How does everyone feel about herd size?

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jlh42581
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2008/10/22 14:58:27 (permalink)

How does everyone feel about herd size?

You wanna know... look!

Seems most in my area feel the same as i do. 4D has seen a decrease and could sustain more.

http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/lib/pgc/deer/pdf/cac_wmu4d.pdf

http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/browse.asp?a=465&C=70129&BMDRN=2000&BCOB=0&PM=1

These people are not selected by the game commission... its strait from the source... people that hunt, landowners... you name it.
#1

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    jlh42581
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    RE: How does everyone feel about herd size? 2008/10/22 15:00:20 (permalink)
    Pretty funny how most people who think we dont have a problem are foresters.
    #2
    Esox_Hunter
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    RE: How does everyone feel about herd size? 2008/10/22 16:06:23 (permalink)
    Seems like most of the areas I have seen here are slim pickins.  The exceptions, obviously, are some of the private(posted) and some of the farms.
     
    I though we had taken a hit in 2B over the past 5 years or so, that is until I saw somewhere that really got hit hard(4D).  I am not giving up yet, just a little discouraged.  Tomorrow will be my 8th time out in 4D and I have yet to see a deer here, maybe tomorrow will be my lucky day!  In 2B, I have been out 4 times and I have seen 15+ does and 4 different bucks! 
    #3
    Noplacelikehome
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    RE: How does everyone feel about herd size? 2008/10/22 16:52:08 (permalink)
    I hunt 3B and 1B. Now I will admit there are not the big numbers there were 10 years ago. BUT I see way more bucks now than I did back then(and MUCH larger). I hunt a red tag area in 1B and private land in 3B(not posted). I don't see 20 deer a day anymore but I usually fill 2 to 3 tags a year. I actually pass up legal bucks every year! When I started hunting I did not even see a buck till I was 16!! and it was only a small spike. I think that hunting or herd size, in the areas I hunt are GREAT and the PGC is doing a good job. I have guys crying to me all the time that there are NO deer. But ask them how much time they spend in the woods ALL year. Guess what, they might spend 10 hours ALL year. Its called HUNTING not KILLING. So far I have killed one doe and seen about 11 deer. I already think this has been a great hunting season and it just started! I can't wait to head for the big boys of Southern Ohio on Nov. 8th! Every year we see at least one giant!(140 class and up) Now if I could just keep my nerves in check and shoot straight.   GOOD LUCK to ALL!!!
    #4
    Esox_Hunter
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    RE: How does everyone feel about herd size? 2008/10/22 19:20:45 (permalink)
    Well I think after 7 deer-less outtings in 4D I am qualified enough to say that there are deer there, just not any where near the numbers I am used to in 2B, where I have hunted the better part of the last 10 seasons.  My biggest restriction here is a lack of knowledge of the area, I don't have a ton of areas to hunt here.  Most of the "new" areas I find where hunting is legal are almost void of sign.  Not seeing deer here is not a result of a lack of effort on my part, I have done plenty of scouting both pre-season and during-season.  One of the few areas I have been seeing good sign has had hunters crawling around it and that never makes it easy.  I am not going to give up and I will take this as a great challenge.  If I score this season I will know that I paid my dues and put my time in to make it happen.  With this recent cold snap I finally am going to get plenty of stand time here for the remainder of the season, hopefully the deer will be on their feet and I can make it happen!!
     
     
    #5
    S-10
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    RE: How does everyone feel about herd size? 2008/10/22 19:23:32 (permalink)
    Noplace--Where in Ohio do you hunt? I'am going down around Caldwell tomorrow for a few days to scout out and hang a couple stands where we will be hunting after we are done here. I heard they had some more trouble this year with EHD and we found a bunch last year so am a bit concerned.
    #6
    jlh42581
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    RE: How does everyone feel about herd size? 2008/10/22 19:35:21 (permalink)
    Ive been out 12 evenings so far, 1 morning... i do homework on deer, trust me, nothing amps me up more then shooting one with a bow. I spend hours lookn at google earth and aerial images to pick out places... ive even gone as far as having someone laugh in my face to get access to a place i know has good numbers.

