Another good article for you DocTrout:


Does antler restriction really work?
Kevin Polish Sr. at Kj's Pro Archery in Carmichaels not only asks the question, but also has to field queries on the subject from just about every customer who enters his shop these days.
"The reason I want to know did it really work is that, if it did work and we are going to have bigger deer, where are they," Polish said.
"Naturally we're going to have some bigger deer, but when these deer grow up, we're shooting them anyway- sometimes unlimited numbers of them.
"Once you take that gene pool out/ you take the strength of the herd out."
To make his point, Polish said that if you have a 4000 acre farm and you manage it for deer, all of a sudden this fall, you're going to have 12-18 15-20" deer on the property. If you harvest them, what going to be left?
He Continued saying that what youre going to hear is that if the doe were already bred the line will continue. That may be true, but youre going to have to wait another 5 years to get back to that point. Its a no-win battle.
With the start of archery deer season set to open Oct 3, many people tell me they arent seeing many deer.
Polish said that many Fayette county hunters who patronize the shop say that deer are scarce in the county. Especially the mountains.
He said "Ive only been back 4 to 6 weeks but everybody coming into the store is scratching their heads about the theory of our deer management program and asking, 'does this work?"
"Is the program working that they instituted years ago? It is up in the air. Its a 50/50 game right now. Alot of the people are saying that worked three years ago, Now they are coming backsaying they dont have any big bucks on their farms. They shot them all!"
"This is what Im hearing. Im hearing that more than "there are big bucks out there".
"Im seeing the all the pictures. Everybody that comes in has a nice deer on a cell phone or trail cam, but what Im hearing right now is not what i was hearing 3 years ago."
Polish noted that many local hunters are frustrated by the local deer hunting and a group of about 20 are going to Illinois to hunt deer at the end of the month.
"Once again, more people are more apt to go out west to hunt deer because the big deer that used to be on their farm arent there anymore, he said."Polish admitted that he was totally against the current deer management system 5 years ago and admits that eventually he did jump on board. Right now he is having mixed feelings about the states deer program.
"The hunters just arent seeing the big deer that they did in the past," he said. "Youre still hearing that there is a 160" deer here...or there.
"Dont get me wrong, there are bigger deer because the deer that made it are bigger now. There is no doubt abut it, but theres not as many big deer because they shot alot of deer off.""A lot of these 13-16" deer have been harvested. The little ones cant be shot, so the bigger ones are not given enough time to really grow up. We're back to where we were five years ago."
"I travel to Indiana and illinois--Big powerful deer states. When you travel out there, there are miles and miles of cornfields. Thats where big deer are. They are not there because of the feed. The genetics are there, but how did the genetics get ther? The feed is there and everything.
Theyre trying to make Pa a "big buck" state, but I dont think it will ever happen. I dont care what they do; it doesnt matter."
Polish then pointed out that since crossbows are legal for use by everyone, that thier use, too, will have more of an affect on the deer herd.
"I think hunters using crossbows are going to take a bunch of b bucks out of the equation for the rifle hunter," Polish said. "Not because crossbows are better. There are just that many more people who want to bowhunt this year because they can use a crossbow.."
Are the guys buying as many antlerless deer licenses as in past years?
Polish said that nearly everyone that visits his shop these days asks, "wheres the deer"?
"Pennsylvania sold its deer herd," Polish said. The deer population has had everything against it. We had the deer disease, laws have changed and there are just way too many doe licenses being sold. It has to take its toll on the deer herd."
I, too, am concerned. As one who travels the roads at night, I see very few deer when traveling home anymore. When I do see 1 thats usually what i see-- one. I seldom see two or even three, and I dont remember the last time I saw a group of 5 or more.
Ive traveled the same roads for more than 40 years. It was 14 years before I spotted a deer on my nightly 10 mile trip home. Then one night I spotted my first deer and in time the sightings reached a point where sighting at least one deer nightly was almost a given.
Then like the stock market, the number of sightings plummeted. At least the stock market is showing signs of a come back.
Rod Schoener

S-10, there was not a lot of acorns but they were present. All of the "scrubs" were young guys. I noticed lots of apples all over the area. Funny we call them scrub bucks, 10 or 15 years ago I would have gladly shot a spike. That would have been the ONLY buck I would have seen all season!! Thanks.

I dont know if the buck harvest will be up or down, but if it is down I dont believe it will be because of the insifniciant drizzle the firest thing off the bat the first day which didnt stop any hunters from hunting in the area where I was.

I tend to think it might be up slightly, but thats only based on the fact that they lessened the antler restrictions slightly in some units.

No acorns in the woods means they are in the fields for me.  Probably 80% of the hunters are in the woods considering that's where the bulk of the public land is.  Harvest was way down where I am, especially on doe since it's only saturday to saturday now.   I'm told the deer hurt the crops this year here and because of the limited guys hunting their property they weren't thrilled with the kill numbers.  Oh well, maybe next year mother nature will put them back in the mountains.  Somebody told me our area deer pop has doubled in the past two years.  Probably a bit extreme but it ought to be the best its been since 2002 or so with coming year unless there's a major winter kill which is unlikely with the record rains we got this year.  I expect the dcnr to dmap the p!ss out of my area again, hopefully not more and the pgc to raise allocations for 4D.   We had no problem with weather the first day and the saturdays.   I thought the eastern part of the state got hammered with rain.   My guess is buck harvest won't break 120K but who knows how the 3 up rule will affect it.

"No acorns in the woods means they are in the fields for me. Probably 80% of the hunters are in the woods considering that's where the bulk of the public land is."

Actually Kype, Im not sure how really significant it actually is, but if we use acorn crop as a variable determining harvest, all studies Ive seen have said that years of good mast crop equate to LOWER harvests. With poor mast crop being higher harvest due to deer being more mobile in their search for food. Its been a pretty consistent postion that Ive seen echoed by pgc, and also a recent article where Tonkovich was discussing the issue in Ohio game & fish. Ive also read it over and over through the last several years from various sources. I would agree with you, it was definately a down year for acorn crop here this year.

While the "science" seems to be pretty much in agreement on the issue as Ive said, in general around here, i dont see where it would make a ton of difference either way but apparently there is enough of a difference to be shown in the data. But rifle season which is when by far most deer are harvested, in many areas of Pa, when you see deer its usually because someone "bumped" it from a ridge or two over having been jumped or rerouted due to winding someone down in the hollow or whatever.. More moving due to pressure than feeding movement. Especially on the "high harvest days" when more guys are afield and most deer are taken.

ORIGINAL: wayne c

"No acorns in the woods means they are in the fields for me. Probably 80% of the hunters are in the woods considering that's where the bulk of the public land is."

Actually Kype, Im not sure how really significant it actually is, but if we use acorn crop as a variable determining harvest, all studies Ive seen have said that years of good mast crop equate to LOWER harvests. With poor mast crop being higher harvest due to deer being more mobile in their search for food. Its been a pretty consistent postion that Ive seen echoed by pgc, and also a recent article where Tonkovich was discussing the issue in Ohio game & fish. Ive also read it over and over through the last several years from various sources. I would agree with you, it was definately a down year for acorn crop here this year.

 
Probably depends on area and terrain.  With my areas fields being at 600-700 feet and the mountain topping 2300, there is no reason for the deer to come up without acorns.   Limit the number of hunters in the fields and alot of them don't shoot doe, and we have alot of surviving deer.