Pointing Dog Training Thread

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duncsdad
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2007/10/15 19:10:38 (permalink)

Pointing Dog Training Thread

Throughout the years, there have been some threads asking questions about hunting dog training.  As have some others, I have tried to chime in where I thought I had some useful information.
 
Since we just had English Pointer puppies born on Friday, I was wondering if there is still an interest in information on training methods, etc.  If there is, I would be willing to start a thread that covers the training of the puppy we pick from day one through finished gundog that covers training methods, hunting ideas, tools of the trade, some do’s and some don’ts.
 
If I get a favorable response of interest, I would probably post a weekly training schedule and updates on progress.  I would also include as many photos as needed to illustrate the verbiage.
 
Is there any interest in such a thread?

Duncsdad

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    Toad
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    RE: Pointing Dog Training Thread 2007/10/15 20:52:01 (permalink)
    I'd be interested in reading that.  I will be looking for a new pup soon as well.  My old dog is 14.5 yrs old almost completely deaf.  He still gets around well enogh to go out for a couple hours but I spend more time chasing after him so he doesn't get lost than hunting.  It is about time to get another to get it started with my younger dog.
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    raccoon bandit
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    RE: Pointing Dog Training Thread 2007/10/20 19:33:54 (permalink)
    Just saw the thread, I would read the posts I think, but I hunt flushers....

    If I agreed with you we would both be wrong
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    duncsdad
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    RE: Pointing Dog Training Thread 2007/10/23 19:20:15 (permalink)
    Well, there doesn't seem to be much interest.  The pup was born on 10-12, so it will be coming home in early December.  I'll check a couple of more times to see if the subject gains any interest.

    Duncsdad

    Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion
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    raccoon bandit
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    RE: Pointing Dog Training Thread 2007/10/23 19:44:25 (permalink)
    Good luck with your pup. I have no doubt what you offer would be valuable. I think some of it would be useful for me, but I have no plans to hunt anything but flushers...
    post edited by raccoon bandit - 2007/10/25 15:15:47

    If I agreed with you we would both be wrong
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    jlh42581
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    RE: Pointing Dog Training Thread 2007/10/24 09:28:38 (permalink)
    Id wouldnt mind hearing what you have to say shawn, but with my dog being a solid 10 months ahead of your pups im not sure it would benefit me at this time. Could pick up some info for the next one but hey, thats up to you. Im leaning towards a flushing dog next myself.
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    duncsdad
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    RE: Pointing Dog Training Thread 2007/10/24 19:30:20 (permalink)
    Since I referee a number of birddog events, I get to see a lot of dogs, a lot of really good dogs, in action -- sometimes under extremely tough conditions.
     
    Unlike the fly vs. spin split which is rooted in personal preference, the flushing dog vs. pointing dog debate is more than preference.  As has been written many times -- "Every dog has its day."
     
    Some conditions, like those of the past weekend -- warm, heavy cover, heavy pressure, and high winds, really favor the flushing dogs.  Pheasants want to run under these conditions because of the noise and their ability to utilize the cover as an on-foot escape route.  Most of the time, these birds will run out from under a point requiring release and relocation, or, as happened to us several times Saturday, the dog will hold like a stone and the bird will come off the ground 25 - 30 yards ahead of the point.  This isn't an issue with a flushing dog.  Correction, this isn't an issue with an in control flushing dog.  The dog will foot track the bird at the hunter's pace and bust the bird up.  Because of the nervous nature of pheasants under these conditions, the will fly well before being able to be caught by a flushing dog.  At last weekend's competition, the flushing dogs did very well.
     
    An out of control flushing dog will produce a lot of birds under these conditions as well, but the majority of them will be way out of range (I saw more than a few birds that were shot at at distance over 75 yards on Saturday).
     
    The pointing dog's day is when there is moisture and minimal wind, thus making the birds wanting to sit in one place.  Since pointing dogs use body scent instead of foot scent, this type of condition, which produces a huge scent cone, is very easy for them.  They can not only locate birds from a considerable distance, but can stay pointed well off the bird, allowing the hunter to flush it.  Without a lot of foot scent under these conditions, flushing dogs have a tough time, unless they run right smack into a bird.  Because the birds want to set tight, they are often caught by a flushing dog when that happens.  I don't know about you, but I didn't lug that gun over hill and dale to not get to use it because the dog caught the bird.
     
    As I wrote before, I'll keep checking to see if interest grows or not and to what degree folks want to finish their dogs -- just so it hunts, just so it points, steady to wing, steady to wing and shot, retrieve to hand, voice commands, whistle commands, collar commands, hand signals, speed, distance, etc.
     
    Best of luck to all this pheasant season and please post some photos.