    Its not just me but if you look at the 4d, you will see most feel that way. I havent had a chance to look at the others but if you wanna put me in a good stand... just say so

    Ive hunted 4D for the last 12 seasons and ive killed at least one a year since going out on my own at 16. Ive watched the numbers go from 10+ a day to maybe a 12 all of archery season if lucky. The forest has become so thick in places its impossible to hunt it now. What few deer there are left have excellent cover. Combine that with the fact theres a field of something edible in every direction of every deer in the county and you got a recipe for very tough hunting. You see the sign, get the trailcam pics, find there entrence and exit then some bungsniffer ruins it the day before youre due to start.

    BTW: Im in the market for a lease if anyone knows of one. Within 100 miles of 16853
    post edited by jlh42581 - 2008/10/22 19:37:55
    #7
    Noplacelikehome
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    RE: How does everyone feel about herd size? 2008/10/22 20:37:12 (permalink)
    jlh, Esox, I don't know anything about 4D, but all I can tell you guys is try somewhere else. I have hunted other places(even game lands) if I didn't see deer or deer sign(trails,poop) I kept looking. I asked a farmer one time if I could woodchuck hunt. He said yes. After a couple of years he said I could deer hunt too if I wanted to. I always talked to him and told him what I shot and saw(deer, turkeys). I also always asked him if he needed anything. All he every wanted was some Erie Steelhead. And we all know how plentiful those are. Summer is the best time to ask. You never know until you ask.
    #8
    chicken27
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    RE: How does everyone feel about herd size? 2008/10/22 20:55:16 (permalink)
    I got the same problem hunted 2c today and never saw a deer.I checked one of my trial cameras before the hutn i had 127 pictures on it since sunday evening.The wind was perfect i have no clue way i can't see one there.
    #9
    MuskyMastr
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    RE: How does everyone feel about herd size? 2008/10/22 21:21:37 (permalink)
    The citizens advisory council is a joke.  My father a lifelong educator, hunter fishermen and one of the best all around general outdoorsmen I know was not accepted, in his place a Doctor who has recently taken up (within the last 5 years) was selected.  There are many more white collars than camo ones on those boards.

    Better too far back, than too far forward.
    #10
    DanesDad
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    RE: How does everyone feel about herd size? 2008/10/22 22:08:24 (permalink)
    Hey, I feel your pain.  I dont have a primo piece of ground, or a lease, or my own farm.  I have to hunt public land or be a guest of someone else, or a few local places that I have permission.  Me deer sightings are down since HR/AR, and I am a bit discouraged.  However, I dont disagree with what the PGC is doing.  We're just going through the growing pains.  My sightings (while hunting) are minimal.  But, I'll keep on trying with the hope that better days are ahead.
    #11
    jlh42581
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    RE: How does everyone feel about herd size? 2008/10/23 06:16:03 (permalink)
    I agree with AR, i just think some areas need to slow down on the doe tags. 4D is one of those ones that sells out first.
    #12
    SilverKype
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    RE: How does everyone feel about herd size? 2008/10/23 08:10:53 (permalink)
    Fellas, the deer in 4D around here are up high on the southeast side of the mountains or down in the bottoms near fields.  The northwest slopes and flats are not producing acorns this year.  We must have had a late season frost.  The higher elevations on the SE side are less apt to the frost.  With less deer than the past, it seems when I find REALLY good sign, it's being done at night, or when it's time to quit hunting, or the deer are already through there before first light.  I've had better luck hunting where the deer are coming from or going to, with less sign around.  Our deer aren't yearlings anymore.  If they are, they are generally with an older deer.  They've been around the track a time or two.  I feel that 20052006 was the bottom of the barrel for deer numbers around here, not that it's good now, but better.

    My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
    #13
    killdeer19
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    RE: How does everyone feel about herd size? 2008/10/23 09:04:54 (permalink)
    I know I've seen fewer and fewer deer over the years... It used to be that I'd see 40-50 deer on opening day of buck, but now, I'm lucky to see 4-5, and of those 5 maybe 2 would be in shooting range. (normaly both would be 4 pointers.)

    Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything, but you still can't help but smile when you see one tumble down the stairs.
    #14
    AKKingBuster
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    RE: How does everyone feel about herd size? 2008/10/29 08:53:56 (permalink)
    Herd?  Wouldn't that mean more than one animal???  Hey guys I live and hunt in 4A, my family has hunted the same land for many years and we have approximately 500 acres that we lease and the majority of the land around us is private also.  Not so many years ago I could set in a tree and see 20 to 30 deer with little problems.  We actually had to many deer then and opened our ground up to doe hunting to help with this problem.  Some will say that the habitat has changed and that is one of the reasons for fewer deer. I will agree to a point but on our ground a large portion of it was clear cut and is now thick briars and another large track was select cut and is all tops.  Should be a deer haven.  Perhaps we were all spoiled by the high numbers not so many years ago and now we really have to work to take a deer. I have often told my son, now 15 that I wish he could have experienced the good years.  We have to join together and stop buying doe license and send the good ole Pa. Game Commission a message. They depend on our money to exist.  God Bless...
    #15
    jlh42581
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    RE: How does everyone feel about herd size? 2008/10/29 09:39:12 (permalink)
    I dont think thats the answer, they then turn to things like crossbows to make up revenue. Buy the tag and dont use it if you wish not too. Ill tell you the real problem. Its allowing people to buy 8 and 10 tags. Want a doe tag in Allegheny, stop in and buy another, great system...not! Hey, ill get 1 tag for every WMU. You should be aloud two tags in a given year regardless of the WMU. One buck, One doe quit being so **** greedy. They raise beef in large numbers for a reason people.
    #16
    Dr. Trout
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    RE: How does everyone feel about herd size? 2008/10/29 09:47:49 (permalink)
    Some will say that the habitat has changed and that is one of the reasons for fewer deer. I will agree to a point but on our ground a large portion of it was clear cut and is now thick briars and another large track was select cut and is all tops.  Should be a deer haven


    thick briars... what kind of plants are they.... are you sure deer eat them ???
    all tops.... what does that mean....  the only good tops of trees left in the woods does is provide a means for protecting some of the new growths... after the leaves are gone deer usually do not find much to eat off tops...

    Do you have 3-5 foot oak trees, maples in that range, cucumber trees, tulip populars ??????

    Or do you have the regular stuff that grows that does not provide good food..

    ferns, birch, fire cherry, striped maple etc.
    Deer are herbivores. They eat plants. To be more
    precise, deer are browsers, meaning that their primary
    food is the new growth on trees and shrubs. Deer, like
    people, have preferred foods and will select those they
    like first. After all the preferred plants are gone, deer
    will then move onto those they like less. It’s a little like
    one of those cereal variety packs. After all the “Fruit
    Loops” are gone, you eventually get to the bran flakes.
    But deer also are nibblers, just like people. They sample
    a little of this, and a little of that when foraging, unless, of course, they’re loading up on acorns in the fall.
    Deer feed on plants from the forest floor up to a height of about six feet, which they reach by standing on
    their hind legs. If there are too many deer in an area for the amount of available food, they will over-browse the
    vegetation. In over-browsed areas, deer have eaten so much of the understory that, as you look through a forest,
    you can see the difference in the amount of “green” above versus below the whitetail’s six-foot reach, commonly
    called the “browse line.”
     
    post edited by Dr. Trout - 2008/10/29 09:52:44
    #17
    Dr. Trout
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    RE: How does everyone feel about herd size? 2008/10/29 10:09:09 (permalink)
    Here is a photo of an area that was cut a couple years ago.. NO FENCE was erected.... because HR lowered the number of deer here ...notice all the new growths in the range of a browsing deer... mostly oaks and maples growing here..

    I am not sure it would be a place to see lots of deer yet.. most left this area before the cutting for lack of food.... and alot have not returned yet...

    I have seen signs of browsing deer here, so I know there are a few deer using this area as a food source ... I'd keep an eye on the area but would not make it one of my best prospect for this year...

    DO YOU HUNT AN AREA LIKE THIS ????

    post edited by Dr. Trout - 2008/10/29 10:11:39
    #18
    Dr. Trout
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    RE: How does everyone feel about herd size? 2008/10/29 10:31:22 (permalink)
    Or are you hunting an area like this....
     

