Why HR/AR isnt popular

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S-10
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RE: Why HR/AR isnt popular 2009/12/21 14:13:43 (permalink)
Doc wrote--DID NOT SUPPORT IT---Show me one place in testimony, press releases, interviews,meetings, etc, where Carl Roe or any of the management backed away from that number. After they sold HERD REDUCTION based on that number they then claimed their MODEL for estimating the herd had an error. Are you now admitting they LIED to us about the model and knew all along it was bogus?
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CrossForkWookie
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RE: Why HR/AR isnt popular 2009/12/21 14:23:04 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: DanesDad




Actually I have to admire them somewhat for sticking to their guns in the face of how doing so could ultimately ruin them. They must really believe in this!

 
 
Maybe it's because they are actually using science instead of bending to social and legislative pressures?
 
 
.
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S-10
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RE: Why HR/AR isnt popular 2009/12/21 14:34:34 (permalink)
I'am still waiting to hear the science behind the 1,600,000 deer population that herd reduction was based on. Or is that part of the (A lot of what we do is trial and error) they told us about or (mistakes will be made) they stated.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Why HR/AR isnt popular 2009/12/21 16:00:33 (permalink)
S-10..

why do I even waste time replying to what you write.. you are getting to be an expert at putting your words and thoughts into someone's post.

Doc wrote--DID NOT SUPPORT IT


Here IS WHAT I wrote again...

and you also must remember he was the one that threw that 1.6 million deer figure to the general public.. not the PGC.. but the PGC did not "throw him under the bus" for saying something stupid like that.. they just let it ride..........


"By just let it ride"  I mean they did not reply or use that figure .... and to my knowledge no spokesman for the PGC ever stated we had 1.6 million deer in 2002 except Dr. Alt.......

Dr Alt made enemies at the PGC with that figure and statement and he lost support for him personally for saying that...




Please, IF I am wrong show me an  offical statement by a PGC offical that uses that 1.6 million.....


The best I ever heard was one say..."" Dr. Alt said there were 1.6 million"" ... which (as we all know)is a way of saying you do not belive that person, but are not coming right out and confronting him on the statement..

nor does it say how the person saying that feels about that number one way or the other... by saying nothing. you think that means support... nope it just means the person talking is "letting it ride".......

I have never heard one person at the PGC agree with the 1.6 million.. NEVER... but I also have never heard one say that in public.... nor heard one say they agreed with that figure...



I'm 65 remember.. so do not wait too long to post that offical statement from anyone at the PGC (except Alt) about the 1.6 million deer prior to HR.......


changing the MODEL had NOTHING to do with Dr Alt's 1.6 million deer false statement...  it was the using deer per square mile as a basis they wanted to change ... but you already knew that  too..... ???????????
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2009/12/21 16:07:52
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S-10
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RE: Why HR/AR isnt popular 2009/12/21 16:18:11 (permalink)
definitely did not support it and were upset it "was out there now"....

Your mind is going doc---the above is part of your post. As far as the error in the model goes that is doucmented and I posted it on your site a year or so ago.I'll try to find it again but I read it several different places. The only time anyone tried to back away from the 1,600,000 was after Alt left and wrote the piece for a birding magazine in 2005 promising to be the PGC's worst enemy. In the PGC's reply they said they couldn't authenicate (sp) the number.
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RE: Why HR/AR isnt popular 2009/12/21 16:21:31 (permalink)
Why did they "fire him" and continue his policys??
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Why HR/AR isnt popular 2009/12/21 16:31:15 (permalink)
Dr Alt was not fired.. he resigned....

as for an offical statement how's this... and this is EXACTLY what he told me in a personal converstaion.. he does not and did not believe the 1.6 million....
 
This is testamony in 2004....

"There had been much discussion about deer population numbers, such as 1.6 million deer," Rosenberry said.
"As part of the transition, we took a look at the deer model created in 2002, to understand its operation. During
this review, we identified several parts of the model that could have been improved and would have resulted in
more accurate population estimates.
 
"Whether there were 1.6 million deer in Pennsylvania, we cannot say.
 
However, based on a new analysis of data
available to us at this time, it appears deer populations in many Wildlife Management Units have declined."
 