    Duncsdad

    Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion
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    jlh42581
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    RE: Pointing Dog Training Thread 2007/10/25 13:40:29 (permalink)
    Id like some tips on getting the dog to stop, it seems she finds the birds but just jumps right in on them most of the time. Which makes me not shoot... I was told your not supposed to woah a dog on point because it causes flinching.
    post edited by jlh42581 - 2007/10/25 13:41:01
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    duncsdad
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    RE: Pointing Dog Training Thread 2007/10/26 19:56:30 (permalink)
    Jeremy,
     
    Let's see if I can help here.  You actually have three issues, but I only have time to address one of them here.  I'll pick up on the others a little later.
     
    I guess the first thing would be to disown whoever the bozo is that told you not to Whoa a pointer on point.  That is the ONLY appropriate time to use the Whoa command, so if you don't use it then, when would you?  I know of no one, absolutely no one, myself included, that doesn't use Whoa when a dog is on point -- even if it is not needed.  If Whoa is taught correctly and used correctly, there is no chance it will cause an issue with the dog.  All Whoa means to a dog is stand right there and don't move -- nothing more.
     
    Can it be over done?  You bet.  I have seen dogs so over Whoa trained that they actually laid down on point when commanded Whoa.
     
    I use a very gentle approach to Whoa.  I usually start on a short slip lead and when I stop walking and so does the dog, I command Whoa.  This is as natural as commanding sit when the dog is starting to sit.  The dog associates stopping with Whoa.  If it needs a little encouragement, a gentle, but sharp upward tug on the slip lead ususally helps stop the dog.  Always release the dog from his Whoa stance with a command such as release or OK or let's go before moving on.
     
    When you have done this successfully for a week or so, I go to a Whoa board.  This is a simple piece of plywood, about 2 feet wide and three feet long.  Walk the dog onto the board the same as you have been doing and command Whoa, just like you have been doing.  When the dog stops on the board, command Whoa.  As the dog stands there, very gently and as inconspicuously as possible, drop the lead.  The dog should remain at Whoa, even without the pressure.  If it doesn't, go back to the other training for a week.
     
    If the dog stays there, slowly walk from the side of the dog to a foot or so in front, softly commanding Whoa.  If the dog moves, gently pick it up and place it back on the board and command Whoa.  Only make the dog Whoa for 20 - 40 seconds, pick up the lead and give the release command.  Mix the Whoa board in with the other Whoa training for about a week.  The length of time on the Whoa board should increase until it is up to a timed minute and you should be able to walk completely around the dog, when on Whoa.
     
    I'll go into more later.

    Duncsdad

    Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion
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    jlh42581
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    RE: Pointing Dog Training Thread 2007/10/26 20:05:53 (permalink)
    Shawn I can make the dog stop on a dime with woah, but if that bird moves, shes on it. Whats the other problems Im seeing.


    BTW: The guy who said whoa on point was not good was a trainer that Lion Country had at bird dog days this year, I kinda thought he was full of $hit.
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    duncsdad
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    RE: Pointing Dog Training Thread 2007/10/29 19:34:05 (permalink)
    I apologize for the late response to your post.  I actually answered it on Saturday morning.  Normally, when I envision a long response (the 100 word ban would just kill me), I work in Word and then cut and paste.  Saturday, however, I was waiting for furniture to be delivered and figured I would just type the post directly until it arrived.  The scheduled delivery time was 9 AM and I basically typed the response until 10:30 AM (and, no, the furniture hadn’t shown up by that time).  At 10:30 AM, I hit OK to upload the post and in the exact instant that the post was uploading, I lost my DSL connection.  After about an hour conversation with Verizon customer service, changing this and changing that in an effort to reconnect, plus resetting my modem, etc., it was determined that the problem was with either the line from the pole or the DSL box.
     
    Anyway, here goes as I try to recreate my response from Saturday.
     
    The answer lies in your post: “I can stop the dog on a dime with Whoa.”
     
    Whoa does NOT mean STOP.  Whoa means STAND STILL.  This is a very common training error.  If you trained Whoa to mean stop, you are going to need to un-train it and start over training it correctly.
     
    There is basically no common command for STOP (unless you train STOP) for pointing dogs because there is no reason for one.  The command HUP means stop in the flushing dog world and is used when a dog is hot on a bird at the fringes of shotgun range.  The dog is commanded Hup, which is a shortened version of “hold up.”  Fundamentally, it means stop the pursuit and sit down.  When the hunter gets in acceptable gun range, the dog is released to flush the bird.
     
    With pointing dogs, because they are trained to point or stand away from the bird, there is no need for this command.  If the dog hunts and finds birds out of range, it simply waits for the hunter.  In some areas, Texas for example, pointers are expected to run loops as big as a mile because of the very open ground and the way birds scatter due to water and food availability.
     
