. When they needed eggs they allowed it knowing it was the only way to get them.
Hind sight no there were alot of voices saying they should have inplamented no kill and from what you say they had the right to do that if they had the right to allow snagging. As to the outcry from business I personally don't give a rats pooper. If there is a shortage of salmon and crowds don't come in 3 years there will be an outcry then. Most of the business owners care only about their business and not what is good for the fisherman that pay the tab for the fishery they make a living from or for the fishery itself.
#51
waDerboy
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RE: Egg Take post 2008/01/15 04:40:10 (permalink)
As for being to overloaded with work to respond I work for a major player in the food services industry. When a customer complains they are listened to and their complaint is taken care of. It is done quickly and politely and most times even if the complaint is a bit off the wall something is done to compensate them. One thing that is never done is ignoring them. I the voter in this case am the customer and should expect the same treatment. Heavy work load or not (hard to belueve but those in the private sector are overloaded also) the customer comes first that is how you maintain a customer base. In my world if you are unsatified you just go to a different store. When dealing with government you vote out of office those that don't listen and respond. That is what I will now attempt to do. In this case a 2 vote swing. They don't get me vote again as they did and the opponent does. Is that going to run them out of office? No but its a start.
#52
King Davy
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RE: Egg Take post 2008/01/16 08:49:28 (permalink)
Wader....who you running out of office...man ....it's getting intense....Nobody is elected to the DEC...the Commish is appointed...and he or she hires a staff....The salmon river is probably getting at least 50% of it's return from wild fish...and at the Stakeholders meeting...the trib survey team had numbers of C&R on the Salmon river this past fall...at around 75%.
 
These guys are biologists....we know biologists make mistakes....like they have in Michigan making poor decisions that crashed their fishery TWICE. I'll take our guys anyday...and twice on Sunday.
 
Let it go .....it was a crazy year weather wise...for anybody who lake fishes we live with this every day weather VS the fish..if you are going to vote somebody out...VOTE OUT Mother Nature,
#53
King Davy
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RE: Egg Take post 2008/01/16 13:01:11 (permalink)
FYI....Just received a "White Paper" from DEC documenting the Fall Egg take scenario. Pretty comprehensive. I won't post it here because DEC said it will be up on their site in a few days. Pretty good chronology of the events...with data.
 
Everybody will look at this report in their own way....it's consistant with everything I experienced and from all I've talked to that hung around the Salmon river and other tribs last fall.
 
Again....while there is always room for improvment in decision making and methods...when we are talking about high temsp and a Res, that is 12 feet below normal...at the time you are usually dumping three times as much water as you have available last year....I think the DEC was handcuffed pretty well. IMHO....
 
There is contact info on the report to Call Steve LaPan directley....personally I know Steve well...he's a straight shooter and an excellent biologist "old school".....so it's an opportunity if you have questions to talk to the horse.
#54
waDerboy
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RE: Egg Take post 2008/01/16 16:25:59 (permalink)
Davey my ax falls on Spizter he's the man that has the buck stopping desk. He appoints people and must answer for their fallings. And I'm one person so I'm not running anyone out. Just doing my small part by trying. If I remember 8th grade social studies correctly that's how our country works. I'm nearing 60, has something changed that I haven't heard of? Its still a democracy (sort of) isn't it?
#55
salmotrutta
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RE: Egg Take post 2008/01/16 16:37:07 (permalink)
Dang dude- you're getting old. Almost 60? Dang.

Lyrical
#56
Troy
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RE: Egg Take post 2008/01/16 18:53:49 (permalink)
Here is the link KD was talking about
This should answer a lot of questions.
Troy
 
http://lakeontariooutdoors.com/uploads/LakeOntarioChinookEggTake2007Final.pdf
#57
waDerboy
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RE: Egg Take post 2008/01/17 03:09:50 (permalink)
I now know it was hot and we didn't get much rain. I also now know trhat they closed the LFZ to help in the survival of salmon in the river during that high temp low water time (according to the report) but they did nothing on the lower river where the bulk of the fish were to protect them.
#58
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