Rosenberry explained that the Game Commission historically has managed deer using deer densities and deer
density goals. That approach is changing in an effort to provide a more stable foundation for managing deer
populations.
 
"Making a determination of whether deer populations are at healthy levels should not be judged on deer
numbers alone, but also should involve an assessment of multiple factors related to deer herd health, habitat
health and deer-human interactions," Rosenberry noted. "These measures should include hunter success, deerhuman interactions, habitat inventories, as well as measurements of deer productivity and densities."
 
 
Rosenberry noted that the new deer management team will continue to evaluate the agency's deer program in
an effort to identify what's working and what's not. Initiatives include piloting a localized Citizens Task Force
project; developing an urban deer management strategy; continued use of research to improve deer
management decisions; and development of a new deer population monitoring system.
 
 
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2009/12/21 16:33:05
#37
DarDys
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RE: Why HR/AR isnt popular 2009/12/21 16:42:24 (permalink)
Alt retired after the merge between DCNR and the PGC did not materialize so his dream job of being the Executive Director of the new agency was gone.  He was put in charge of the deer program because he had all the other necessary resume line items -- PhD in Forestry, PGC experience, etc., for the new agency Director's position, but still needed a signature, significant program (bears were not it, it was too small of a program).  The whole reason he was willing to take the bullets associated with the deer program was to get the new job and bolster his "highest 3 years" in preparation for retirement.  When the merge did not happen and ergo the job was not there to double his salary, he retired and went away.  PA hunters are now left to deal with the mess associated with him trying for a promotion.  It will take years to correct.

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
#38
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RE: Why HR/AR isnt popular 2009/12/21 16:51:33 (permalink)
When I was younger a company I worked for asked me to move to a supervisor position. I turned them down . They then asked me to resign. We rise to our highest level of incompetance. Fire- resign, potato- potatoe
#39
270wbmag
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RE: Why HR/AR isnt popular 2009/12/21 17:02:07 (permalink)
alt said 1.6 million deer, audobon backed him up after he quit and said same number of deer, pgc never rebuted the claim of numbers, until flyovers..doe killers are now getting what they deserve,now they are crying..
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Why HR/AR isnt popular 2009/12/21 17:30:09 (permalink)
I am not crying.. I am eating venison tenderloins with BBQ sauce ... baked potatoe with sour cream... brussel sprouts .. whole wheat bread & butter.. and pumpkin roll for dessert .....yum yum...

gheeez..... check your history or your calendar 270  ... I think you will find  the statenmnet from Rosenberry (I just posted) came before flyovers....

GOD .......  some of you will post anything just to see your post show up ?????????

and as I stated the PGC "just let it ride".. hoping it would go away....

that proves (to me at least) they did not believe there were that many deer....
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2009/12/21 17:33:30
#41
DanesDad
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RE: Why HR/AR isnt popular 2009/12/21 17:45:24 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: World Famous

When I was younger a company I worked for asked me to move to a supervisor position. I turned them down . They then asked me to resign. We rise to our highest level of incompetance. Fire- resign, potato- potatoe

Dude, it sounded like you crapped on yourself there...
#42
DanesDad
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RE: Why HR/AR isnt popular 2009/12/21 17:53:30 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: CrossForkWookie

ORIGINAL: DanesDad




Actually I have to admire them somewhat for sticking to their guns in the face of how doing so could ultimately ruin them. They must really believe in this!



Maybe it's because they are actually using science instead of bending to social and legislative pressures?


.

That may be true but there is more than one way to measure carrying capacity of the habitat. There is "biological carrying capacity" which is how many deer the habitat can sustain without the habitat itself being damaged. This is probably what the PGC was concerned with but they seem to have overlooked or downplayed "social carrying capacity" which is how many deer humans will tolerate in the habitat (more or less). When the social carrying capacity drops too low, people start complaining...just read these boards. And, if it becomes too hard for the casual hunter to kill (or even see) deer, they're gonna give up and most of the revenue the PGC gets will be gone. This will result in some major changes, probably not for the better, as far as hunting is concerned.
#43
Claypool313
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RE: Why HR/AR isnt popular 2009/12/21 18:00:27 (permalink)
unfortunately the age of SOME bucks I would say more than in all other previous years has increased