    Of course, that doesn’t work in PA, but a dog working at 35, 50, or even 100 yards, is not an issue.  If there is some reason you want the dog to stop, simply command it to return.  This is kind of a reboot action and also gives you the opportunity to give the dog a drink.
     
    If you train Whoa to mean stand still, there shouldn’t be any problem with the grabbing of birds.
     
    To do proper Whoa training, follow the suggestions in my previous post.  In addition, to the yard work; you need to also do some field training and some advanced Whoa training.
     
    You will probably notice a common thread when I write about training – the approach I use is a soft, gentle, approach with as little stress or pressure as possible.  Some dogs will not respond to this and need a little more, shall I say guidance and encouragement. 
     
    When Whoa training is over done, it can be very unpleasant to a dog.  I have seen dogs actually lie down on point because of extensive and more than likely harsh Whoa training.  Also, I think the point that the guy at LC was trying to get across was that too harsh of Whoa training may result in the dog blinking on birds.  What blinking refers to is when a dog scents a bird, wants to point it, but has had some unpleasant experience while on point, so it starts to point then leaves it in order to avoid the unpleasant situation.
     
    Since I don’t recall exactly what was in my last post and can’t get to it right now with the DSL issue, let’s start at the beginning.
     
    As you walk your dog on a slip lead, stop and command Whoa.  Your dog should come to a stop naturally when you do.  If it doesn’t, give a gentle, but firm tug on the slip lead.  This will stop them in their tracks.
     
    Stand next to your dog and have it stand next to you.  Stay there for about 15 to 30 seconds.  Then give a releasing command such as Release or Okay and move on.  If the dog moves while it is to be standing still, pick it by cradling it in your arms up under its belly and put it back and command Whoa again.  This is never a yelled whoa, but a soothing one (you will see why later).
     
    I also usually opt for using a hand signal such as a raised hand or index finger when teaching Whoa.  This just compliments the voice command and in the future will be interchangeable.  That is important for those times when you don’t want to make any noise, like over wild birds or preserve birds that have been hunted hard for months.
     
    I would do this every other day for about two weeks – even if the dog gets it much earlier than that.
     
    Step two in Whoa training is being able to do it off the lead.  I use a Whoa board for that purpose.  A Whoa board is a piece of plywood that is about 2 feet wide by 3 feet long.  I paint mine red.  Typically I have two placed at different locations in the yard.  While walking the dog on the slip lead, walk them onto the Whoa board.  Since you have trained Whoa for a couple of weeks now, the dog will stop and stand on the board when commanded Whoa.  Slowly and gently let go of the lead and walk across in front of the dog, softly commanding Whoa.  The dog should remain there.  If it doesn’t regain control of the lead to stop the dog and pick it up to place it back on the board.  Once replaced on the board, a gentle tug on the slip lead with the command Whoa should set things right again.  At first, keep the time on the Whoa board short, 10 -20 seconds.  Only allow the dog to leave the board when given whatever releasing command you have settled on.
     
    Proceed walking through the yard and repeat at the second board.  I usually stop at each board two or three times and then take the dog for its normal run.  When the normal run is completed, I go back to the Whoa boards for one more stop on each.
     
    Again, put in about two weeks.  For the third week, you should be able to start walking the entire way around the dog while it holds for a full minute – which, by the way, is a really, really long time to a pointing dog.
     
    If the dog is responding well, you can try Whoa in places other than when it is on the board.  Should that work well, you might consider using a “suitcase handle.”  What the suitcase handle is is a lead set up that attaches to the collar and also wraps around the belly of the dog.  The dog essentially is the suitcase.  Use the suitcase handle in conjunction with the Whoa board.  What this does is style up the dog.  It keeps the neck in line with the rear end.  This is also a good time to stiffen up the tail y gently stroking it upward while softly commanding Whoa..
     
    So throughout these 5 to 7 weeks of Whoa training several things have happened.  The dog learned to stop and stand still naturally.  The dog learned that there is no danger or unpleasantness associated with Whoa.  The dog learned that the Whoa board is a great place to be because it happens before and after a run.  The dog learns style. 
     
    You have learned to stack training and build on what was taught before and to always keep some element of previous training in each new thing.  You have learned that the dog will be trained on its timetable and not yours.  You will learn that dogs need repetition and it is okay to keep drilling on something until it becomes second nature rather than just going on to the next step because the dog “got it” once or twice.
     
    At this point you should be able to heel the dog off lead to any spot, command Whoa, walk completely around the dog while it stands still with style, be able to push on the dog in any direction and it will resist moving, and release the dog on command.
     
    This post is long enough, so I will save the field work on whoa and the advanced yard Whoa training for another time.
     

    Duncsdad

    Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion
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