     
    This is my #1 squirrel area and it has always been that way. In years past it was great for deer (70s and 80s)  I started seeing fewer and fewer deer in the 90s and until lately I had no idea why.... they were eating themselves out of house and home... as the photo shows there is little to none in the browsing range for deer....
     
    the only growth in that range I found was birch, striped maple, some beech (most hedged off at about 8 inches though) and some witch hazel...
     
    Lots of very mature Oaks and conifers in the area and that keeps the squirrels fed...  but does not allow any fallen acorns to re-generate...
     
    My guess is there still may be a few deer in the area keeping it at the state it is now... or else there would be some signs of re growth...
     
    But I have not seen one here since 1998....
     
    and in NO WAY would I hunt deer near here..........
    #19
    MuskyMastr
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    RE: How does everyone feel about herd size? 2008/10/29 15:38:31 (permalink)
    The kind of poor logging showin in the first picture is part of the habitat problem
     
    If you have briars (not multiflora rose), but rubus allegheniensis or R. occidentalis or R. idaeus (allegheney blackberry, black raspberry or red raspberry) then you have one of the most protien rich and preferred browse species around.  My area in 2F is loaded with these plants which suggests low deer density and decent regeneration, however the undesirable woody species are still the dominant shrub, strange.

    Better too far back, than too far forward.
    #20
    Dr. Trout
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    RE: How does everyone feel about herd size? 2008/10/29 18:56:42 (permalink)
    Here's a couple more pics of that first area..

    notice the new growths of these oaks, tulips, maple, and some good shrubs .. also NO FENCE..



    I like this pic.. notice you can NOT see 100 yards into the woods as you walk along this "road"


    post edited by Dr. Trout - 2008/10/29 18:59:11
    #21
    Big Fathead
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    RE: How does everyone feel about herd size? 2008/10/29 22:08:25 (permalink)
    I actually am seeing a fair number of deer where I hunt in 2D BUT we stopped doe hunting 4 years ago. This is all private land and it is making a difference. If hunters would use their brains instead of their rifles we could control the herd without the Game Commission. Every year I watch the trailers or deer carriers going up the road with 2 or 3 yearlings on them That Stinks! Hopefully the new 2nd week doe hunt helps this year. I do think the rainy weather last year the first day contributed to the herd being a little better this year. Good Luck to all and I pray the Game Commission comes to there senses!  
    #22
    jlh42581
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    RE: How does everyone feel about herd size? 2008/10/30 07:43:53 (permalink)
    Doc youre comparing summer pictures to fall. Maybe 100 yards was exaggerated but i bet you could see into those woods now. When i say i can see 100 yrds, that doesnt mean i could see a deer at 100 yrds.

    Just how far do you think 100 yrds is? I can see 100 in your first pic no problem
    post edited by jlh42581 - 2008/10/30 07:44:49
    #23
    bingsbaits
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    RE: How does everyone feel about herd size? 2008/10/30 07:57:03 (permalink)
    You took a picture of ferns in the first picture to show greenery.. Those aren't little trees...

    "There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
     
     


    #24
    Dr. Trout
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    RE: How does everyone feel about herd size? 2008/10/30 08:34:54 (permalink)
    bing needs glasses or a better computer.. there are tons of 3-6 inch oaks growing in there ....
     
    there are ferns growing there for sure but this is the kind of stuff mixed in...
    post edited by Dr. Trout - 2008/10/30 08:38:20
    #25
    bingsbaits
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    RE: How does everyone feel about herd size? 2008/10/30 08:49:28 (permalink)
    Guess bing needs a better comp...lol

    "There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
     
     


    #26
    scaremypsu
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    RE: How does everyone feel about herd size? 2008/10/30 10:53:27 (permalink)
    That is sassafrass not oak, however it is still browsed on the top.  Didn't know deer ate them.
    post edited by scaremypsu - 2008/10/30 10:54:05
    #27
    Dr. Trout
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    RE: How does everyone feel about herd size? 2008/10/30 13:40:04 (permalink)
    I guess I should not have used that photo.... true it is not oak but there is Oak growing there.. I used it just to show the size... that's why in the pic questioned it's hard to see the oaks and other trees....
    #28
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