Yup, I agree with that, but my experience is not in the ANF, a bit further northeast from there.  From my personal hunting observations, scouting, and talking with others, there has been a general perception of more older bucks surviving the hunting season.  I don't credit this to AR in the least.  It's a credit to HR in that it has reduced the hunter density below the threshold required to keep deer moving.  Our theory is that if they can live through opening day, there's not as much 'continuous pressure' anymore to keep them moving.  They settle in, go nocturnal, and get altogether really sneaky.  As stated in first post, I've adjusted my late season tactics, but yet to have them produce.  This year on the last day, I was just one step behind the deep, wide, track leaving muthas.  By the way, all last day, did not hear a single shot within a mile.

Used to be, someone would jump a bug guy on either of the Saturdays it couldn't go a quarter mile without getting shot at.
post edited by Claypool313 - 2009/12/21 18:03:38
#44
DanesDad
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RE: Why HR/AR isnt popular 2009/12/21 18:31:04 (permalink)
"It's a credit to HR in that it has reduced the hunter density below the threshold required to keep deer moving."

And THAT is what The average deer hunter depends on. The basic tactics of successful deer hunting in Pennsylvania are changing. And the casual hunter is not going to embrace the changes.
#45
S-10
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RE: Why HR/AR isnt popular 2009/12/21 18:58:52 (permalink)
Ok Doc--let me see if I got this right Alt was picked by his superiors to be their spokesman for the deer reduction program. They picked him, gave him his instructions and monitored his preformance. Alt claimed there were 1,600,000 deer in Pennsylvania and got it in all the media outlets and stated that was too many . His supervisors didn't believe that number, couldn't produce any data to support it but didn't do anything to correct the record leaving the entire state and much of the country believing that number was gospel. That was the number used to justify herd reduction. Now herd reduction is completed, Alt has left, and we are being told that it was false and everyone at the PGC was mad when he made the claim. Even if his supervisors themselves didn't repeat it, by their not refuting it when the statement was made they became complicit in the lie. He was either given instructions to use the number or his supervisors agreed with his use of it. And these are the guys we are supposed to trust. How many more things have they done this with???
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RE: Why HR/AR isnt popular 2009/12/21 23:19:32 (permalink)
good statement s-10, these are the guys we are supposed to trust!! there have been alot of things they have done, but that would be another thread. and from reading the comebacks from dr trout- you will not get him to agree with you. if you try to say the pgc or dr. alt is in anyway wrong, he will comeback with some conversation he had with dr. alt. he must have a shrine of him in his bathroom or something.
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270wbmag
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RE: Why HR/AR isnt popular 2009/12/22 07:03:01 (permalink)
if pgc did not believe him trout, why did they allocate over 1 million doe tags two or three years in a row????? they are not that dumb to issue more doe tags than deer in the woods, or what they thought was in the woods..trout has "alt tatoo" on his rear..
#48
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RE: Why HR/AR isnt popular 2009/12/23 20:45:24 (permalink)
Perhaps DR.Deer changed his name .... possibly hiding somewhere in THIS state.. jus sayin ......perhaps the TROUT is the next species being prepared to be decimated /? I mean managed.
 
       You know we need to protect the dwindling bug populations , minnows , tadpoles , larva , and other living organisms they disrupt in the COMMONWEALTH's WATERWAYS. The annihilation of the said slimers will pave the way for wonderful algae blooms , trout will quad droople in size , and with only 1 fish per every 3 miles of stream you can bet your azz it's a gonna be HUGE ! I'm IN ........
#49
gct069
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RE: Why HR/AR isnt popular 2009/12/23 23:56:28 (permalink)
when are you all gonna get with the program and realize alt was the sacraficial lamb for the current deer slaughter.he did great things with the bear program ,and when he was promoted,the powers that be, said to develope a program to reduce the deer herd to make the insurance companies happy.when he did what he was asked,they saw a scapegoat in case the program missfired(which it has). i feel the blame is being passed onto the wrong parties.alt was just doing what his supirirers(sp)asked him to do. just my opinion

gerg
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